Official 2024-2025 Magic Trade ideas thread continued

[pepe1991]

I really need the Fanspo trade machine to go ahead and waive these Magic team options

I'm sick of every trade hitting me with a "the Magic will be a second apron team after this trade so it's not allowed" because the nearly $25M team options that will be declined haven't officially been declined yet.

https://fanspo.com/nba/trade-machine

Best trade machine is on spotrac

Flawed because it doesn't populate with 25-26 salaries...that's the one I mostly use, but I also have Spotrac multi-year salary profiles open (for involved teams) at the same time.

Wait 20 more days and this season will be over

[Skybox]

You still need players who run a efficient offense and NO Paolo & Franz can't. Simons, Sexton cant too. I take them because they are still a upgrade over the mess we have now, but they wont change our horrible offensive structure and i would bet that fans wanna trade them again in 2 years.
I still hope for Garland or Reaves, Simons & Sexton is only ''in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king'' stuff.

We cant run anything close to efficient offense with Paolo and franz bc NOBODY outside those two (since suggs injured) can hit open shots on consistent basis. Suggs back in the mix and anyone any PG/combo guard level player that is a proven shooter, not awful defense and average point guard half court awareness would make us a 50+ team even with Mosley and a lackluster bench.

We are not getting Garland or Reaves. Those two arent being traded and even if they would we could not afford their contracts (reaves next). Simons is like a poor mans garland anyways. Him or Coby White are more attainable without having to give up Suggs. Idc which one we just need more proven offensive help in this team. Enough lanky defensive specialist. Surround paolo and franz with shooters like DET did to Cade and you will see this team be top 3 in east next year.

During 2023-24:
Ingles shot 43,5% for 3
Suggs shot 40% for 3
Black shot 39% for 3
Isaac shot 37,5% for 3
Carter shot 37,4% for 3
Harris shot 37% for 3
Houstan shot 37% for 3

Mo Wagner hat 68% TS
Goga had 63% TS

And offense still sucked (22# offense ,worst offense that made playoffs) with fully healthy roster and several players in career years.

People simply don't want to accept reality. Franz and Paolo running and dominating in usage- offense isn't good offense.
it's not about others making shots, it's irrelevant how good others shoot as long as 65% of your offense goes to below average efficiency scorers who also are mediocre or flat out bad outside shooters as well.

This year they were top 10 in usage rate and ran worst shooting team of a decade with just dreadful offensive rating.
You can plant 3 Klay Thompsons around them, if 3 Klays combine for 15 shots and two of them for 60 shots guess what ? offense will still be pretty damn bad because:

leagues average EFG% = 54,3
Paolo = 50% eFG
Franz 50,7% eFG

True shooting league average = 57,6%
Paolo = 55,1%
Franz = 55,8%

League's average 3 point shooting = 36%
Paolo = 32%
Franz = 29,5%


We can spin this narrative as much as we want but great offensive players make offense better AND individual players better.
Year prior their usage was under some control and others had opportunity to shine. Comes as no surprise that Isaac and Moe had career years with Ingles. Because he was good at running offense.

Year later, this year, their offensive rating is just flat out stupid for players that aren't MVP candidates. Especially because they play with each other. You have to question how much their selfish basketball takes life out of rest of a roster and how selfishness plagued locker room.

When you look at some shot distribution it's hilarious that people blame role players given context.

Per 40 min in playoffs shot distribution:
Paolo (3rd most in nba) = 25,2 shots a game
Franz (4th most in nba) = 23,6 shots a game


SGA 23,3 - literally MVP
Giannis 21 shots - literally worst supporting cast
Jokić - 19 shots - literally best player in the world
Edwards 20 shots
Siakam -18,3 shots
Jamal Murray 17 shots

Only two guys, who aren't playing together, and shot more than Franz & Paolo per min are Ja Morant and Mitchell.

Once you combine Paolo's highest usage in playoffs among all nba players with fact that per 40 min he isn't even top 50 ( out of 170 who played) in assists, and Franz is hardly scrapping into top top 30 (30th) talking about "supporting cast failing them" is simply trying to find excuses instead of pointing out main guys to blame.

I don't only blame them for them, coaching stuff and front office enabled this nonsense by having roster without PG ( on Weltman) and roster without any offensive structure and order ( on Mosley) .



it's just flat out silly. Basketball is team sport. 5 men have to be involved into offense and defense.
Franz and Paolo simply aren't playmakers, they are players who look for themself first and often first- and only.
Offense where majority of others don't know when, where and will their shots ever come from is bound to fail. Passing hot potato to KCP with 0,4 sec left to avoid missed FGA ( Paolo's special) isn't playmaking.

Throwing hip into defender for 8 sec to shoot long 2 after having no ball movement for 12 sec isn't offensive set.

And non of this would be any different if Suggs and Moe played. It would maybe look bit better vs Celtics, but it would still be 6 games wrap at most.

We need playmaker. Somebody who can lower usage of Paolo and Franz and make them part of the offense. Right now they aren't that. They are ballstoppers on mediocre efficiency and our offense looks like Melo + Iverson = wins happen only if defense holds, but due usage they put "all star numbers". Where their impact on offense is way closer to Lavine & Derozan than anybody is ready to admit.
We needed Paolo to become more like Franz ( off ball cuts) instead Franz turned into Paolo vol 2.

but but we can "develop" them into 6'10 PGs

They are simply not going to get too much better at running an efficient offense from the forward spots. They will likely get more efficient in their scoring, shooting, and minimizing turnovers. They need to re-learn basketball, specifically moving without the ball and being rewarded for it. Paolo's NBA career thus far has been about bad basketball and overcoming unnecessary obstacles...being able to do it on many nights doesn't make it a good idea. Paolo & Franz will WELCOME a PG...to make their lives easier. I never thought these words would leave my keyboard "our offense was better with Fultz"

Now that does NOT mean Fultz was good or good enough for a serious team...but pointing to how Paolo & Franz ran the offense this season as something we can't change is ludicrous. It was a terrible system somewhat salvaged by two exceptional scorers who shouldn't be burdened with so much iso scoring if we have any hope of contending. It's pretty simple, we went into the playoffs against the champs with Cory Joseph starting - how clear is that message? I understand that Suggs was out, but they could have paired KCP with AB or Gary or Trev if they wanted to continue the two SG foolishness. IF CoJo was more of a scoring threat at all, it wouldn't have to be All-P&F all the time.

Among the semi-realistic ones, I think Reaves or Derrick White would be the best options, but toughest to get. Reaves' contract situation isn't a positive, it's a negative, because he's going to expect a big raise and we won't be able to send out as much matching salary to get him (and our players aren't likely enough to entice LAL without serious draft equity-which isn't LAL's priority)...I'd be very happy with Simons, McCollum, Sexton, Coby White as fallbacks but I'd call LAL first. I think BOS will try harder to unload Jrue or Porzingis first and, preferably, to a team like BRK that can offer immediate $$ savings-even expirings don't offer savings until next year (which is not the point with Tatum returning and the focus being contention again). They may be really really bold or just get lucky and move Jrue for some immediate savings.

[89Magicfan]

You still need players who run a efficient offense and NO Paolo & Franz can't. Simons, Sexton cant too. I take them because they are still a upgrade over the mess we have now, but they wont change our horrible offensive structure and i would bet that fans wanna trade them again in 2 years.
I still hope for Garland or Reaves, Simons & Sexton is only ''in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king'' stuff.

We cant run anything close to efficient offense with Paolo and franz bc NOBODY outside those two (since suggs injured) can hit open shots on consistent basis. Suggs back in the mix and anyone any PG/combo guard level player that is a proven shooter, not awful defense and average point guard half court awareness would make us a 50+ team even with Mosley and a lackluster bench.

We are not getting Garland or Reaves. Those two arent being traded and even if they would we could not afford their contracts (reaves next). Simons is like a poor mans garland anyways. Him or Coby White are more attainable without having to give up Suggs. Idc which one we just need more proven offensive help in this team. Enough lanky defensive specialist. Surround paolo and franz with shooters like DET did to Cade and you will see this team be top 3 in east next year.

During 2023-24:
Ingles shot 43,5% for 3
Suggs shot 40% for 3
Black shot 39% for 3
Isaac shot 37,5% for 3
Carter shot 37,4% for 3
Harris shot 37% for 3
Houstan shot 37% for 3

Mo Wagner hat 68% TS
Goga had 63% TS

And offense still sucked (22# offense ,worst offense that made playoffs) with fully healthy roster and several players in career years.

People simply don't want to accept reality. Franz and Paolo running and dominating in usage- offense isn't good offense.
it's not about others making shots, it's irrelevant how good others shoot as long as 65% of your offense goes to below average efficiency scorers who also are mediocre or flat out bad outside shooters as well.

This year they were top 10 in usage rate and ran worst shooting team of a decade with just dreadful offensive rating.
You can plant 3 Klay Thompsons around them, if 3 Klays combine for 15 shots and two of them for 60 shots guess what ? offense will still be pretty damn bad because:

leagues average EFG% = 54,3
Paolo = 50% eFG
Franz 50,7% eFG

True shooting league average = 57,6%
Paolo = 55,1%
Franz = 55,8%

League's average 3 point shooting = 36%
Paolo = 32%
Franz = 29,5%


We can spin this narrative as much as we want but great offensive players make offense better AND individual players better.
Year prior their usage was under some control and others had opportunity to shine. Comes as no surprise that Isaac and Moe had career years with Ingles. Because he was good at running offense.

Year later, this year, their offensive rating is just flat out stupid for players that aren't MVP candidates. Especially because they play with each other. You have to question how much their selfish basketball takes life out of rest of a roster and how selfishness plagued locker room.

When you look at some shot distribution it's hilarious that people blame role players given context.

Per 40 min in playoffs shot distribution:
Paolo (3rd most in nba) = 25,2 shots a game
Franz (4th most in nba) = 23,6 shots a game


SGA 23,3 - literally MVP
Giannis 21 shots - literally worst supporting cast
Jokić - 19 shots - literally best player in the world
Edwards 20 shots
Siakam -18,3 shots
Jamal Murray 17 shots

Only two guys, who aren't playing together, and shot more than Franz & Paolo per min are Ja Morant and Mitchell.

Once you combine Paolo's highest usage in playoffs among all nba players with fact that per 40 min he isn't even top 50 ( out of 170 who played) in assists, and Franz is hardly scrapping into top top 30 (30th) talking about "supporting cast failing them" is simply trying to find excuses instead of pointing out main guys to blame.

I don't only blame them for them, coaching stuff and front office enabled this nonsense by having roster without PG ( on Weltman) and roster without any offensive structure and order ( on Mosley) .



it's just flat out silly. Basketball is team sport. 5 men have to be involved into offense and defense.
Franz and Paolo simply aren't playmakers, they are players who look for themself first and often first- and only.
Offense where majority of others don't know when, where and will their shots ever come from is bound to fail. Passing hot potato to KCP with 0,4 sec left to avoid missed FGA ( Paolo's special) isn't playmaking.

Throwing hip into defender for 8 sec to shoot long 2 after having no ball movement for 12 sec isn't offensive set.

And non of this would be any different if Suggs and Moe played. It would maybe look bit better vs Celtics, but it would still be 6 games wrap at most.

We need playmaker. Somebody who can lower usage of Paolo and Franz and make them part of the offense. Right now they aren't that. They are ballstoppers on mediocre efficiency and our coffense looks like Melo + Iverson = wins happen only if defense holds, but due usage they put "all star numbers". Where their impact on offense way closer to Lavine & Derozan than anybody is ready to admit.
We needed Paolo to become more like Franz ( off ball cuts) instead Franz turned into Paolo vol 2.

Great post. I only hope Weltman is seeing it the way we are. It’s not just shooting percentages or assists. It’s how the offense is being set up. The tone a PG sets. A PG knows how to get someone involved, who to get involved and when. We don’t have that. We need that. Desperately.

[eyriq]

You still need players who run a efficient offense and NO Paolo & Franz can't. Simons, Sexton cant too. I take them because they are still a upgrade over the mess we have now, but they wont change our horrible offensive structure and i would bet that fans wanna trade them again in 2 years.
I still hope for Garland or Reaves, Simons & Sexton is only ''in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king'' stuff.

We cant run anything close to efficient offense with Paolo and franz bc NOBODY outside those two (since suggs injured) can hit open shots on consistent basis. Suggs back in the mix and anyone any PG/combo guard level player that is a proven shooter, not awful defense and average point guard half court awareness would make us a 50+ team even with Mosley and a lackluster bench.

We are not getting Garland or Reaves. Those two arent being traded and even if they would we could not afford their contracts (reaves next). Simons is like a poor mans garland anyways. Him or Coby White are more attainable without having to give up Suggs. Idc which one we just need more proven offensive help in this team. Enough lanky defensive specialist. Surround paolo and franz with shooters like DET did to Cade and you will see this team be top 3 in east next year.

During 2023-24:
Ingles shot 43,5% for 3
Suggs shot 40% for 3
Black shot 39% for 3
Isaac shot 37,5% for 3
Carter shot 37,4% for 3
Harris shot 37% for 3
Houstan shot 37% for 3

Mo Wagner hat 68% TS
Goga had 63% TS

And offense still sucked (22# offense ,worst offense that made playoffs) with fully healthy roster and several players in career years.

People simply don't want to accept reality. Franz and Paolo running and dominating in usage- offense isn't good offense.
it's not about others making shots, it's irrelevant how good others shoot as long as 65% of your offense goes to below average efficiency scorers who also are mediocre or flat out bad outside shooters as well.

This year they were top 10 in usage rate and ran worst shooting team of a decade with just dreadful offensive rating.
You can plant 3 Klay Thompsons around them, if 3 Klays combine for 15 shots and two of them for 60 shots guess what ? offense will still be pretty damn bad because:

leagues average EFG% = 54,3
Paolo = 50% eFG
Franz 50,7% eFG

True shooting league average = 57,6%
Paolo = 55,1%
Franz = 55,8%

League's average 3 point shooting = 36%
Paolo = 32%
Franz = 29,5%


We can spin this narrative as much as we want but great offensive players make offense better AND individual players better.
Year prior their usage was under some control and others had opportunity to shine. Comes as no surprise that Isaac and Moe had career years with Ingles. Because he was good at running offense.

Year later, this year, their offensive rating is just flat out stupid for players that aren't MVP candidates. Especially because they play with each other. You have to question how much their selfish basketball takes life out of rest of a roster and how selfishness plagued locker room.

When you look at some shot distribution it's hilarious that people blame role players given context.

Per 40 min in playoffs shot distribution:
Paolo (3rd most in nba) = 25,2 shots a game
Franz (4th most in nba) = 23,6 shots a game


SGA 23,3 - literally MVP
Giannis 21 shots - literally worst supporting cast
Jokić - 19 shots - literally best player in the world
Edwards 20 shots
Siakam -18,3 shots
Jamal Murray 17 shots

Only two guys, who aren't playing together, and shot more than Franz & Paolo per min are Ja Morant and Mitchell.

Once you combine Paolo's highest usage in playoffs among all nba players with fact that per 40 min he isn't even top 50 ( out of 170 who played) in assists, and Franz is hardly scrapping into top top 30 (30th) talking about "supporting cast failing them" is simply trying to find excuses instead of pointing out main guys to blame.

I don't only blame them for them, coaching stuff and front office enabled this nonsense by having roster without PG ( on Weltman) and roster without any offensive structure and order ( on Mosley) .



it's just flat out silly. Basketball is team sport. 5 men have to be involved into offense and defense.
Franz and Paolo simply aren't playmakers, they are players who look for themself first and often first- and only.
Offense where majority of others don't know when, where and will their shots ever come from is bound to fail. Passing hot potato to KCP with 0,4 sec left to avoid missed FGA ( Paolo's special) isn't playmaking.

Throwing hip into defender for 8 sec to shoot long 2 after having no ball movement for 12 sec isn't offensive set.

And non of this would be any different if Suggs and Moe played. It would maybe look bit better vs Celtics, but it would still be 6 games wrap at most.

We need playmaker. Somebody who can lower usage of Paolo and Franz and make them part of the offense. Right now they aren't that. They are ballstoppers on mediocre efficiency and our offense looks like Melo + Iverson = wins happen only if defense holds, but due usage they put "all star numbers". Where their impact on offense is way closer to Lavine & Derozan than anybody is ready to admit.
We needed Paolo to become more like Franz ( off ball cuts) instead Franz turned into Paolo vol 2.

The 2023-24 offense died on turnovers. Paolo and Franz both tightened that up in 2024-25. This year’s issue was shooting, wide-open misses, spacing collapses, no downhill threat off the catch. That’s not a usage problem, that’s a personnel problem. Paolo and Franz are developing into true star hubs, it’s time to build around them, not act like they’re the problem.

[basketballRob]

Cole will probably go to a tanking team and average 20 ppg on 40% from 3.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

[BadMofoPimp]

Not a fan of Poole. Stats on an empty team type of guy. He would be crushed by fans here with his boneheaded play.

I’ve said this before, but you’d have to absolutely trust that the last two years in Washington’s tanking mess hasn’t completely destroyed Poole’s ability to play winning basketball.

Because he was absolutely an effective player on the Warriors when they won the NBA title. That’s how he earned the contract he got in the first place, ya know?

The Bucks acquired Kuzma and he hadn’t played a meaningful game in several years and they dropped him into the middle of a playoff race and first round series and he flopped miserably.

Would the same happen for Poole? Maybe.

It’s definitely a risk given his salary. The primary thing intriguing about him is that he’s a distressed asset and likely would cost a minimal amount in terms of draft capital, which could free up the Magic to use their picks in other trades.

He can make shots but my concern is adding a $30+ mil low BBIQ player to this core.

[Skybox]

Cole will probably go to a tanking team and average 20 ppg on 40% from 3.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

A lot of guys in the NBA can do that...we have to be careful not to trade for one of those too

I think Cam Johnson's scoring was inflated.
Possibly Dennis Schroeder - but he's still a very good PG (just not a 20ppg guy at this stage)
Not sure Sexton is as potent as he's measured on UTA...but still good enough for ORL's role
Poole is scary talented and ...scary
I've still got reservations about Coby White, but I'd be happy to get him.

...and then you watch the playoffs and see undeniable STARS like Brunson and KAT being "picked on" at the higher levels of competition ...it's all about team construction and balance.

[Skybox]

We cant run anything close to efficient offense with Paolo and franz bc NOBODY outside those two (since suggs injured) can hit open shots on consistent basis. Suggs back in the mix and anyone any PG/combo guard level player that is a proven shooter, not awful defense and average point guard half court awareness would make us a 50+ team even with Mosley and a lackluster bench.

We are not getting Garland or Reaves. Those two arent being traded and even if they would we could not afford their contracts (reaves next). Simons is like a poor mans garland anyways. Him or Coby White are more attainable without having to give up Suggs. Idc which one we just need more proven offensive help in this team. Enough lanky defensive specialist. Surround paolo and franz with shooters like DET did to Cade and you will see this team be top 3 in east next year.

During 2023-24:
Ingles shot 43,5% for 3
Suggs shot 40% for 3
Black shot 39% for 3
Isaac shot 37,5% for 3
Carter shot 37,4% for 3
Harris shot 37% for 3
Houstan shot 37% for 3

Mo Wagner hat 68% TS
Goga had 63% TS

And offense still sucked (22# offense ,worst offense that made playoffs) with fully healthy roster and several players in career years.

People simply don't want to accept reality. Franz and Paolo running and dominating in usage- offense isn't good offense.
it's not about others making shots, it's irrelevant how good others shoot as long as 65% of your offense goes to below average efficiency scorers who also are mediocre or flat out bad outside shooters as well.

This year they were top 10 in usage rate and ran worst shooting team of a decade with just dreadful offensive rating.
You can plant 3 Klay Thompsons around them, if 3 Klays combine for 15 shots and two of them for 60 shots guess what ? offense will still be pretty damn bad because:

leagues average EFG% = 54,3
Paolo = 50% eFG
Franz 50,7% eFG

True shooting league average = 57,6%
Paolo = 55,1%
Franz = 55,8%

League's average 3 point shooting = 36%
Paolo = 32%
Franz = 29,5%


We can spin this narrative as much as we want but great offensive players make offense better AND individual players better.
Year prior their usage was under some control and others had opportunity to shine. Comes as no surprise that Isaac and Moe had career years with Ingles. Because he was good at running offense.

Year later, this year, their offensive rating is just flat out stupid for players that aren't MVP candidates. Especially because they play with each other. You have to question how much their selfish basketball takes life out of rest of a roster and how selfishness plagued locker room.

When you look at some shot distribution it's hilarious that people blame role players given context.

Per 40 min in playoffs shot distribution:
Paolo (3rd most in nba) = 25,2 shots a game
Franz (4th most in nba) = 23,6 shots a game


SGA 23,3 - literally MVP
Giannis 21 shots - literally worst supporting cast
Jokić - 19 shots - literally best player in the world
Edwards 20 shots
Siakam -18,3 shots
Jamal Murray 17 shots

Only two guys, who aren't playing together, and shot more than Franz & Paolo per min are Ja Morant and Mitchell.

Once you combine Paolo's highest usage in playoffs among all nba players with fact that per 40 min he isn't even top 50 ( out of 170 who played) in assists, and Franz is hardly scrapping into top top 30 (30th) talking about "supporting cast failing them" is simply trying to find excuses instead of pointing out main guys to blame.

I don't only blame them for them, coaching stuff and front office enabled this nonsense by having roster without PG ( on Weltman) and roster without any offensive structure and order ( on Mosley) .



it's just flat out silly. Basketball is team sport. 5 men have to be involved into offense and defense.
Franz and Paolo simply aren't playmakers, they are players who look for themself first and often first- and only.
Offense where majority of others don't know when, where and will their shots ever come from is bound to fail. Passing hot potato to KCP with 0,4 sec left to avoid missed FGA ( Paolo's special) isn't playmaking.

Throwing hip into defender for 8 sec to shoot long 2 after having no ball movement for 12 sec isn't offensive set.

And non of this would be any different if Suggs and Moe played. It would maybe look bit better vs Celtics, but it would still be 6 games wrap at most.

We need playmaker. Somebody who can lower usage of Paolo and Franz and make them part of the offense. Right now they aren't that. They are ballstoppers on mediocre efficiency and our coffense looks like Melo + Iverson = wins happen only if defense holds, but due usage they put "all star numbers". Where their impact on offense way closer to Lavine & Derozan than anybody is ready to admit.
We needed Paolo to become more like Franz ( off ball cuts) instead Franz turned into Paolo vol 2.

Great post. I only hope Weltman is seeing it the way we are. It’s not just shooting percentages or assists. It’s how the offense is being set up. The tone a PG sets. A PG knows how to get someone involved, who to get involved and when. We don’t have that. We need that. Desperately.

YEP...it's not just "shooters"

We kill shooters here.

[VFX]

We cant run anything close to efficient offense with Paolo and franz bc NOBODY outside those two (since suggs injured) can hit open shots on consistent basis. Suggs back in the mix and anyone any PG/combo guard level player that is a proven shooter, not awful defense and average point guard half court awareness would make us a 50+ team even with Mosley and a lackluster bench.

We are not getting Garland or Reaves. Those two arent being traded and even if they would we could not afford their contracts (reaves next). Simons is like a poor mans garland anyways. Him or Coby White are more attainable without having to give up Suggs. Idc which one we just need more proven offensive help in this team. Enough lanky defensive specialist. Surround paolo and franz with shooters like DET did to Cade and you will see this team be top 3 in east next year.

During 2023-24:
Ingles shot 43,5% for 3
Suggs shot 40% for 3
Black shot 39% for 3
Isaac shot 37,5% for 3
Carter shot 37,4% for 3
Harris shot 37% for 3
Houstan shot 37% for 3

Mo Wagner hat 68% TS
Goga had 63% TS

And offense still sucked (22# offense ,worst offense that made playoffs) with fully healthy roster and several players in career years.

People simply don't want to accept reality. Franz and Paolo running and dominating in usage- offense isn't good offense.
it's not about others making shots, it's irrelevant how good others shoot as long as 65% of your offense goes to below average efficiency scorers who also are mediocre or flat out bad outside shooters as well.

This year they were top 10 in usage rate and ran worst shooting team of a decade with just dreadful offensive rating.
You can plant 3 Klay Thompsons around them, if 3 Klays combine for 15 shots and two of them for 60 shots guess what ? offense will still be pretty damn bad because:

leagues average EFG% = 54,3
Paolo = 50% eFG
Franz 50,7% eFG

True shooting league average = 57,6%
Paolo = 55,1%
Franz = 55,8%

League's average 3 point shooting = 36%
Paolo = 32%
Franz = 29,5%


We can spin this narrative as much as we want but great offensive players make offense better AND individual players better.
Year prior their usage was under some control and others had opportunity to shine. Comes as no surprise that Isaac and Moe had career years with Ingles. Because he was good at running offense.

Year later, this year, their offensive rating is just flat out stupid for players that aren't MVP candidates. Especially because they play with each other. You have to question how much their selfish basketball takes life out of rest of a roster and how selfishness plagued locker room.

When you look at some shot distribution it's hilarious that people blame role players given context.

Per 40 min in playoffs shot distribution:
Paolo (3rd most in nba) = 25,2 shots a game
Franz (4th most in nba) = 23,6 shots a game


SGA 23,3 - literally MVP
Giannis 21 shots - literally worst supporting cast
Jokić - 19 shots - literally best player in the world
Edwards 20 shots
Siakam -18,3 shots
Jamal Murray 17 shots

Only two guys, who aren't playing together, and shot more than Franz & Paolo per min are Ja Morant and Mitchell.

Once you combine Paolo's highest usage in playoffs among all nba players with fact that per 40 min he isn't even top 50 ( out of 170 who played) in assists, and Franz is hardly scrapping into top top 30 (30th) talking about "supporting cast failing them" is simply trying to find excuses instead of pointing out main guys to blame.

I don't only blame them for them, coaching stuff and front office enabled this nonsense by having roster without PG ( on Weltman) and roster without any offensive structure and order ( on Mosley) .



it's just flat out silly. Basketball is team sport. 5 men have to be involved into offense and defense.
Franz and Paolo simply aren't playmakers, they are players who look for themself first and often first- and only.
Offense where majority of others don't know when, where and will their shots ever come from is bound to fail. Passing hot potato to KCP with 0,4 sec left to avoid missed FGA ( Paolo's special) isn't playmaking.

Throwing hip into defender for 8 sec to shoot long 2 after having no ball movement for 12 sec isn't offensive set.

And non of this would be any different if Suggs and Moe played. It would maybe look bit better vs Celtics, but it would still be 6 games wrap at most.

We need playmaker. Somebody who can lower usage of Paolo and Franz and make them part of the offense. Right now they aren't that. They are ballstoppers on mediocre efficiency and our offense looks like Melo + Iverson = wins happen only if defense holds, but due usage they put "all star numbers". Where their impact on offense is way closer to Lavine & Derozan than anybody is ready to admit.
We needed Paolo to become more like Franz ( off ball cuts) instead Franz turned into Paolo vol 2.

The 2023-24 offense died on turnovers. Paolo and Franz both tightened that up in 2024-25. This year’s issue was shooting, wide-open misses, spacing collapses, no downhill threat off the catch. That’s not a usage problem, that’s a personnel problem. Paolo and Franz are developing into true star hubs, it’s time to build around them, not act like they’re the problem.

It’s funny because we obviously disagree on these things but it’s like a very specific wording of things that makes me want to even respond.

There is a cause and effect to the poor shooting, spacing, wide open misses, etc. it’s called not being in rhythm. Paolo and Franz eating up 90% of usage undoubtedly contributes to that. It’s not even an argument.

The ball does move enough fluidly and other guys are not getting consistent enough looks from outside to be knocking down these shots.

Why? Because the offense right now is jazz. It’s just Paolo and Franz making up whatever they can on the fly in isolation. As Pepe noted… guys were knocking down shots at a better rate last season (due mostly in part to Ingles and Suggs shooting %) and the offense was still bottom 5-10 most of the season.

You are having an issue with wording. Are Paolo and Franz the “problem”? No, not necessarily. The lack of a system on offense that lends them to being the “hub” is the problem. If they cannot learn to become elite scorers off of catching the ball from 1-2 total passes, then they are not capable of working within a real system designed to be effective.

They do not need to be the point of attack every possession. That is crazy AAU talk. These guys are max level contract players in the nba and people talk about them like they are incapable of understanding efficient offense.

Adding random players to stand on the perimeter as they watch those two guys attempt to finesse or bully their way to the basket for contested impossible shots is not adding anything to the construct of the offense.

[eyriq]

During 2023-24:
Ingles shot 43,5% for 3
Suggs shot 40% for 3
Black shot 39% for 3
Isaac shot 37,5% for 3
Carter shot 37,4% for 3
Harris shot 37% for 3
Houstan shot 37% for 3

Mo Wagner hat 68% TS
Goga had 63% TS

And offense still sucked (22# offense ,worst offense that made playoffs) with fully healthy roster and several players in career years.

People simply don't want to accept reality. Franz and Paolo running and dominating in usage- offense isn't good offense.
it's not about others making shots, it's irrelevant how good others shoot as long as 65% of your offense goes to below average efficiency scorers who also are mediocre or flat out bad outside shooters as well.

This year they were top 10 in usage rate and ran worst shooting team of a decade with just dreadful offensive rating.
You can plant 3 Klay Thompsons around them, if 3 Klays combine for 15 shots and two of them for 60 shots guess what ? offense will still be pretty damn bad because:

leagues average EFG% = 54,3
Paolo = 50% eFG
Franz 50,7% eFG

True shooting league average = 57,6%
Paolo = 55,1%
Franz = 55,8%

League's average 3 point shooting = 36%
Paolo = 32%
Franz = 29,5%


We can spin this narrative as much as we want but great offensive players make offense better AND individual players better.
Year prior their usage was under some control and others had opportunity to shine. Comes as no surprise that Isaac and Moe had career years with Ingles. Because he was good at running offense.

Year later, this year, their offensive rating is just flat out stupid for players that aren't MVP candidates. Especially because they play with each other. You have to question how much their selfish basketball takes life out of rest of a roster and how selfishness plagued locker room.

When you look at some shot distribution it's hilarious that people blame role players given context.

Per 40 min in playoffs shot distribution:
Paolo (3rd most in nba) = 25,2 shots a game
Franz (4th most in nba) = 23,6 shots a game


SGA 23,3 - literally MVP
Giannis 21 shots - literally worst supporting cast
Jokić - 19 shots - literally best player in the world
Edwards 20 shots
Siakam -18,3 shots
Jamal Murray 17 shots

Only two guys, who aren't playing together, and shot more than Franz & Paolo per min are Ja Morant and Mitchell.

Once you combine Paolo's highest usage in playoffs among all nba players with fact that per 40 min he isn't even top 50 ( out of 170 who played) in assists, and Franz is hardly scrapping into top top 30 (30th) talking about "supporting cast failing them" is simply trying to find excuses instead of pointing out main guys to blame.

I don't only blame them for them, coaching stuff and front office enabled this nonsense by having roster without PG ( on Weltman) and roster without any offensive structure and order ( on Mosley) .



it's just flat out silly. Basketball is team sport. 5 men have to be involved into offense and defense.
Franz and Paolo simply aren't playmakers, they are players who look for themself first and often first- and only.
Offense where majority of others don't know when, where and will their shots ever come from is bound to fail. Passing hot potato to KCP with 0,4 sec left to avoid missed FGA ( Paolo's special) isn't playmaking.

Throwing hip into defender for 8 sec to shoot long 2 after having no ball movement for 12 sec isn't offensive set.

And non of this would be any different if Suggs and Moe played. It would maybe look bit better vs Celtics, but it would still be 6 games wrap at most.

We need playmaker. Somebody who can lower usage of Paolo and Franz and make them part of the offense. Right now they aren't that. They are ballstoppers on mediocre efficiency and our offense looks like Melo + Iverson = wins happen only if defense holds, but due usage they put "all star numbers". Where their impact on offense is way closer to Lavine & Derozan than anybody is ready to admit.
We needed Paolo to become more like Franz ( off ball cuts) instead Franz turned into Paolo vol 2.

The 2023-24 offense died on turnovers. Paolo and Franz both tightened that up in 2024-25. This year’s issue was shooting, wide-open misses, spacing collapses, no downhill threat off the catch. That’s not a usage problem, that’s a personnel problem. Paolo and Franz are developing into true star hubs, it’s time to build around them, not act like they’re the problem.

It’s funny because we obviously disagree on these things but it’s like a very specific wording of things that makes me want to even respond.

There is a cause and effect to the poor shooting, spacing, wide open misses, etc. it’s called not being in rhythm. Paolo and Franz eating up 90% of usage undoubtedly contributes to that. It’s not even an argument.

The ball does move enough fluidly and other guys are not getting consistent enough looks from outside to be knocking down these shots.

Why? Because the offense right now is jazz. It’s just Paolo and Franz making up whatever they can on the fly in isolation. As Pepe noted… guys were knocking down shots at a better rate last season (due mostly in part to Ingles and Suggs shooting %) and the offense was still bottom 5-10 most of the season.

You are having an issue with wording. Are Paolo and Franz the “problem”? No, not necessarily. The lack of a system on offense that lends them to being the “hub” is the problem. If they cannot learn to become elite scorers off of catching the ball from 1-2 total passes, then they are not capable of working within a real system designed to be effective.

They do not need to be the point of attack every possession. That is crazy AAU talk. These guys are max level contract players in the nba and people talk about them like they are incapable of understanding efficient offense.

Adding random players to stand on the perimeter as they watch those two guys attempt to finesse or bully their way to the basket for contested impossible shots is not adding anything to the construct of the offense.

You're not wrong that rhythm matters, and I agree the offense has lacked structure, especially with the injuries. But it’s a mistake to say the usage itself is the issue. The 2023-24 offense died on turnovers; Paolo and Franz cleaned that up. This year’s collapse was spacing and shooting, pure personnel.

Franz and Paolo are developing into star hubs, and no, they don’t need to initiate everything, but you don’t neuter them either. A real system distributes playmaking touches, not eliminates them. The next step is building a roster and scheme that amplifies their strengths, not pretending they’re the problem because the current system has no perimeter gravity.

[VFX]

The 2023-24 offense died on turnovers. Paolo and Franz both tightened that up in 2024-25. This year’s issue was shooting, wide-open misses, spacing collapses, no downhill threat off the catch. That’s not a usage problem, that’s a personnel problem. Paolo and Franz are developing into true star hubs, it’s time to build around them, not act like they’re the problem.

It’s funny because we obviously disagree on these things but it’s like a very specific wording of things that makes me want to even respond.

There is a cause and effect to the poor shooting, spacing, wide open misses, etc. it’s called not being in rhythm. Paolo and Franz eating up 90% of usage undoubtedly contributes to that. It’s not even an argument.

The ball does move enough fluidly and other guys are not getting consistent enough looks from outside to be knocking down these shots.

Why? Because the offense right now is jazz. It’s just Paolo and Franz making up whatever they can on the fly in isolation. As Pepe noted… guys were knocking down shots at a better rate last season (due mostly in part to Ingles and Suggs shooting %) and the offense was still bottom 5-10 most of the season.

You are having an issue with wording. Are Paolo and Franz the “problem”? No, not necessarily. The lack of a system on offense that lends them to being the “hub” is the problem. If they cannot learn to become elite scorers off of catching the ball from 1-2 total passes, then they are not capable of working within a real system designed to be effective.

They do not need to be the point of attack every possession. That is crazy AAU talk. These guys are max level contract players in the nba and people talk about them like they are incapable of understanding efficient offense.

Adding random players to stand on the perimeter as they watch those two guys attempt to finesse or bully their way to the basket for contested impossible shots is not adding anything to the construct of the offense.

You're not wrong that rhythm matters, and I agree the offense has lacked structure, especially with the injuries. But it’s a mistake to say the usage itself is the issue. The 2023-24 offense died on turnovers; Paolo and Franz cleaned that up. This year’s collapse was spacing and shooting, pure personnel.

Franz and Paolo are developing into star hubs, and no, they don’t need to initiate everything, but you don’t neuter them either. A real system distributes playmaking touches, not eliminates them. The next step is building a roster and scheme that amplifies their strengths, not pretending they’re the problem because the current system has no perimeter gravity.

This is semantics.

Your idea of “neuter” is that they aren’t initiating at the point of attack every possession and that a guard on the perimeter isn’t initiating most of the time.

Paolo and Franz are mismatches 1:1, not 3-4:1 , which is exactly what they attempt to do every night. The current system has no gravity BECAUSE they aren’t consistent from outside.

You cannot have 4/5 positions on the floor incapable of creating a shot from outside in space. It doesn’t matter what offense you put next to those players.

Their “strengths” are not what you think they are. They are scorers. That’s it. They aren’t Magic Johnson. They aren’t prime Lebron. They are 6’10 scoring forwards that have slightly above average handle relative to their size. You are overstating that handle as something that is wholly unique to an entire system on offense. It simply isn’t.

[OrlandoDream]

You still need players who run a efficient offense and NO Paolo & Franz can't. Simons, Sexton cant too. I take them because they are still a upgrade over the mess we have now, but they wont change our horrible offensive structure and i would bet that fans wanna trade them again in 2 years.
I still hope for Garland or Reaves, Simons & Sexton is only ''in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king'' stuff.

We cant run anything close to efficient offense with Paolo and franz bc NOBODY outside those two (since suggs injured) can hit open shots on consistent basis. Suggs back in the mix and anyone any PG/combo guard level player that is a proven shooter, not awful defense and average point guard half court awareness would make us a 50+ team even with Mosley and a lackluster bench.

We are not getting Garland or Reaves. Those two arent being traded and even if they would we could not afford their contracts (reaves next). Simons is like a poor mans garland anyways. Him or Coby White are more attainable without having to give up Suggs. Idc which one we just need more proven offensive help in this team. Enough lanky defensive specialist. Surround paolo and franz with shooters like DET did to Cade and you will see this team be top 3 in east next year.

During 2023-24:
Ingles shot 43,5% for 3
Suggs shot 40% for 3
Black shot 39% for 3
Isaac shot 37,5% for 3
Carter shot 37,4% for 3
Harris shot 37% for 3
Houstan shot 37% for 3

Mo Wagner hat 68% TS
Goga had 63% TS

And offense still sucked (22# offense ,worst offense that made playoffs) with fully healthy roster and several players in career years.

People simply don't want to accept reality. Franz and Paolo running and dominating in usage- offense isn't good offense.
it's not about others making shots, it's irrelevant how good others shoot as long as 65% of your offense goes to below average efficiency scorers who also are mediocre or flat out bad outside shooters as well.

This year they were top 10 in usage rate and ran worst shooting team of a decade with just dreadful offensive rating.
You can plant 3 Klay Thompsons around them, if 3 Klays combine for 15 shots and two of them for 60 shots guess what ? offense will still be pretty damn bad because:

leagues average EFG% = 54,3
Paolo = 50% eFG
Franz 50,7% eFG

True shooting league average = 57,6%
Paolo = 55,1%
Franz = 55,8%

League's average 3 point shooting = 36%
Paolo = 32%
Franz = 29,5%


We can spin this narrative as much as we want but great offensive players make offense better AND individual players better.
Year prior their usage was under some control and others had opportunity to shine. Comes as no surprise that Isaac and Moe had career years with Ingles. Because he was good at running offense.

Year later, this year, their offensive rating is just flat out stupid for players that aren't MVP candidates. Especially because they play with each other. You have to question how much their selfish basketball takes life out of rest of a roster and how selfishness plagued locker room.

When you look at some shot distribution it's hilarious that people blame role players given context.

Per 40 min in playoffs shot distribution:
Paolo (3rd most in nba) = 25,2 shots a game
Franz (4th most in nba) = 23,6 shots a game


SGA 23,3 - literally MVP
Giannis 21 shots - literally worst supporting cast
Jokić - 19 shots - literally best player in the world
Edwards 20 shots
Siakam -18,3 shots
Jamal Murray 17 shots

Only two guys, who aren't playing together, and shot more than Franz & Paolo per min are Ja Morant and Mitchell.

Once you combine Paolo's highest usage in playoffs among all nba players with fact that per 40 min he isn't even top 50 ( out of 170 who played) in assists, and Franz is hardly scrapping into top top 30 (30th) talking about "supporting cast failing them" is simply trying to find excuses instead of pointing out main guys to blame.

I don't only blame them for them, coaching stuff and front office enabled this nonsense by having roster without PG ( on Weltman) and roster without any offensive structure and order ( on Mosley) .



it's just flat out silly. Basketball is team sport. 5 men have to be involved into offense and defense.
Franz and Paolo simply aren't playmakers, they are players who look for themself first and often first- and only.
Offense where majority of others don't know when, where and will their shots ever come from is bound to fail. Passing hot potato to KCP with 0,4 sec left to avoid missed FGA ( Paolo's special) isn't playmaking.

Throwing hip into defender for 8 sec to shoot long 2 after having no ball movement for 12 sec isn't offensive set.

And non of this would be any different if Suggs and Moe played. It would maybe look bit better vs Celtics, but it would still be 6 games wrap at most.

We need playmaker. Somebody who can lower usage of Paolo and Franz and make them part of the offense. Right now they aren't that. They are ballstoppers on mediocre efficiency and our offense looks like Melo + Iverson = wins happen only if defense holds, but due usage they put "all star numbers". Where their impact on offense is way closer to Lavine & Derozan than anybody is ready to admit.
We needed Paolo to become more like Franz ( off ball cuts) instead Franz turned into Paolo vol 2.

Look I appreciate the detailed statistical breakdown but nothing beats good old eye test. For ex saying we should not blame role players bc of Paolo and franz shot distribution in the playoffs misses the point that every role player was dogsh*t. If Im Paolo and Franz of course I'm gonna take the shot if I can. I don't trust any of these bums. How many times did we pass to KCP AB or COle to just brick an open 3s. Its embarrassing.

I disagree we would not be different without Suggs. Maybe not ECF worthy but we would have at least been a higher seed and make it to the second round. Suggs is the only other guard that can give us some offense but only other decent halfcourt playmaker. Look I agree we need a PG and more bal handelers but The sh*itting on Franz/Paolo being "selfish" is misguided. They have no choice to play this way. Ive watched almost every game this season and its pathetic the support they got from KCP, Cole, AB, Wendell for most of the season. This roster is flawed and changes are coming.

Also something that isn't talked about enough. Mosley and his inexperienced staff not being able to come up with NBA level offensive scheme is a big red flag we cant ignore for much longer. WE need our Carlisle.

[eyriq]

KCP + WCJ + Jett + #25 for
Coby + Vucevic

Read on Twitter

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[MartinsIzAfraud]

KCP + WCJ + Jett + #25 for
Coby + Vucevic

Read on Twitter

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they'll laugh at that offer and rightfully so. They give up the best piece take on long term money and get a late 1st..

[eyriq]

Read on Twitter

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[89Magicfan]

Read on Twitter

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Let the madness…Begin!

[BadMofoPimp]

Read on Twitter

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AB, Slim, Harris team option and this years 1st for Garland!!!

[basketballRob]

We don't need any more choir boys. I wouldn't give the Cavs a hard time and 2 bottles of warm pee for Garland or Allen.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[pepe1991]

Read on Twitter

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Let the madness…Begin!

They can do Giannis and PC for Garland and Allen
salaries are matching

[Skybox]

This is based on my (correct? ) understanding of the potentially tremendous value of next year's swap rights. It still seems too good to be true.

*lots of people want to throw expirings at BOS but that doesn't help them, financially, in the short term. Next year, they're not likely to contend, but the following year - with Tatum back, they'll be back in the mix. So having a bunch of salary drop off next summer is interesting, but they'll still likely be way above the cap, so it's not like they'll be signing a big free agent. Isaac is a really interesting situation, if he's traded before July 1 - his "trade price" is $25m, but his actual cap hit for next year is only $15m (If I've got it right)...that's pretty enticing for BOS. I think only BRK or DET can just absorb significantly more than they send out, so with Isaac actually being an impactful player AND a straight dump of $10m being additional incentive, he could be on BOS' radar. I'd be happy but not overly excited about getting Jrue and the 26 frp wouldn't be in play, imo...but Derrick White is another story. BOS gets an impactful player in Isaac, slides Pritchard into the starting spot next to Jrue and, if the chips fall the right way, they pull off a Len Bias high draft pick next summer, despite being already loaded with great players.

*but I guess that also means EVERY player in the trade is at their present salary - not just Isaac (?)


ORL sends: Jonathan Isaac (25m - drops to $15m), ORL 26 frp with high lottery swap potential
BOS sends: Derrick White (20m-jumps to $28.1m), Sam Hauser (2.1m - jumps to $10m)

Trade machines don't like it...not sure where the problem is.

Obviously, this does create more of a crunch for ORL - which we would have to address elsewhere