Warriors exploring S&T for Kuminga

[vvoland]

Yep, completely on Kerr that kuminga can’t shoot, or rebound at an average level. Or play defense.

Damn Kerr.

I have a thesis that JK shoots better (from 3 and the line) when he plays more minutes. I can't find splits by minutes played, does anyone know where I can find that? I'm curious what his shooting %s look like when he plays <20 mins vs >20 mins.

I may be wrong here, but wouldn't he be playing a different role with more minutes, as in he's supposed to be looking for his shot (being one of the main options) vs playing less minutes and supposedly playing more as a role-player in support of the other top options on the court?

Depends on who he's playing with.


I also think 3pt and FT %s are higher when he plays with more confidence that his minutes won't get yanked if he misses a jumper early in the clock. I haven't found a way to test this.

[Onus]

I have a thesis that JK shoots better (from 3 and the line) when he plays more minutes. I can't find splits by minutes played, does anyone know where I can find that? I'm curious what his shooting %s look like when he plays <20 mins vs >20 mins.

I may be wrong here, but wouldn't he be playing a different role with more minutes, as in he's supposed to be looking for his shot (being one of the main options) vs playing less minutes and supposedly playing more as a role-player in support of the other top options on the court?

Depends on who he's playing with.


I also think 3pt and FT %s are higher when he plays with more confidence that his minutes won't get yanked if he misses a jumper early in the clock. I haven't found a way to test this.

You won't be able to really control for that since if he's playing well (scoring well) he's more likely to get more playing time than if he's playing poorly and then he'll get less playing time.

[vvoland]

I may be wrong here, but wouldn't he be playing a different role with more minutes, as in he's supposed to be looking for his shot (being one of the main options) vs playing less minutes and supposedly playing more as a role-player in support of the other top options on the court?

Depends on who he's playing with.


I also think 3pt and FT %s are higher when he plays with more confidence that his minutes won't get yanked if he misses a jumper early in the clock. I haven't found a way to test this.

You won't be able to really control for that since if he's playing well (scoring well) he's more likely to get more playing time than if he's playing poorly and then he'll get less playing time.

I think with a few exceptions, the minutes are pre-determined. I think there's a chance to earn an extra shift in the 2nd half but, for the most part, it's all set up beforehand. You may lose a shift or all 2nd half minutes if you play poorly but I don't think "playing well", whatever that means to Kerr, means JK gets 35 minutes when he was slated for 15, pregame.

When JK plays 25+ minutes, it's a lineup change, an injury, suspension, or something else that's a drastic change. I just think the shooting %s are highly susceptible to minutes/confidence issues and I want to test how much he "can't shoot" vs struggles with confidence.

[Onus]

Depends on who he's playing with.


I also think 3pt and FT %s are higher when he plays with more confidence that his minutes won't get yanked if he misses a jumper early in the clock. I haven't found a way to test this.

You won't be able to really control for that since if he's playing well (scoring well) he's more likely to get more playing time than if he's playing poorly and then he'll get less playing time.

I think with a few exceptions, the minutes are pre-determined. I think there's a chance to earn an extra shift in the 2nd half but, for the most part, it's all set up beforehand. You may lose a shift or all 2nd half minutes if you play poorly but I don't think "playing well", whatever that means to Kerr, means JK gets 35 minutes when he was slated for 15, pregame.

When JK plays 25+ minutes, it's a lineup change, an injury, suspension, or something else that's a drastic change. I just think the shooting %s are highly susceptible to minutes/confidence issues and I want to test how much he "can't shoot" vs struggles with confidence.

The 25+ mpg is really only applying to the last 14 games/playoffs. Otherwise JK was playing 30 regularly unless he was playing terribly.

You don't really get yanked for missing shots in the regular season. You get yanked for going off script and not following game plans.

[vvoland]

You won't be able to really control for that since if he's playing well (scoring well) he's more likely to get more playing time than if he's playing poorly and then he'll get less playing time.

I think with a few exceptions, the minutes are pre-determined. I think there's a chance to earn an extra shift in the 2nd half but, for the most part, it's all set up beforehand. You may lose a shift or all 2nd half minutes if you play poorly but I don't think "playing well", whatever that means to Kerr, means JK gets 35 minutes when he was slated for 15, pregame.

When JK plays 25+ minutes, it's a lineup change, an injury, suspension, or something else that's a drastic change. I just think the shooting %s are highly susceptible to minutes/confidence issues and I want to test how much he "can't shoot" vs struggles with confidence.

The 25+ mpg is really only applying to the last 14 games/playoffs. Otherwise JK was playing 30 regularly unless he was playing terribly.

You don't really get yanked for missing shots in the regular season. You get yanked for going off script and not following game plans.

You mean, this season? If so, the last 14, plus the 35 games he missed, means there were ~30 games he played in before the injury. I just looked at the box score and in

Oct - 2 games under 20 mins, 2 games over 25 mins. one at 22.

Nov - 5 games under 20 mins, 5 games over 25, 1 w/ exactly 25 mins

Dec - 0 games under 20 mins, 1 game under 25 mins, 12 games over 25 mins, 8 games with 30 mins or more.

Looks to me like he started playing decent minutes on a consistent basis only in Dec; after being yanked around in the first 18 games.

[Onus]

I think with a few exceptions, the minutes are pre-determined. I think there's a chance to earn an extra shift in the 2nd half but, for the most part, it's all set up beforehand. You may lose a shift or all 2nd half minutes if you play poorly but I don't think "playing well", whatever that means to Kerr, means JK gets 35 minutes when he was slated for 15, pregame.

When JK plays 25+ minutes, it's a lineup change, an injury, suspension, or something else that's a drastic change. I just think the shooting %s are highly susceptible to minutes/confidence issues and I want to test how much he "can't shoot" vs struggles with confidence.

The 25+ mpg is really only applying to the last 14 games/playoffs. Otherwise JK was playing 30 regularly unless he was playing terribly.

You don't really get yanked for missing shots in the regular season. You get yanked for going off script and not following game plans.

You mean, this season? If so, the last 14, plus the 35 games he missed, means there were ~30 games he played in before the injury. I just looked at the box score and in

Oct - 2 games under 20 mins, 2 games over 25 mins. one at 22.

Nov - 5 games under 20 mins, 5 games over 25, 1 w/ exactly 25 mins

Dec - 0 games under 20 mins, 1 game under 25 mins, 12 games over 25 mins, 8 games with 30 mins or more.

Looks to me like he started playing decent minutes on a consistent basis only in Dec; after being yanked around in the first 18 games.

You mean like when he started and the starting lineup was digging us double digit deficits in every game?

[vvoland]

The 25+ mpg is really only applying to the last 14 games/playoffs. Otherwise JK was playing 30 regularly unless he was playing terribly.

You don't really get yanked for missing shots in the regular season. You get yanked for going off script and not following game plans.

You mean, this season? If so, the last 14, plus the 35 games he missed, means there were ~30 games he played in before the injury. I just looked at the box score and in

Oct - 2 games under 20 mins, 2 games over 25 mins. one at 22.

Nov - 5 games under 20 mins, 5 games over 25, 1 w/ exactly 25 mins

Dec - 0 games under 20 mins, 1 game under 25 mins, 12 games over 25 mins, 8 games with 30 mins or more.

Looks to me like he started playing decent minutes on a consistent basis only in Dec; after being yanked around in the first 18 games.

You mean like when he started and the starting lineup was digging us double digit deficits in every game?

Huh? I'm just saying that your assumption of "JK was playing 30 regularly unless he was playing terribly" isn't borne out by the facts. He only started getting regular minutes in Dec. I'm not saying they went well or that Kerr should have stuck with it after the injury. Just that he wasn't getting consistent minutes 'unless he was playing terribly'

If you want to switch topics and discuss his ability to fit with our other starters, sure. I think the lineup data says plenty on that topic. To summarize, JK fit very well with Steph/Dray this season, even when playing with Wigs. The lineups that had JK/Steph/Dray AND podz + buddy or moses did exceptionally well.

But that was not the point I was trying to make (or learn about, actually). It was JK's minutes and how those minutes impact his shooting %s.

How can you believe the "you don't really get yanked for missing shots in the regular season" trope, when, for the last 4 seasons, we've seen JK get yanked for that exact thing. We've had articles written about it. Kerr has spoken about it. Yet, you still don't believe it to be the case? Sure, most of the conversation has centered on JK taking those shots, not missing them. Considering how much Kerr values shooting, especially from 3, you think there would be this much hand-wringing about JK's shot selection if he shot 38% from 3, not 32%?

[DB23]

I have a thesis that JK shoots better (from 3 and the line) when he plays more minutes. I can't find splits by minutes played, does anyone know where I can find that? I'm curious what his shooting %s look like when he plays <20 mins vs >20 mins.

I may be wrong here, but wouldn't he be playing a different role with more minutes, as in he's supposed to be looking for his shot (being one of the main options) vs playing less minutes and supposedly playing more as a role-player in support of the other top options on the court?

Depends on who he's playing with.


I also think 3pt and FT %s are higher when he plays with more confidence that his minutes won't get yanked if he misses a jumper early in the clock. I haven't found a way to test this.

Just more squinting to see the positives.

The sample size is large enough to show he hasn’t been a good shooter at all so far. For you to insinuate that if only Kerr played him more minutes, he would show he is a better shooter is pretty ridiculous IMO. That’s not to say he can’t improve if he puts in a ton of work. But to put it on Kerr that he sucked as a shooter in 25 mins per game BUT only if he was playing 35 we would see the real kuminga. Wild.

Great basketball players don’t need the ideal conditions to show their talent. They just impact winning on the court. Again, I don’t get why people absolve him of trying on defense and rebounding effort.

[vvoland]

I may be wrong here, but wouldn't he be playing a different role with more minutes, as in he's supposed to be looking for his shot (being one of the main options) vs playing less minutes and supposedly playing more as a role-player in support of the other top options on the court?

Depends on who he's playing with.


I also think 3pt and FT %s are higher when he plays with more confidence that his minutes won't get yanked if he misses a jumper early in the clock. I haven't found a way to test this.

Just more squinting to see the positives.

The sample size is large enough to show he hasn’t been a good shooter at all so far. For you to insinuate that if only Kerr played him more minutes, he would show he is a better shooter is pretty ridiculous IMO. That’s not to say he can’t improve if he puts in a ton of work. But to put it on Kerr that he sucked as a shooter in 25 mins per game BUT only if he was playing 35 we would see the real kuminga. Wild.

Great basketball players don’t need the ideal conditions to show their talent. They just impact winning on the court. Again, I don’t get why people absolve him of trying on defense and rebounding effort.

Your bias is showing. I'm not insinuating a damn thing - I have a thesis and am looking for data to prove/disprove it. I'm also disputing the assertion that it's a chicken/egg thing in that he doesn't play more when he shoots/scores well as most of the rotation minutes are set prior to the game.

I tend to think that shooting is more mental than physical, with a few notable exceptions (mostly for centers, ben simmons, markelle fultz, etc.). I also think that a player that shot 37% from 3 for a full season and 75% from the line isn't the lost cause some are making him out to be in that department.

Not sure why you switched to rebounding or defense but while i agree he really needs to work on the latter, I'm guessing his defense is not an issue with effort. On ball, he's about average league wide, and, probably, slightly above average for his age (22). Off ball, he's not good. Is that due to effort or bball iq or something else? Not sure. He had some great rotations as the low man and is one of the few players we have that can actually challenge at the rim. He is also often lost navigating screens, especially off ball, and does not look like he communicates well out there.

You seem to confuse my search for understanding the data better with a preconceived notion that JK is a good shooter or is great or whatever. Instead, I'm trying to figure out why someone as talented as he seems to be is having such and up and down career. For most posters here, it's almost all down, but that is where i disagree.

[DB23]

Depends on who he's playing with.


I also think 3pt and FT %s are higher when he plays with more confidence that his minutes won't get yanked if he misses a jumper early in the clock. I haven't found a way to test this.

Just more squinting to see the positives.

The sample size is large enough to show he hasn’t been a good shooter at all so far. For you to insinuate that if only Kerr played him more minutes, he would show he is a better shooter is pretty ridiculous IMO. That’s not to say he can’t improve if he puts in a ton of work. But to put it on Kerr that he sucked as a shooter in 25 mins per game BUT only if he was playing 35 we would see the real kuminga. Wild.

Great basketball players don’t need the ideal conditions to show their talent. They just impact winning on the court. Again, I don’t get why people absolve him of trying on defense and rebounding effort.

Your bias is showing. I'm not insinuating a damn thing - I have a thesis and am looking for data to prove/disprove it. I'm also disputing the assertion that it's a chicken/egg thing in that he doesn't play more when he shoots/scores well as most of the rotation minutes are set prior to the game.

I tend to think that shooting is more mental than physical, with a few notable exceptions (mostly for centers, ben simmons, markelle fultz, etc.). I also think that a player that shot 37% from 3 for a full season and 75% from the line isn't the lost cause some are making him out to be in that department.

Not sure why you switched to rebounding or defense but while i agree he really needs to work on the latter, I'm guessing his defense is not an issue with effort. On ball, he's about average league wide, and, probably, slightly above average for his age (22). Off ball, he's not good. Is that due to effort or bball iq or something else? Not sure. He had some great rotations as the low man and is one of the few players we have that can actually challenge at the rim. He is also often lost navigating screens, especially off ball, and does not look like he communicates well out there.

You seem to confuse my search for understanding the data better with a preconceived notion that JK is a good shooter or is great or whatever. Instead, I'm trying to figure out why someone as talented as he seems to be is having such and up and down career. For most posters here, it's almost all down, but that is where i disagree.

Fair enough.

But why is he considered talented? Just athletic ability? I’m obviously really down on him because it’s like I’m watching a different game to some posters and pundits half the time. I don’t see it or understand it so would love to know in what ways kuminga is talented.

Just to add- I’m defining talented as well above average/ top ten percentile at certain skill sets.

[vvoland]

Just more squinting to see the positives.

The sample size is large enough to show he hasn’t been a good shooter at all so far. For you to insinuate that if only Kerr played him more minutes, he would show he is a better shooter is pretty ridiculous IMO. That’s not to say he can’t improve if he puts in a ton of work. But to put it on Kerr that he sucked as a shooter in 25 mins per game BUT only if he was playing 35 we would see the real kuminga. Wild.

Great basketball players don’t need the ideal conditions to show their talent. They just impact winning on the court. Again, I don’t get why people absolve him of trying on defense and rebounding effort.

Your bias is showing. I'm not insinuating a damn thing - I have a thesis and am looking for data to prove/disprove it. I'm also disputing the assertion that it's a chicken/egg thing in that he doesn't play more when he shoots/scores well as most of the rotation minutes are set prior to the game.

I tend to think that shooting is more mental than physical, with a few notable exceptions (mostly for centers, ben simmons, markelle fultz, etc.). I also think that a player that shot 37% from 3 for a full season and 75% from the line isn't the lost cause some are making him out to be in that department.

Not sure why you switched to rebounding or defense but while i agree he really needs to work on the latter, I'm guessing his defense is not an issue with effort. On ball, he's about average league wide, and, probably, slightly above average for his age (22). Off ball, he's not good. Is that due to effort or bball iq or something else? Not sure. He had some great rotations as the low man and is one of the few players we have that can actually challenge at the rim. He is also often lost navigating screens, especially off ball, and does not look like he communicates well out there.

You seem to confuse my search for understanding the data better with a preconceived notion that JK is a good shooter or is great or whatever. Instead, I'm trying to figure out why someone as talented as he seems to be is having such and up and down career. For most posters here, it's almost all down, but that is where i disagree.

Fair enough.

But why is he considered talented? Just athletic ability? I’m obviously really down on him because it’s like I’m watching a different game to some posters and pundits half the time. I don’t see it or understand it so would love to know in what ways kuminga is talented.

talent and production are different things but I'll share what I first saw in JK that made me hope we would pick him with the Wolves pick we had.

Size & Speed. I thought it was a rare combination of size and speed that is as good a foundation to build on as anything else that isn't skill

Great leaper off 2 feet, very good leaper of 1 foot, either one. Again, that's not as common as some might assume.

Power to go through defenders and quickness to go around them.

Good form on the J. I was often confused why he shot so poorly from the line. He's had a career high 75% FT season last year and that was after starting the season in the low 60s. He had long stretches when he shot the ball well from FT and from 3. If he ever gets consistent in those two areas, sky's the limit.

Handle and agility. I thought he had a very strong handle in the g-league, for an 18 yo. Unfortunately, haven't seen a ton of improvement in that until this season. It's still not super tight and he isn't deliberate enough with the dribble (or any of this offensive moves, tbh) but the potential was there.

In essence, I was hoping for a kawhi leonard or jalen brown type of growth/development. I still think the biggest issues he's had are the number of different roles he's been asked to fill in his first 4 years, the lack of rope to make mistakes, and the fact that no one on this coaching staff has any confidence in him.

I really wouldn't be shocked if he became a knockdown shooter on his next team, especially as the weight of expectations and the looking over his shoulder after very mistake are both gone. That's why I'm trying to find his shooting splits based on minutes per game.

[DB23]

Your bias is showing. I'm not insinuating a damn thing - I have a thesis and am looking for data to prove/disprove it. I'm also disputing the assertion that it's a chicken/egg thing in that he doesn't play more when he shoots/scores well as most of the rotation minutes are set prior to the game.

I tend to think that shooting is more mental than physical, with a few notable exceptions (mostly for centers, ben simmons, markelle fultz, etc.). I also think that a player that shot 37% from 3 for a full season and 75% from the line isn't the lost cause some are making him out to be in that department.

Not sure why you switched to rebounding or defense but while i agree he really needs to work on the latter, I'm guessing his defense is not an issue with effort. On ball, he's about average league wide, and, probably, slightly above average for his age (22). Off ball, he's not good. Is that due to effort or bball iq or something else? Not sure. He had some great rotations as the low man and is one of the few players we have that can actually challenge at the rim. He is also often lost navigating screens, especially off ball, and does not look like he communicates well out there.

You seem to confuse my search for understanding the data better with a preconceived notion that JK is a good shooter or is great or whatever. Instead, I'm trying to figure out why someone as talented as he seems to be is having such and up and down career. For most posters here, it's almost all down, but that is where i disagree.

Fair enough.

But why is he considered talented? Just athletic ability? I’m obviously really down on him because it’s like I’m watching a different game to some posters and pundits half the time. I don’t see it or understand it so would love to know in what ways kuminga is talented.

talent and production are different things but I'll share what I first saw in JK that made me hope we would pick him with the Wolves pick we had.

Size & Speed. I thought it was a rare combination of size and speed that is as good a foundation to build on as anything else that isn't skill

Great leaper off 2 feet, very good leaper of 1 foot, either one. Again, that's not as common as some might assume.

Power to go through defenders and quickness to go around them.

Good form on the J. I was often confused why he shot so poorly from the line. He's had a career high 75% FT season last year and that was after starting the season in the low 60s. He had long stretches when he shot the ball well from FT and from 3. If he ever gets consistent in those two areas, sky's the limit.

Handle and agility. I thought he had a very strong handle in the g-league, for an 18 yo. Unfortunately, haven't seen a ton of improvement in that until this season. It's still not super tight and he isn't deliberate enough with the dribble (or any of this offensive moves, tbh) but the potential was there.

In essence, I was hoping for a kawhi leonard or jalen brown type of growth/development. I still think the biggest issues he's had are the number of different roles he's been asked to fill in his first 4 years, the lack of rope to make mistakes, and the fact that no one on this coaching staff has any confidence in him.

I really wouldn't be shocked if he became a knockdown shooter on his next team, especially as the weight of expectations and the looking over his shoulder after very mistake are both gone. That's why I'm trying to find his shooting splits based on minutes per game.

Most of your the things you list are related to him being an athlete. Which I agree, he’s a top talented athlete.

But he’s shown almost no talent as a basketball player. He’s a great athlete playing basketball right now.

Jumper looks ok but pretty average form to me. Put it this way, I’m more surprised with moody not shooting at an elite level because his J looks better than kuminga’s imo. I’d be shocked if he became a knockdown shooter except if he’s purely a role player. Because right now he’s getting easy looks. If he goes to a team like the nets and is a 1 or 2 option then he’s more likely to go backwards imo as the looks will be tougher.

I think his handle is below average. He has no rhythm with it, it’s power dribble and jump.

Basically, you are saying he has no talented basketball skills outside his athletic ability? Happy for others to make the argument.

This is not to say he can’t improve, but he’ll need to put in a ton of work.

[vvoland]

Fair enough.

But why is he considered talented? Just athletic ability? I’m obviously really down on him because it’s like I’m watching a different game to some posters and pundits half the time. I don’t see it or understand it so would love to know in what ways kuminga is talented.

talent and production are different things but I'll share what I first saw in JK that made me hope we would pick him with the Wolves pick we had.

Size & Speed. I thought it was a rare combination of size and speed that is as good a foundation to build on as anything else that isn't skill

Great leaper off 2 feet, very good leaper of 1 foot, either one. Again, that's not as common as some might assume.

Power to go through defenders and quickness to go around them.

Good form on the J. I was often confused why he shot so poorly from the line. He's had a career high 75% FT season last year and that was after starting the season in the low 60s. He had long stretches when he shot the ball well from FT and from 3. If he ever gets consistent in those two areas, sky's the limit.

Handle and agility. I thought he had a very strong handle in the g-league, for an 18 yo. Unfortunately, haven't seen a ton of improvement in that until this season. It's still not super tight and he isn't deliberate enough with the dribble (or any of this offensive moves, tbh) but the potential was there.

In essence, I was hoping for a kawhi leonard or jalen brown type of growth/development. I still think the biggest issues he's had are the number of different roles he's been asked to fill in his first 4 years, the lack of rope to make mistakes, and the fact that no one on this coaching staff has any confidence in him.

I really wouldn't be shocked if he became a knockdown shooter on his next team, especially as the weight of expectations and the looking over his shoulder after very mistake are both gone. That's why I'm trying to find his shooting splits based on minutes per game.

Most of your the things you list are related to him being an athlete. Which I agree, he’s a top talented athlete.

But he’s shown almost no talent as a basketball player. He’s a great athlete playing basketball right now.

Jumper looks ok but pretty average form to me. Put it this way, I’m more surprised with moody not shooting at an elite level because his J looks better than kuminga’s imo. I’d be shocked if he became a knockdown shooter except if he’s purely a role player. Because right now he’s getting easy looks. If he goes to a team like the nets and is a 1 or 2 option then he’s more likely to go backwards imo as the looks will be tougher.

I think his handle is below average. He has no rhythm with it, it’s power dribble and jump.

Basically, you are saying he has no talented basketball skills outside his athletic ability? Happy for others to make the argument.

This is not to say he can’t improve, but he’ll need to put in a ton of work.

You asked why I think he's talented. I think his talent is physical. More physically limited players have more skill based talents. Everything I said above about JK could have been said about Brown and Kawhi coming out of college, except the jumper thing - neither of them could shoot as a teenager.

Moody's shot always looked suspect to me. Like he was aiming it and how long the motion was and the slow release never gave me confidence he'd become a shooter. Hope the thumb is why he turned into a pumpkin late in the year but I think it's mostly between the ears.

[DB23]

talent and production are different things but I'll share what I first saw in JK that made me hope we would pick him with the Wolves pick we had.

Size & Speed. I thought it was a rare combination of size and speed that is as good a foundation to build on as anything else that isn't skill

Great leaper off 2 feet, very good leaper of 1 foot, either one. Again, that's not as common as some might assume.

Power to go through defenders and quickness to go around them.

Good form on the J. I was often confused why he shot so poorly from the line. He's had a career high 75% FT season last year and that was after starting the season in the low 60s. He had long stretches when he shot the ball well from FT and from 3. If he ever gets consistent in those two areas, sky's the limit.

Handle and agility. I thought he had a very strong handle in the g-league, for an 18 yo. Unfortunately, haven't seen a ton of improvement in that until this season. It's still not super tight and he isn't deliberate enough with the dribble (or any of this offensive moves, tbh) but the potential was there.

In essence, I was hoping for a kawhi leonard or jalen brown type of growth/development. I still think the biggest issues he's had are the number of different roles he's been asked to fill in his first 4 years, the lack of rope to make mistakes, and the fact that no one on this coaching staff has any confidence in him.

I really wouldn't be shocked if he became a knockdown shooter on his next team, especially as the weight of expectations and the looking over his shoulder after very mistake are both gone. That's why I'm trying to find his shooting splits based on minutes per game.

Most of your the things you list are related to him being an athlete. Which I agree, he’s a top talented athlete.

But he’s shown almost no talent as a basketball player. He’s a great athlete playing basketball right now.

Jumper looks ok but pretty average form to me. Put it this way, I’m more surprised with moody not shooting at an elite level because his J looks better than kuminga’s imo. I’d be shocked if he became a knockdown shooter except if he’s purely a role player. Because right now he’s getting easy looks. If he goes to a team like the nets and is a 1 or 2 option then he’s more likely to go backwards imo as the looks will be tougher.

I think his handle is below average. He has no rhythm with it, it’s power dribble and jump.

Basically, you are saying he has no talented basketball skills outside his athletic ability? Happy for others to make the argument.

This is not to say he can’t improve, but he’ll need to put in a ton of work.

You asked why I think he's talented. I think his talent is physical. More physically limited players have more skill based talents. Everything I said above about JK could have been said about Brown and Kawhi coming out of college, except the jumper thing - neither of them could shoot as a teenager.

Moody's shot always looked suspect to me. Like he was aiming it and how long the motion was and the slow release never gave me confidence he'd become a shooter. Hope the thumb is why he turned into a pumpkin late in the year but I think it's mostly between the ears.

Actually I think you could add several other basketball related skills to a write up of both brown and kawhi at the same age. His development curve is nothing alike and my biggest concern with kuminga is that he just doesn’t seem to have the bbiq on either side of the ball.

But yes he could fix his shot like kawhi, it wouldn’t be wild but also seems more the exception than the norm with players of his profile.

[vvoland]

Most of your the things you list are related to him being an athlete. Which I agree, he’s a top talented athlete.

But he’s shown almost no talent as a basketball player. He’s a great athlete playing basketball right now.

Jumper looks ok but pretty average form to me. Put it this way, I’m more surprised with moody not shooting at an elite level because his J looks better than kuminga’s imo. I’d be shocked if he became a knockdown shooter except if he’s purely a role player. Because right now he’s getting easy looks. If he goes to a team like the nets and is a 1 or 2 option then he’s more likely to go backwards imo as the looks will be tougher.

I think his handle is below average. He has no rhythm with it, it’s power dribble and jump.

Basically, you are saying he has no talented basketball skills outside his athletic ability? Happy for others to make the argument.

This is not to say he can’t improve, but he’ll need to put in a ton of work.

You asked why I think he's talented. I think his talent is physical. More physically limited players have more skill based talents. Everything I said above about JK could have been said about Brown and Kawhi coming out of college, except the jumper thing - neither of them could shoot as a teenager.

Moody's shot always looked suspect to me. Like he was aiming it and how long the motion was and the slow release never gave me confidence he'd become a shooter. Hope the thumb is why he turned into a pumpkin late in the year but I think it's mostly between the ears.

Actually I think you could add several other basketball related skills to a write up of both brown and kawhi at the same age. His development curve is nothing alike and my biggest concern with kuminga is that he just doesn’t seem to have the bbiq on either side of the ball.

But yes he could fix his shot like kawhi, it wouldn’t be wild but also seems more the exception than the norm with players of his profile.

what did you have in mind? I don't watch much CBB but both were touted as raw athletes with defensive upside and limited offensive potential. Kawhi def blew past that, Brown, not yet.

[Onus]

https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/s/AKFh9MA0Me

According to this graphic jk is the 13th worst and dray is 30th

[vvoland]

https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/s/AKFh9MA0Me

According to this graphic jk is the 13th worst and dray is 30th

??? Jk is not on that list at all while TJD is 4th worst.

[vvoland]

https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/s/AKFh9MA0Me

According to this graphic jk is the 13th worst and dray is 30th

??? Jk is not on that list at all while TJD is 4th worst.

Nevermind, i saw the 2nd graphic. Funny it has giannis at the top of that list. I don't really consider him a negative offensive player but that graphic certainly makes it seem that way.

[Onus]

https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/s/AKFh9MA0Me

According to this graphic jk is the 13th worst and dray is 30th

??? Jk is not on that list at all while TJD is 4th worst.

Scroll to the 2nd image. 1st image is finishing 2nd image is shooting.

[DB23]

You asked why I think he's talented. I think his talent is physical. More physically limited players have more skill based talents. Everything I said above about JK could have been said about Brown and Kawhi coming out of college, except the jumper thing - neither of them could shoot as a teenager.

Moody's shot always looked suspect to me. Like he was aiming it and how long the motion was and the slow release never gave me confidence he'd become a shooter. Hope the thumb is why he turned into a pumpkin late in the year but I think it's mostly between the ears.

Actually I think you could add several other basketball related skills to a write up of both brown and kawhi at the same age. His development curve is nothing alike and my biggest concern with kuminga is that he just doesn’t seem to have the bbiq on either side of the ball.

But yes he could fix his shot like kawhi, it wouldn’t be wild but also seems more the exception than the norm with players of his profile.

what did you have in mind? I don't watch much CBB but both were touted as raw athletes with defensive upside and limited offensive potential. Kawhi def blew past that, Brown, not yet.

Defense is actually exactly what I had in mind. I watched more kawhi than brown at that age. But kawhi basically came in and blew everyone’s expectations out of the water on the defensive side. And most importantly, he looked like he belonged on the court, contributing to winning pretty much straight away.

So it seems we are asking a lot. Kuminga not only needs to tread the narrow path to being a knockdown shooter, he also needs to learn to dribble, defend and pass.

But I guess it depends what your expectations are. For me, I think he could be a really good role player if he accepts his role. Superstar is out of the question, he’s more likely to be out of the league in 3 years than become a kawhi level superstar.