Ant’s Athleticism

[tsherkin]

Ultimately, he's still a 6'4" guy driving the ball. When guard-sized players collapse the defense, it's best to pass rather than constantly attempt shots against centers. It's not like Dwyane Wade was always posting more dominant numbers at the rim. Continuing to develop his playmaking off drives is where he'll really become a driver of elite offense.

So this comes back to what he was saying after his disappointing performance, I guess.

"I don't look at it like I struggled, or [Randle] struggled," Edwards said. "They just, they had a good game plan, making us get off the ball. Especially for me, man. They were super in the gaps, I made the right play all night."

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/280543/Anthony-Edwards-Defends-Lack-Of-Shots-In-Narrow-Game-4-Loss-To-Thunder

"It's an urge that I want to get the ball in the rim, put it up there," Edwards said. "But you don't want to take bad shots and get your team out of rhythm. So I was just playing the game the right way, man."

Of course, he had 13 FGA and shot poorly. He was 1/7 from 3 and 4/8 from inside the arc (about his RS 2P% and about 2% worse than his playoff 2P%), had 5 turnovers and struggled at the line a bit. It was not a pretty game. He got pretty close to the basket on 5 of his FGA, which was good, and he got to the line well beyond that.

There, the problem was his unwillingness to play the middle, as opposed to his inability to get to the rim. This is a good example of what happens when you are nothing more than rim-or-3, which is a whole separate conversation, but emblematic of his season. This was a 2-point loss and he stank. He was passive, coughed it up a lot and blew as a scorer. Not a game where it is fair to overly criticize his use of athleticism, but more an opportunity for me to whine about how many players have forgotten the mid-range game and don't appreciate how variance functions for low-FG% shots like volume 3pt shooting (even at elite levels). He didn't have a counter, and instead fell back on the excuse of "I didn't want to take bad shots," which is frustrating.

Disappointing performance; not a good example of my earlier criticism, though, and he actually did a pretty decent job getting to the basket.

[tamaraw08]

Ultimately, he's still a 6'4" guy driving the ball. When guard-sized players collapse the defense, it's best to pass rather than constantly attempt shots against centers. It's not like Dwyane Wade was always posting more dominant numbers at the rim. Continuing to develop his playmaking off drives is where he'll really become a driver of elite offense.

So this comes back to what he was saying after his disappointing performance, I guess.

"I don't look at it like I struggled, or [Randle] struggled," Edwards said. "They just, they had a good game plan, making us get off the ball. Especially for me, man. They were super in the gaps, I made the right play all night."

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/280543/Anthony-Edwards-Defends-Lack-Of-Shots-In-Narrow-Game-4-Loss-To-Thunder

"It's an urge that I want to get the ball in the rim, put it up there," Edwards said. "But you don't want to take bad shots and get your team out of rhythm. So I was just playing the game the right way, man."

Of course, he had 13 FGA and shot poorly. He was 1/7 from 3 and 4/8 from inside the arc (about his RS 2P% and about 2% worse than his playoff 2P%), had 5 turnovers and struggled at the line a bit. It was not a pretty game. He got pretty close to the basket on 5 of his FGA, which was good, and he got to the line well beyond that.

There, the problem was his unwillingness to play the middle, as opposed to his inability to get to the rim. This is a good example of what happens when you are nothing more than rim-or-3, which is a whole separate conversation, but emblematic of his season. This was a 2-point loss and he stank. He was passive, coughed it up a lot and blew as a scorer. Not a game where it is fair to overly criticize his use of athleticism, but more an opportunity for me to whine about how many players have forgotten the mid-range game and don't appreciate how variance functions for low-FG% shots like volume 3pt shooting (even at elite levels). He didn't have a counter, and instead fell back on the excuse of "I didn't want to take bad shots," which is frustrating.

Disappointing performance; not a good example of my earlier criticism, though, and he actually did a pretty decent job getting to the basket.

Him saying that he and Randle didn't "struggle" shows that he's not examining key stats like turnovers and assists etc. They combined for 10 turnovers to 9 assists.
OKC was clogging the middle and was choosing to leave the corners open and he had 2-3 teammates finding their rhythm and constantly hitting those wide open corner 3's for this particular game.
And He also didn't trust his 15-17 ft pull up jumpers.
The guy is just 23 years old and I expect him to study more game films and learn from this but I don't have much hope for Randle.
The guy just reverted back to his old bully ball player that he was, failing to read and react and not knowing when to attack or pass

[tsherkin]

Him saying that he and Randle didn't "struggle" shows that he's not examining key stats like turnovers and assists etc. They combined for 10 turnovers to 9 assists.

Yeah, I mean it's clear he was trying to make excuses. And that whole "bad shots" and "flow" thing was ridiculous.

And He also didn't trust his 15-17 ft pull up jumpers.

Yep, that's what I was largely getting at. That 10- to 17-foot space is WIDE OPEN for the taking. You watch the game and he just has endless opportunities to get a clean look from those places and just didn't. Definitely still settles for 3s too much. It's all very Jayson Tatum-esque right now, which is not a compliment in this moment (Tatum being another very good player who is too extreme in this regard).

We'll see what happens, how he adapts from it.

[sikma42]

Him saying that he and Randle didn't "struggle" shows that he's not examining key stats like turnovers and assists etc. They combined for turnovers assists.

Yeah, I mean it's clear he was trying to make excuses. And that whole "bad shots" and "flow" thing was ridiculous.

And He also didn't trust his -foot space is WIDE OPEN for the taking. You watch the game and he just has endless opportunities to get a clean look from those places and just didn't. Definitely still settles for threes too much. It's all very Jayson Tatum-esque right now, which is not a compliment in this moment (Tatum being another very good player who is too extreme in this regard).

We'll see what happens, how he adapts from it.

I don’t think Ant can get to that space to create a look. Right not the only way he’s getting to the lane is picking up the ball and just almost recklessly running into a gather. He hasn’t show the ability to get to those spots in control consistently pull or up against this kind of defense. It was similar to the issue he had last year in the playoffs.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[tsherkin]

I don’t think Ant can get to that space to create a look. Right not the only way he’s getting to the lane is picking up the ball and just almost recklessly running into a gather. He hasn’t show the ability to get to those spots in control consistently pull or up against this kind of defense. It was similar to the issue he had last year in the playoffs.

And that's a major limitation for him which he needs to overcome if he wants to deserve a lot of the buzz his fans want to give him.

[tamaraw08]

Him saying that he and Randle didn't "struggle" shows that he's not examining key stats like turnovers and assists etc. They combined for 10 turnovers to 9 assists.

Yeah, I mean it's clear he was trying to make excuses. And that whole "bad shots" and "flow" thing was ridiculous.

And He also didn't trust his 15-17 ft pull up jumpers.

Yep, that's what I was largely getting at. That 10- to 17-foot space is WIDE OPEN for the taking. You watch the game and he just has endless opportunities to get a clean look from those places and just didn't. Definitely still settles for 3s too much. It's all very Jayson Tatum-esque right now, which is not a compliment in this moment (Tatum being another very good player who is too extreme in this regard).

We'll see what happens, how he adapts from it.

Per bbref, Ant has a career % of
37.5% from 10-16 feet,
actually regressed this RS to 34% and under 43% this current playoffs. I just can't help but wonder if there's a nerd from the Minnesota camp who embraced the Darryl Morey principle that it's better and beneficial to shoot 36% from 3 than shoot under 50% from 10-20 feet.

[tsherkin]

Per bbref, Ant has a career % of
37.5% from 10-16 feet,
actually regressed this RS to 34% and under 43% this current playoffs. I just can't help but wonder if there's a nerd from the Minnesota camp who embraced the Darryl Morey principle that it's better and beneficial to shoot 36% from 3 than shoot under 50% from 10-20 feet.

Yeah, but he also takes the 10-16' shot on like 8% of his total volume, or approximately 0.67 FGA/g, so that specific percentage means only so much.

The problem here is that if he's getting run off the 3-point line or shooting terribly from there (as is inevitable with the percentages even elite guys shoot from 3) and is walled off from the paint, he needs SOMETHING as a go-to so that he can score in a game like this one. They dropped a big game by 2 because he couldn't create in the middle space. Like, from the POV of purely maximizing efficiency, sure, don't take those shots... but from a reality POV, you need to take those shots. And someone like his opponent, SGA, is a clear example of how to do that well. And this new age of high-variance guys are discovering the flaw in their approach.

EDIT: Besides, it's not like Ant has historically been staggeringly efficient in the RS to begin with. He's been below league average every year of his career except this one.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

RONNIE FIELDS !!!!

WHAT A FREAK

[Michael Doleac]

Per bbref, Ant has a career % of
37.5% from 10-16 feet,
actually regressed this RS to 34% and under 43% this current playoffs. I just can't help but wonder if there's a nerd from the Minnesota camp who embraced the Darryl Morey principle that it's better and beneficial to shoot 36% from 3 than shoot under 50% from 10-20 feet.

Yeah, but he also takes the 10-16' shot on like 8% of his total volume, or approximately 0.67 FGA/g, so that specific percentage means only so much.

The problem here is that if he's getting run off the 3-point line or shooting terribly from there (as is inevitable with the percentages even elite guys shoot from 3) and is walled off from the paint, he needs SOMETHING as a go-to so that he can score in a game like this one. They dropped a big game by 2 because he couldn't create in the middle space. Like, from the POV of purely maximizing efficiency, sure, don't take those shots... but from a reality POV, you need to take those shots. And someone like his opponent, SGA, is a clear example of how to do that well. And this new age of high-variance guys are discovering the flaw in their approach.

EDIT: Besides, it's not like Ant has historically been staggeringly efficient in the RS to begin with. He's been below league average every year of his career except this one.

Ehh..not quite

[tsherkin]

Ehh..not quite

Based on...?

[Heej]

Derrick Jones Jr, Emmanuel Mudiay, Dennis Smith Jr., Scoot Henderson.

None of them have his deceleration

[Heej]

Power and balance are very underrated and hard to gauge in a combine setting. Most of the guys that succeed like Ant have it on ways some of the more awkward and less functional athletes don’t. Guys like Wiggins, Gerald Green, etc look similar when they are in an open court setting, but when people are getting bumped, pulled, and bodies are flying, the Wade’s and Ant’s seperate themselves.

The S tier guys have great deceleration to go with their acceleration. All that strength and body control is expressed in their ability to decelerate along with taking contact

[Anderson Hunt]

he doesn't look like 6'4... he's definitely taller than DWade

Wade is 6ft3 without shoes, Ant is 6ft4 without shoes...

So he's a half inch shorter than Jordan.

[cupcakesnake]

Ultimately, he's still a 6'4" guy driving the ball. When guard-sized players collapse the defense, it's best to pass rather than constantly attempt shots against centers. It's not like Dwyane Wade was always posting more dominant numbers at the rim. Continuing to develop his playmaking off drives is where he'll really become a driver of elite offense.

So this comes back to what he was saying after his disappointing performance, I guess.

"I don't look at it like I struggled, or [Randle] struggled," Edwards said. "They just, they had a good game plan, making us get off the ball. Especially for me, man. They were super in the gaps, I made the right play all night."

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/280543/Anthony-Edwards-Defends-Lack-Of-Shots-In-Narrow-Game-4-Loss-To-Thunder

"It's an urge that I want to get the ball in the rim, put it up there," Edwards said. "But you don't want to take bad shots and get your team out of rhythm. So I was just playing the game the right way, man."

Of course, he had 13 FGA and shot poorly. He was 1/7 from 3 and 4/8 from inside the arc (about his RS 2P% and about 2% worse than his playoff 2P%), had 5 turnovers and struggled at the line a bit. It was not a pretty game. He got pretty close to the basket on 5 of his FGA, which was good, and he got to the line well beyond that.

There, the problem was his unwillingness to play the middle, as opposed to his inability to get to the rim. This is a good example of what happens when you are nothing more than rim-or-3, which is a whole separate conversation, but emblematic of his season. This was a 2-point loss and he stank. He was passive, coughed it up a lot and blew as a scorer. Not a game where it is fair to overly criticize his use of athleticism, but more an opportunity for me to whine about how many players have forgotten the mid-range game and don't appreciate how variance functions for low-FG% shots like volume 3pt shooting (even at elite levels). He didn't have a counter, and instead fell back on the excuse of "I didn't want to take bad shots," which is frustrating.

Disappointing performance; not a good example of my earlier criticism, though, and he actually did a pretty decent job getting to the basket.

Tbh, I'm not that interested in making strong analysis on players going up against probably the greatest defense in the history of NBA basketball. There's another thread where people are saying Randle is trash too despite him being so solid all playoffs. I've watched both these players all season, seen their ups and downs, and didn't overreact to beating weaker opponents. I went into this series expecting a pretty big doozy. I've been pleasantly surprised with Ant, as I expected more games like the other night. OKC has 3 guys who play DPOY level defense, another 3-4 at an all-defense level, and then even their deep bench guys (Wiggins, Kenrich) are super competent defensive players. I kept the same energy in the Denver series, as fans were taking swiped at Jokic and Murray (and even poor injured MPJ)... This is simply not a normal situation and if people are indexing their player analysis on a series against OKC, it should be understood we're evaluating these guys in an outlier difficult situation.

I personally didn't care much about Ant having this one really awful scoring performance. He still executed his role in our offense (bring 2 to the ball and be proactive with initiating the ball movement. It honestly reminded me of the criticism Tatum was picking up last playoff run. He was doing his job (drawing the defense and creating the advantage) but it became a thankless task because he wasn't the one getting good looks. Minnesota almost won game 4, and I was really happy with how the team played overall. Ant looked kind of bad, but we put up a 133 Otg against OK-frick-C! Jaden, NAW, and DDV don't get the same kinds of looks without drawing the defense and being a willing passer. Holy crap was OKC ever able to make his life miserable. Not only do they show him top flight ball pressure without sacrificing any rim protection, they also swarm his passing angles. Caruso and J.Dub were brilliant in how they'd rotate in the way of the best pass, and run in to disrupt it.

The midrange stuff... I'm with you at a surface level, but it's hard for me not to point the finger at the coaching staff. A big part of developing Ant in Minnesota has been getting him to kick the instinct to pull up immediately when he gets to the lane. When he was younger, it was practically a rule. The earlier vision with Ant was to develop him as a driving playmaker, and put him in an offense where he'd get lots of catch & shoot threes. All Ant really wants to do is pull up for shots, but he's proved very coachable being nudged towards a more efficient version of himself. Ant is sort of interesting because he's 23, has all the talent in the world, isn't a natural baller playmaker, but has shown a consistent ability to be coached and improve in various capacities. The shooting consistency and variety has improved every year. The playmaking has felt more up and down, but he's show bigger playmaking capacity every year, and it shows up more in the playoffs. Last year he was just a "hit the corners" guy, where now he drives and can make 3 different types of kick out passes. His interior passing has always been non-existent, but this year we've seen a few glimpses. Anyways... Ant not having dominant Kawhi-like midrange counters isn't high on my priority list. Like I'm glad we're assessing his game on that level, but to me this is still a boy that's 3 years away from his prime.

[tsherkin]

Tbh, I'm not that interested in making strong analysis on players going up against probably the greatest defense in the history of NBA basketball.

I mean, we're obviously broadening out to discuss the season as a whole, not just this one series (nor just the most recent game).

There's another thread where people are saying Randle is trash too despite him being so solid all playoffs.

Yeah, having a bad game or a bad moment or whatever should not define a player. It's very "in the moment."

I personally didn't care much about Ant having this one really awful scoring performance.

No, the one poor scoring performance itself isn't the issue. It's more that he needs to adapt his game so that he has some other options that's the salient discussion point. This all started with a discussion of how he uses his athleticism in a broader way, and he obviously isn't as dominant in that regard as some others, but that also wasn't the primary reason behind his underperformance (as a scorer) in the most recent game.

The midrange stuff... I'm with you at a surface level, but it's hard for me not to point the finger at the coaching staff. A big part of developing Ant in Minnesota has been getting him to kick the instinct to pull up immediately when he gets to the lane. When he was younger, it was practically a rule. The earlier vision with Ant was to develop him as a driving playmaker, and put him in an offense where he'd get lots of catch & shoot threes. All Ant really wants to do is pull up for shots, but he's proved very coachable being nudged towards a more efficient version of himself. Ant is sort of interesting because he's 23, has all the talent in the world, isn't a natural baller playmaker, but has shown a consistent ability to be coached and improve in various capacities. The shooting consistency and variety has improved every year. The playmaking has felt more up and down, but he's show bigger playmaking capacity every year, and it shows up more in the playoffs. Last year he was just a "hit the corners" guy, where now he drives and can make 3 different types of kick out passes. His interior passing has always been non-existent, but this year we've seen a few glimpses.

There's lots to enjoy about his development, no doubt.

Anyways... Ant not having dominant Kawhi-like midrange counters isn't high on my priority list. Like I'm glad we're assessing his game on that level, but to me this is still a boy that's 3 years away from his prime.

Yeah, he's got time. He's young, he's athletic, he's improved his 3pt shooting DRAMATICALLY (like, to a highly atypical extent, as we have gone back and forth over this all season), and that's impressive on its own. He finally made the leap to positive efficiency in the RS, which was also nice, and is a strong indicator.

But yeah, the next wrinkle in his development is finding those extra things which help him add consistency and counter what defenses do to him. It's an arms race as a volume scorer, that's nothing new. You have to keep adapting, or you're going to struggle pretty badly against certain teams, right?

[reddyplayerone]

Obviously Ant is one of the most athletic players in league history but can anyone recall players with similar athleticism that didn’t work out in the league?

I was watching Terrance Shannon who is extremely athletic but was still clearly nowhere near as athletic as Ant and just thought it was interesting..

Harold Miner

[AbeVigodaLive]

Him saying that he and Randle didn't "struggle" shows that he's not examining key stats like turnovers and assists etc. They combined for 10 turnovers to 9 assists.

Yeah, I mean it's clear he was trying to make excuses. And that whole "bad shots" and "flow" thing was ridiculous.

And He also didn't trust his 15-17 ft pull up jumpers.

Yep, that's what I was largely getting at. That 10- to 17-foot space is WIDE OPEN for the taking. You watch the game and he just has endless opportunities to get a clean look from those places and just didn't. Definitely still settles for 3s too much. It's all very Jayson Tatum-esque right now, which is not a compliment in this moment (Tatum being another very good player who is too extreme in this regard).

We'll see what happens, how he adapts from it.

Minnesota has scored 143 and 126 with great efficiency in back-to-back games vs. what is deemed a great defense, even historically good to great.

And that's with Edwards only taking 30 shots combined in those games. Is taking mid-range shots vs. some of the game's best defenders who are doubling him really going to help the TEAM offense get better than they've been?

Wolves coaches and fans have been clamoring for Edwards to make the simple, easy play instead of the homerun play for years. When he does that, the team usually thrives offensively.

Now, the narrative is "BuT StaRS tAkE the SHotS nO MatTEr WhAT!" I get that Edwards should have more of an impact on the game... but (1) he's not good enough yet and (2) it's dumb when it's an OKC Thunder team doubling him at halfcourt and 46.7% of the time...

I hope he finds the right balance where he forces his will more, but avoids the trappings of hero ball because the narratives demand he shoot no matter what. Bottom line... we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Wolves (including Edwards) played better defense. They'd have won and the masses would have found a different narrative to push... probably something about "WhAt's wRONg with oKc'S dEFensE?"



[Note: I suspect he'll continue to get better at the subtle nuances of the game like SGA, Brunson and others... and pick up a few tips on how to get to the free throw line a bit more along the way, too. That will unlock a sometimes missing part of his game and make a huge impact in games when it's tougher to get his shot off... or in the hoop.]

[reddyplayerone]

he doesn't look like 6'4... he's definitely taller than DWade

Wade is 6ft3 without shoes, Ant is 6ft4 without shoes...

So he's a half inch shorter than Jordan.

I heard Wade on a podcast say he's 6'3" on a good day

Ant and D'angelo Russell looked like they were pretty much exactly the same height and DLO has been listed at 6'3" his whole career I'm pretty sure

MJ I thought was confirmed at 6'4 1/2" at the Olympics?

[SeattleJazzFan]

Obviously Ant is one of the most athletic players in league history but can anyone recall players with similar athleticism that didn’t work out in the league?

I was watching Terrance Shannon who is extremely athletic but was still clearly nowhere near as athletic as Ant and just thought it was interesting..

terrance stansbury. carrey scurry. zaire smith. stevie thompson. they are everywhere.

[tsherkin]

Minnesota has scored 143 and 126 with great efficiency in back-to-back games vs. what is deemed a great defense, even historically good to great.

And that's with Edwards only taking 30 shots combined in those games. Is taking mid-range shots vs. some of the game's best defenders who are doubling him really going to help the TEAM offense get better than they've been?

Yes. Visibly. On a night when his 3 wasn't falling, taking higher-percentage shots would have helped close the gap in what was otherwise a 2-point loss. He doesn't need to spam 10 of them a game, but he needs to have something to do when he's dogging it from 3, instead of continuing to brick mercilessly.

[Note: I suspect he'll continue to get better at the subtle nuances of the game like SGA, Brunson and others... and pick up a few tips on how to get to the free throw line a bit more along the way, too. That will unlock a sometimes missing part of his game and make a huge impact in games when it's tougher to get his shot off... or in the hoop.]

I expect this is correct as well. He had a big leap forward as a 3pt shooter this season, and that's helped a lot, but now he needs to refine his approach to the game, which is a common element of advancement into and through a player's prime, no doubt.

But that doesn't preclude discussion ABOUT the need to do that.