2025 WESTERN CONFERENCE FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #6 Minnesota Timberwolves (OKC leads 3-1)

[Andri]

Offense was all right for Minny. The problems were defense, turnovers and protecting the rebounds. I noticed a lack of aggression. Randle exemplified these issues.

So if I were OKC, I won't be comfortable on how they defended. It could work both ways, if Minny keeps producing on the offensive side as much, and they don't have such a good all around contribution, they would lose.

So I still expect lots of adjustments from both teams.

[Patches Perry]

This thread is about OKC vs. MN.

- One team has a decided and objective advantage in this series with flopping.
- I'm just wondering why some OKC fans can't own it... just because it's their favorite team/player?

Source: trust me bro

Ha. Fair enough.

You're not interested in a serious discussion in good faith. You're just one of THOSE types of posters. All good. Now I know.

Good faith discussion is not possible on a bad faith claim. Conspiracies should be mocked, not taken seriously. Hopefully that helps you understand where I'm coming from.

[Patches Perry]

Right now, it's the Timberwolves vs. Thunder... so the "whataboutisms" don't cut it.

The egregious flopping in this series has been decidedly one-sided.

[Note: Every NBA team has about a dozen coaches. There's no reason why MN shouldn't have one solely dedicated to helping Edwards learn the nuances of FT merchantry. As teams fight and scramble for fractions of differences around the margins... the Timberwolves have multiple points every game sitting there... available. I think we'll be seeing it more flopping from Edwards next year.]

It's not whataboutism to compare how people react differently to different players doing the same thing (as recently as like 10 days ago) to conclude that maybe these are not principled objections for many of the loudest ones.

if you are going to mention Jokic and his flopping compared to FTA, then you should also mention how they were guarded in that series. But we both know you wont. Because no one should be able to touch your guy and Jokic should be mauled so he cant receive the ball because reasons.

So please stop invoking Jokic in further FTA conversation.

I know you have arbitrary justifications for why it's OK for Jokic to flop but SGA should be locked up for it. That's kind of my point.

[whatisacenter]

SGA's 110 FTA through 12 postseason games rank 406th all time.

People need to get over it and stop making it out to be something that it isn't.

[KyRo23]

SGA's 110 FTA through 12 postseason games rank 406th all time.

People need to get over it and stop making it out to be something that it isn't.

I don't disgaree really, but I think people are more complaining about the quality over quantity. He does bait a ton, but doesn't always get the call which is good

[MoneyTalks41890]

If you are going to flail to the ground and act like you took an elbow to the chin only to have the refs go look at the monitor and see there was no contact and just a great acting job that should be a foul on the flopper.

Any examples of Shai doing this?

[The Master]

I don't disgaree really, but I think people are more complaining about the quality over quantity. He does bait a ton, but doesn't always get the call which is good

If the consensus was 'SGA is a certified baiter and sometimes gets a phantom call' - more or less everyone would've agreed with that, the fact that this is no 1 (?) topic of discussion in the playoffs (!) is ridiculous.

Nuggets were +17, Wolves are +2 in terms of FTA in the series, SGA getting ~9 FTA throughout the whole season is in line with MVP-level volume scorers on perimeter.

So if I were OKC, I won't be comfortable on how they defended. It could work both ways, if Minny keeps producing on the offensive side as much, and they don't have such a good all around contribution, they would lose.

With the level of contemporary offenses, I don't think you can be generally speaking comfortable with your gameplan anyway (it's always about giving up something and top teams are talented enough to punish you on any given day), but if your opponent is in position to eventually outplay you thanks to the offensive output of NAW, DiVincenzo and McDaniels (with all due respect), you're in pretty decent spot, I'd say.

[MrPainfulTruth]

SGA's 110 FTA through 12 postseason games rank 406th all time.

People need to get over it and stop making it out to be something that it isn't.

People are really intellectually incapable of comprehending a more complex discussion than "he is flopping"? So disappointing, man.

The point people are upset about is the combination...

...again, slowly...the COMBINATION...

...of him committing offensive fouls that are NEVER, EVER called, like hooking and his patented pushoff (i honestly dont remember it being called a single time)....

...him obviously flopping without any contact, or creating contact himself by jumping into defenders, contact that wouldnt have happened otherwise, and getting the whistle...

...and - MOST IMPORTANTLY - the violence his team gets away on the other end, where opponents dont seem to be able to play basketball any more, and the refs consistently look away. See Caruso on Jokic for a plastic, visible example that went over several games.

Is that idea so hard to grasp? You cannot talk about his number of free throws alone, because you only address very little of the actual discussion. Do yourself a favor and try to understand the critique as a whole, and THEN come back and explain why we are all wrong saying there are two sets of rules in the officiating of OKC games.

[whatisacenter]

SGA's 110 FTA through 12 postseason games rank 406th all time.

People need to get over it and stop making it out to be something that it isn't.

People are really intellectually incapable of comprehending a more complex discussion than "he is flopping"? So disappointing, man.

The point people are upset about is the combination...

...again, slowly...the COMBINATION...

...of him committing offensive fouls that are NEVER, EVER called, like hooking and his patented pushoff (i honestly dont remember it being called a single time)....

...him obviously flopping without any contact, or creating contact himself by jumping into defenders, contact that wouldnt have happened otherwise, and getting the whistle...

...and - MOST IMPORTANTLY - the violence his team gets away on the other end, where opponents dont seem to be able to play basketball any more, and the refs consistently look away. See Caruso on Jokic for a plastic, visible example that went over several games.

Is that idea so hard to grasp? You cannot talk about his number of free throws alone, because you only address very little of the actual discussion. Do yourself a favor and try to understand the critique as a whole, and THEN come back and explain why we are all wrong saying there are two sets of rules in the officiating of OKC games.

I just think people see what they want to see. He is nowhere near the baiter that Harden was. I just don't see it and I am a neutral fan.

And the "violence" that OKC gets away with is pretty funny.

[MrPainfulTruth]

SGA's 110 FTA through 12 postseason games rank 406th all time.

People need to get over it and stop making it out to be something that it isn't.

People are really intellectually incapable of comprehending a more complex discussion than "he is flopping"? So disappointing, man.

The point people are upset about is the combination...

...again, slowly...the COMBINATION...

...of him committing offensive fouls that are NEVER, EVER called, like hooking and his patented pushoff (i honestly dont remember it being called a single time)....

...him obviously flopping without any contact, or creating contact himself by jumping into defenders, contact that wouldnt have happened otherwise, and getting the whistle...

...and - MOST IMPORTANTLY - the violence his team gets away on the other end, where opponents dont seem to be able to play basketball any more, and the refs consistently look away. See Caruso on Jokic for a plastic, visible example that went over several games.

Is that idea so hard to grasp? You cannot talk about his number of free throws alone, because you only address very little of the actual discussion. Do yourself a favor and try to understand the critique as a whole, and THEN come back and explain why we are all wrong saying there are two sets of rules in the officiating of OKC games.

I just think people see what they want to see. He is nowhere near the baiter that Harden was. I just don't see it and I am a neutral fan.

And the "violence" that OKC gets away with is pretty funny.

As you said, eveyrone sees what they want to see. As i detailed above the issue isnt exclusively his flopping. I also dont agree on the Harden statement. Harden created actual contact. SGA just preemptively flops and falls to the ground on little to no contact.

The double standard has been discussed all season to the degree that two coaches had literal meltdowns in the post game conferences. I dont remember seeing that so concentrated and focussed on one team. They took huge fines but maybe you see more than all of them, and all of us.

[whatisacenter]

People are really intellectually incapable of comprehending a more complex discussion than "he is flopping"? So disappointing, man.

The point people are upset about is the combination...

...again, slowly...the COMBINATION...

...of him committing offensive fouls that are NEVER, EVER called, like hooking and his patented pushoff (i honestly dont remember it being called a single time)....

...him obviously flopping without any contact, or creating contact himself by jumping into defenders, contact that wouldnt have happened otherwise, and getting the whistle...

...and - MOST IMPORTANTLY - the violence his team gets away on the other end, where opponents dont seem to be able to play basketball any more, and the refs consistently look away. See Caruso on Jokic for a plastic, visible example that went over several games.

Is that idea so hard to grasp? You cannot talk about his number of free throws alone, because you only address very little of the actual discussion. Do yourself a favor and try to understand the critique as a whole, and THEN come back and explain why we are all wrong saying there are two sets of rules in the officiating of OKC games.

I just think people see what they want to see. He is nowhere near the baiter that Harden was. I just don't see it and I am a neutral fan.

And the "violence" that OKC gets away with is pretty funny.

As you said, eveyrone sees what they want to see. As i detailed above the issue isnt exclusively his flopping. I also dont agree on the Harden statement. Harden created actual contact. SGA just preemptively flops and falls to the ground on little to no contact.

The double standard has been discussed all season to the degree that two coaches had literal meltdowns in the post game conferences. I dont remember seeing that so concentrated and focussed on one team. They took huge fines but maybe you see more than all of them, and all of us.

That Mr., is the painful truth...

[Marvin Martian]

SGA's 110 FTA through 12 postseason games rank 406th all time.

People need to get over it and stop making it out to be something that it isn't.

FTA just works as a nickname so the NBA community wants to make sure it sticks

[kdthunderup]

SGA's 110 FTA through 12 postseason games rank 406th all time.

People need to get over it and stop making it out to be something that it isn't.

People are really intellectually incapable of comprehending a more complex discussion than "he is flopping"? So disappointing, man.

The point people are upset about is the combination...

...again, slowly...the COMBINATION...

...of him committing offensive fouls that are NEVER, EVER called, like hooking and his patented pushoff (i honestly dont remember it being called a single time)....

...him obviously flopping without any contact, or creating contact himself by jumping into defenders, contact that wouldnt have happened otherwise, and getting the whistle...

...and - MOST IMPORTANTLY - the violence his team gets away on the other end, where opponents dont seem to be able to play basketball any more, and the refs consistently look away. See Caruso on Jokic for a plastic, visible example that went over several games.

Is that idea so hard to grasp? You cannot talk about his number of free throws alone, because you only address very little of the actual discussion. Do yourself a favor and try to understand the critique as a whole, and THEN come back and explain why we are all wrong saying there are two sets of rules in the officiating of OKC games.

We can talk about ethical or unethical flopping but Joker is without a doubt a top 3 flopper in the league. He will flail out his arms on nearly every bit of contact but he is just way better at disguising it because of his size and IQ. He will constantly use slight head jerks and subtle nudges all the time which makes it really hard for the refs to tell if its real contact or he is exaggerating it. Jokic without a doubt flops at the highest frequency in the league, he is just a lot more subtle with it and his size makes it harder for refs to judge.

[LSWF]

SGA's 110 FTA through 12 postseason games rank 406th all time.

People need to get over it and stop making it out to be something that it isn't.

People are really intellectually incapable of comprehending a more complex discussion than "he is flopping"? So disappointing, man.

The point people are upset about is the combination...

...again, slowly...the COMBINATION...

...of him committing offensive fouls that are NEVER, EVER called, like hooking and his patented pushoff (i honestly dont remember it being called a single time)....

...him obviously flopping without any contact, or creating contact himself by jumping into defenders, contact that wouldnt have happened otherwise, and getting the whistle...

...and - MOST IMPORTANTLY - the violence his team gets away on the other end, where opponents dont seem to be able to play basketball any more, and the refs consistently look away. See Caruso on Jokic for a plastic, visible example that went over several games.

Is that idea so hard to grasp? You cannot talk about his number of free throws alone, because you only address very little of the actual discussion. Do yourself a favor and try to understand the critique as a whole, and THEN come back and explain why we are all wrong saying there are two sets of rules in the officiating of OKC games.

We can talk about ethical or unethical flopping but Joker is without a doubt a top 3 flopper in the league. He will flail out his arms on nearly every bit of contact but he is just way better at disguising it because of his size and IQ. He will constantly use slight head jerks and subtle nudges all the time which makes it really hard for the refs to tell if its real contact or he is exaggerating it. Jokic without a doubt flops at the highest frequency in the league, he is just a lot more subtle with it and his size makes it harder for refs to judge.

A truly classic whataboutism

[kdthunderup]

People are really intellectually incapable of comprehending a more complex discussion than "he is flopping"? So disappointing, man.

The point people are upset about is the combination...

...again, slowly...the COMBINATION...

...of him committing offensive fouls that are NEVER, EVER called, like hooking and his patented pushoff (i honestly dont remember it being called a single time)....

...him obviously flopping without any contact, or creating contact himself by jumping into defenders, contact that wouldnt have happened otherwise, and getting the whistle...

...and - MOST IMPORTANTLY - the violence his team gets away on the other end, where opponents dont seem to be able to play basketball any more, and the refs consistently look away. See Caruso on Jokic for a plastic, visible example that went over several games.

Is that idea so hard to grasp? You cannot talk about his number of free throws alone, because you only address very little of the actual discussion. Do yourself a favor and try to understand the critique as a whole, and THEN come back and explain why we are all wrong saying there are two sets of rules in the officiating of OKC games.

We can talk about ethical or unethical flopping but Joker is without a doubt a top 3 flopper in the league. He will flail out his arms on nearly every bit of contact but he is just way better at disguising it because of his size and IQ. He will constantly use slight head jerks and subtle nudges all the time which makes it really hard for the refs to tell if its real contact or he is exaggerating it. Jokic without a doubt flops at the highest frequency in the league, he is just a lot more subtle with it and his size makes it harder for refs to judge.

A truly classic whataboutism

More like a classic case of throwing stones in a glass house. I never said SGA doesn’t exaggerates contact, I just find it ironic when it often coms from fans with some of the biggest flippers in the league.

[Clav]

I think both teams have played really well honestly. It's been close for a lot of the moments, just Twolves have slipped away some chances with TOs. Also, the whistle between both teams has its variance. There will always be some fouls or non-calls etc that we talk about, but MN needs to push past that and execute with more precision. The refs aren't the reason for all the TOs and missed shots each team has managed to rack up.

MN needs to have better games from Randle and Conley to sure up the margins. Edwards must have a stellar game on the road. The bench players need to play just as well on the road as in G4 at home, it will be a big ask. OKC is basically playing the same gameplan, they aren't changing the defensive approach massively, they force teams into pressure and do not give up paint position. As observers we can tell this is creating an imbalance with how the game is called, we cannot control that, Minnesota needs to respond with force.

I root for both teams, so I'm just enjoying this series, wish you could do the same.

[LSWF]

We can talk about ethical or unethical flopping but Joker is without a doubt a top 3 flopper in the league. He will flail out his arms on nearly every bit of contact but he is just way better at disguising it because of his size and IQ. He will constantly use slight head jerks and subtle nudges all the time which makes it really hard for the refs to tell if its real contact or he is exaggerating it. Jokic without a doubt flops at the highest frequency in the league, he is just a lot more subtle with it and his size makes it harder for refs to judge.

A truly classic whataboutism

More like a classic case of throwing stones in a glass house. I never said SGA doesn’t exaggerates contact, I just find it ironic when it often coms from fans with some of the biggest flippers in the league.

It's funny how as a wolves fan, I don't see Joker flopping much when we play him. Could it be that he reads what the refs are doing for the other team, takes note, and responds in kind?

[MN7725]

Which point guard are you thinking of here, and what part of the roster are you sacrificing to fit him in?

Malcolm Brogdon on a minimum contract

I think the Thunder would play him off the floor, and we have also seen in the past that when he is tasked at being a primary playmaker that those teams have struggled badly. Brogdon is a secondary ball handler and always has been.

all true

and would still be an improvement

[scrabbarista]

Not much there on Turner.

[MoneyTalks41890]

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