How is this not a super Mid plan? what's the pitch on our direction

[Raps in 4]

Yeah, some of us having been saying all of this for years, they're betting everything on Ingram's questionable health record now because they are desperate. Since the title the Raptors have made the playoffs twice in 6 years and won a single playoff round, and that was with good chunks of title team still mostly intact back in 2020. That's a poor record for any highly paid executive that is looking for a new contract like Masai and Bobby are, there's immense pressure on them to get this team back into the playoffs and show things are moving forward in a positive direction.

They've literally done a worse job then the majority of fans would've on this board...

Id say the consensus of fans on here decisions leaned:

- Kept Norm Powell.

- Traded FVV, OG, Siakam earlier when value was higher for better returns.

- Committed to rebuild earlier (we were 5th worse team = Wemby slot before trading for Poeltl, shouldve went full rebuild)

- Not traded multiple 1st round picks for treadmill moves.

-Not traded top 10 pick for Poeltl.

I feel like there's more no Brainer ones.

If they get fired can't say the didn't earn it.

This board would have picked Sugg over Barnes.

That top ten pick ending up being little Rob Dillingham who hopefully one day will be a 6 man. I would have traded Dillingham for a starter in Poeltl.

13 other teams some with better odds didn't win the Wemby lottery. It's called a lottery for a reason.


The year after he left Toronto Norm Powell played 27 games, next year 40, next year 7. He averages under 2 assists a game. Bad defense. 20 million was too much.

Listening to podcasts can be bad for your health. They are trying to get you raging so you tune in.

Suggs has actually turned into a pretty good role player. Just like Scottie. Scottie's development stagnated after his rookie season while Suggs improved. They're pretty similar in terms of their impact now.

You're also assuming we would have taken Dillingham with our pick last year.

[RaptorPride]

I really don't know how to feel about the Raptors. Masai said playins for what but this team seems very middle of the pack kind of team. I can't see this team becoming a contender until we make some more major trades. I feel like he wants to just let them all play and hopefully they all put up nice stats so he can sell high this deadline or next summer.

I feel like this is still pretty risky move they are taking. You gotta have high belief in you developmental team to do this.

If we get a top 6 seed next year I would give this team another year together after that. If not I'm trying to trade who ever I can to get young players or picks but I don't know if Masai would do that.

[Pointgod]

We'll see how we look after the offseason. I know the Pacers run to the Finals is a big inspiration right now

Huge difference with us and the Pacers is that Pacers traded away vets for young assets and picks. They traded an allstar Center for a 21 year old guard averaging 14 and 7 who turned into an all-nba player. They traded Malcolm Brogdan to get Aaron Nesmith and a first round pick. They traded Caris Levert to get picks that became Ben Shepard and Andrew Nembhard. They sucked for 3 straight seasons to end up with the 13th, 6th and 8th picks. So when it came time to trade for Siakam they got him for free without affecting their depth.

We’ve done the opposite where we’ve traded picks to save money and get veteran help, then tried to fast track a rebuild. Now we’re paying close to luxury tax for team whose ceiling is a first round knockout.

[Duffman100]

We'll see how we look after the offseason. I know the Pacers run to the Finals is a big inspiration right now

Huge difference with us and the Pacers is that Pacers traded away vets for young assets and picks. They traded an allstar Center for a 21 year old guard averaging 14 and 7 who turned into an all-nba player. They traded Malcolm Brogdan to get Aaron Nesmith and a first round pick. They traded Caris Levert to get picks that became Ben Shepard and Andrew Nembhard. They sucked for 3 straight seasons to end up with the 13th, 6th and 8th picks. So when it came time to trade for Siakam they got him for free without affecting their depth.

We’ve done the opposite where we’ve traded picks to save money and get veteran help, then tried to fast track a rebuild. Now we’re paying close to luxury tax for team whose ceiling is a first round knockout.

And to be fair, there is no one on this board who can say they predicted the Pacers would be heading to the NBA finals.

In fact, everyone, myself included , was critical of us giving up the Pacers pick next year because we thought they'd potentially implode.

Just evidence that so much can rapidly change in the league.

[Pointgod]

Does it not seem that Masai again just decided on taking shortcuts when he finally had the chance to rebuild properly + with patience?

Yes because that’s exactly what he did.

It actually won't be surprising if we get burned and suffer the consequences of these "team building shortcuts."

Even if it works out. Where do you see this team in 3 years? Are we going to extend Ingram if the most success we’ve had with him is a first round exit?

Can anyone provide some realistic framework to becoming a contender?

You’ll get the same tired talking points that Masai can just pull another Demar Derozan trade which is pure cope. Probably half the teams in the Eastern conference could make this same argument for them to become contenders.

It does seem like somewhat of a depressing outlook from a "building a contender" big picture perspective.

You mean banking the success of your team on a guy who hasn’t played over 65 games since his rookie season? That’s not even getting into the fact the playing style of our starting lineup doesn’t fit together.

[RaptorPride]

We'll see how we look after the offseason. I know the Pacers run to the Finals is a big inspiration right now

Huge difference with us and the Pacers is that Pacers traded away vets for young assets and picks. They traded an allstar Center for a 21 year old guard averaging 14 and 7 who turned into an all-nba player. They traded Malcolm Brogdan to get Aaron Nesmith and a first round pick. They traded Caris Levert to get picks that became Ben Shepard and Andrew Nembhard. They sucked for 3 straight seasons to end up with the 13th, 6th and 8th picks. So when it came time to trade for Siakam they got him for free without affecting their depth.

We’ve done the opposite where we’ve traded picks to save money and get veteran help, then tried to fast track a rebuild. Now we’re paying close to luxury tax for team whose ceiling is a first round knockout.

Would you trade BI and Poeltl or RJ for Paul George and the third pick?

Tell Paul George he can stay home if he wants and we play the rest of our guys and maybe find a trade for IQ. And see if this team sinks or floats after that?

[ash_k]

IQ vs Hali
RJ vs Nembhard
BI vs Nesmith
Scottie vs Pascal (Pascal cannot guard Scottie, like OG cant guard Pascal)
Yak vs Turner

And are you overwhelmed by the Pacers bench?
Toppin (Boucher/Mogbo)
Bradley
T.J. (Shead)
Mathurin (Gradey)
Sheppard (JaKobe)
Still nothing to declare with Jarace Walker, the prospect everybody wanted for Pascal but only the end of year 2 (our 9th pick)

it comes down to the coaching and finding out if our players can raise their game in the playoffs like a Nembhard. We need to know ASAP as I have had my doubts about IQ.

[RaptorPride]

IQ vs Hali
RJ vs Nembhard
BI vs Nesmith
Scottie vs Pascal (Pascal cannot guard Scottie, like OG cant guard Pascal)
Yak vs Turner

And are you overwhelmed by the Pacers bench?
Toppin (Boucher/Mogbo)
Bradley
T.J. (Shead)
Mathurin (Gradey)
Sheppard (JaKobe)
Still nothing to declare with Jarace Walker, the prospect everybody wanted for Pascal but only the end of year 2 (our 9th pick)

it comes down to the coaching and finding out if our players can raise their game in the playoffs like a Nembhard. We need to know ASAP as I have had my doubts about IQ.

The thing is Halis playmaking and pass first mentality is what gives everyone on that team an extra kick. Gives them an ease of mind that they will get the ball and shots. So they are willing to play hard and move the ball knowing they will get it back if they are open. I just don't see anyone on the team that can do that. Barnes possibly but his play making is not on that level.

[Pointgod]

We'll see how we look after the offseason. I know the Pacers run to the Finals is a big inspiration right now

Huge difference with us and the Pacers is that Pacers traded away vets for young assets and picks. They traded an allstar Center for a 21 year old guard averaging 14 and 7 who turned into an all-nba player. They traded Malcolm Brogdan to get Aaron Nesmith and a first round pick. They traded Caris Levert to get picks that became Ben Shepard and Andrew Nembhard. They sucked for 3 straight seasons to end up with the 13th, 6th and 8th picks. So when it came time to trade for Siakam they got him for free without affecting their depth.

We’ve done the opposite where we’ve traded picks to save money and get veteran help, then tried to fast track a rebuild. Now we’re paying close to luxury tax for team whose ceiling is a first round knockout.

And to be fair, there is no one on this board who can say they predicted the Pacers would be heading to the NBA finals.

In fact, everyone, myself included , was critical of us giving up the Pacers pick next year because we thought they'd potentially implode.

Just evidence that so much can rapidly change in the league.

Naw you were hoping for the Pacers to implode. There was no rational argument for the Pacers to become a bad team next year.

Pacers were in the WCF last year. I think we were underrating them to not think they could repeat, especially since the playoffs are so match up dependent. It’s not like they’re a finals team out of nowhere. And they were already a top 6 team before adding Siakam.

[Duffman100]

Huge difference with us and the Pacers is that Pacers traded away vets for young assets and picks. They traded an allstar Center for a 21 year old guard averaging 14 and 7 who turned into an all-nba player. They traded Malcolm Brogdan to get Aaron Nesmith and a first round pick. They traded Caris Levert to get picks that became Ben Shepard and Andrew Nembhard. They sucked for 3 straight seasons to end up with the 13th, 6th and 8th picks. So when it came time to trade for Siakam they got him for free without affecting their depth.

We’ve done the opposite where we’ve traded picks to save money and get veteran help, then tried to fast track a rebuild. Now we’re paying close to luxury tax for team whose ceiling is a first round knockout.

And to be fair, there is no one on this board who can say they predicted the Pacers would be heading to the NBA finals.

In fact, everyone, myself included , was critical of us giving up the Pacers pick next year because we thought they'd potentially implode.

Just evidence that so much can rapidly change in the league.

Naw you were hoping for the Pacers to implode. There was no rational argument for the Pacers to become a bad team next year.

Pacers were in the WCF last year. I think we were underrating them to not think they could repeat, especially since the playoffs are so match up dependent. It’s not like they’re a finals team out of nowhere. And they were already a top 6 team before adding Siakam.

Go back to when we traded that pick. A large sentiment was that it had a high chance of being a value pick.

Nobody thought this was an NBA finals team. Everyone figured they topped out at the 2nd round.

Pacers are the prime example of never tanking and rebuilding "properly".

[DelAbbot]

What everyone fails to remember is that Poeltl is a championship caliber center. All we need is the rest.

And when you can trade for a championship caliber center like Poeltl with just 1 FRP, you do it, always - no matter the context

[DelAbbot]

Why is this current roster viewed as the final product?

because
1) we are capped financially and
2) soon to be capped in draft standings (too good to be in the lottery) and
3) our top guys are not showing much growth anymore

[Scase]

I was listening to the most recent Ringer NBA show and they brought up some good points:

- Replacing Siakam with Ingram is a downgrade and hes going to be 28 yrs old before the season starts.

- We are basically trying to build an offense around Ingram + Barnes (challenging/concerns) to try and be a 6th seed.

- We arent likely to add anymore top prospects to the core now that we'll be "middling playoff team" territory in the weak East.

When looking at this big picture it does seem abit pessimistic, and that this was a poorly executed rebuild + low ceiling plan.

I know it gets billed as "asset accumulation" but its actually not that simple as these decisions basically effect your entire direction.

Does it not seem that Masai again just decided on taking shortcuts when he finally had the chance to rebuild properly + with patience?

It actually won't be surprising if we get burned and suffer the consequences of these "team building shortcuts."

Can anyone provide some realistic framework to becoming a contender?

It does seem like somewhat of a depressing outlook from a "building a contender" big picture perspective.

Treadmill so Masai gets a new contract and Ed gets playoff revenue, that's the short term plan, with no foreseeable long term plan in place. Masai doesn't rebuild, he retools, this is no different. Cept this time he doesn't have a bunch of assets being inherited from a previous exec and only has his own mess to clean up.

[Duffman100]

Why is this current roster viewed as the final product?

because
1) we are capped financially and
2) soon to be capped in draft standings (too good to be in the lottery) and
3) our top guys are not showing much growth anymore

Right so trades just can't happen I suppose. This sounds familiar...

[Duffman100]

It's the same people that flood threads like these that offer no value to forum outside of incessant complaining.

[earthtone]

Anyone who thinks RealGM commenters would do a better job running an NBA franchise than Masai can’t be taken seriously

[ash_k]

Anyone who thinks RealGM commenters would do a better job running an NBA franchise than Masai can’t be taken seriously

And it is clear that they don't know healthy BI in the playoffs (against the Suns- a Tatum) ..against OKC he was coming back from knee injury.
That series against the Suns, he looked like a future Great(no exaggeration). Now if McK can maintain him! I

[deck]

I was listening to the most recent Ringer NBA show and they brought up some good points:

- Replacing Siakam with Ingram is a downgrade and hes going to be 28 yrs old before the season starts.

- We are basically trying to build an offense around Ingram + Barnes (challenging/concerns) to try and be a 6th seed.

- We arent likely to add anymore top prospects to the core now that we'll be "middling playoff team" territory in the weak East.

When looking at this big picture it does seem abit pessimistic, and that this was a poorly executed rebuild + low ceiling plan.

I know it gets billed as "asset accumulation" but its actually not that simple as these decisions basically effect your entire direction.

Does it not seem that Masai again just decided on taking shortcuts when he finally had the chance to rebuild properly + with patience?

It actually won't be surprising if we get burned and suffer the consequences of these "team building shortcuts."

Can anyone provide some realistic framework to becoming a contender?

It does seem like somewhat of a depressing outlook from a "building a contender" big picture perspective.

Treadmill so Masai gets a new contract and Ed gets playoff revenue, that's the short term plan, with no foreseeable long term plan in place. Masai doesn't rebuild, he retools, this is no different. Cept this time he doesn't have a bunch of assets being inherited from a previous exec and only has his own mess to clean up.

We have better assets on the roster right now vs when Masai took over.

[ash_k]

IQ vs Hali
RJ vs Nembhard
BI vs Nesmith
Scottie vs Pascal (Pascal cannot guard Scottie, like OG cant guard Pascal)
Yak vs Turner

And are you overwhelmed by the Pacers bench?
Toppin (Boucher/Mogbo)
Bradley
T.J. (Shead)
Mathurin (Gradey)
Sheppard (JaKobe)
Still nothing to declare with Jarace Walker, the prospect everybody wanted for Pascal but only the end of year 2 (our 9th pick)

it comes down to the coaching and finding out if our players can raise their game in the playoffs like a Nembhard. We need to know ASAP as I have had my doubts about IQ.

The thing is Halis playmaking and pass first mentality is what gives everyone on that team an extra kick. Gives them an ease of mind that they will get the ball and shots. So they are willing to play hard and move the ball knowing they will get it back if they are open. I just don't see anyone on the team that can do that. Barnes possibly but his play making is not on that level.

Hali has had bad games in those playoffs but he is certainly on the rise and has made big shots but talent wise on paper , you can't tell me they are better than us with BI, can you? Our starting 5 is more talented and it is not that close but Smith , Nembhard & TJ are playoffs performers.

[wegotthabeet]

Yeah, some of us having been saying all of this for years, they're betting everything on Ingram's questionable health record now because they are desperate. Since the title the Raptors have made the playoffs twice in 6 years and won a single playoff round, and that was with good chunks of title team still mostly intact back in 2020. That's a poor record for any highly paid executive that is looking for a new contract like Masai and Bobby are, there's immense pressure on them to get this team back into the playoffs and show things are moving forward in a positive direction.

They've literally done a worse job then the majority of fans would've on this board...

Id say the consensus of fans on here decisions leaned:

- Kept Norm Powell.

- Traded FVV, OG, Siakam earlier when value was higher for better returns.

- Committed to rebuild earlier (we were 5th worse team = Wemby slot before trading for Poeltl, shouldve went full rebuild)

- Not traded multiple 1st round picks for treadmill moves.

-Not traded top 10 pick for Poeltl.

I feel like there's more no Brainer ones.

If they get fired can't say the didn't earn it.

What were the superior offers we were getting for OG, Siakam, and FVV?

well if they started the rebuild after the Tampa season (when they should have) the offers would've been pretty nice.

Based on reports:

At the 2021 draft the Warriors offered Wiggins, the 7th overall pick & 14th overall pick (or Wiseman) for Siakam.

At the 2022 draft the Blazers offered the 7th overall pick OG.

At the 2023 deadline the Bucks offered Grayson Allen and a future first pick (reportedly in 2029) for Vanvleet.

I'm also going to assume Masai hits on most if not all high picks since he is a top 3 drafting GM with a scouting background.

So you're looking at the Raptors rebuilding Barnes + (Kuminga or Wagner) + (Moody, Sengun, Trey Murphy or Jalen Johnson) + (Dyson Daniels, Sharpe or Jalen Williams) + a lotto pick in 2022, a likely higher top ten lotto pick in 2023 instead of Gradey someone like Cason Wallace or maybe even Ausar Thompson, a pick high enough to draft Edey most likely in 2024 and maybe one more lotto pick in 2025.

There's a lot of variance here and what ifs, but given how good they are at drafting the realistic best case would be.

2021: Barnes, Wagner, Sengun
2022: Daniels + J. Williams
2023: Ausar Thompson
2024: Edey
2025: Bryant

Team would be nasty and probably make a team like Houston wish they could build as well, but Masai doesn't take full advantage of his edge over other front offices.