SGA vs Kobe

[Cavsfansince84]

To be fair, that's generally an important element for all teams. And guards aren't shooting a considerably higher raw percentage right now, especially with all the 3pt shooting, so rebounding remains a critical element at either end of the floor.

I think Kobe probably would end up being deployed more as he was under MAD than under Phil, as the triangle hasn't aged well over time (even if the root principles have). So he's got to be imagined in more of a helio role, spamming a lot more PnR and then probably murdering it around the elbows and baseline, plus whenever he got to the rim. Little guard post, ala Jalen Brunson and so forth, that type of thing. Plus, the faster tempo and better spacing would all be a boon to him.

I don't think its quite right to conflate bringing up Kobe's best teams being like top 3 in total rebounding to that just being 'an important element for all teams'. It's not that easy to do and it did make it easier for Kobe to win even when he goes like 7-25 from the field.

[tsherkin]

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I suspect if he had a greater fondness for playing in the flow and taking better shots, he'd have been visibly better, but could dial it up when needed under pressure. I don't think he maxed himself out with the way he played, he routinely made the game harder for himself and his teammates. He was sufficiently incredible that it worked out many times, but his frontcourt saved his bacon a lot.

Because bored, looked up the ORB% across Kobe's main career to mildly test that assertion

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Year   Rank   Rate
2000   5th   0.306
2001   3rd   0.311
2002   7th   0.288
2003   9th   0.302
2004   16th   0.288
2005   10th   0.295
2006   8th   0.288
2007   20th   0.261
2008   20th   0.261
2009   19th   0.263
2010   7th   0.276
2011   5th   0.292

As you'd expect, a team with Prime Shaq bustling inside has excellent ORB and trailed off in aggregate as he aged and his games dropped.

The interesting one for me is 2006, the legendary "but Smush Parker" Kobe season. Brown and Mihm were both pretty effective rebounders in decent minutes. As neither were particular shooting threats, have to imagine this led them to be able to set up for the rebounds exclusively (like Steven Adams this season). Can see this as a good strategy if you've given the greenest light ever to your star guard, especially if they're doing most of their work from further out.

The relatively poor ORB% of the Pau era is sort of interesting and can only put it down to a more nuanced offence that didn't have to be quite as heliocentric as the poorer early teams

For comparison, the past couple of years for Shai. Doesn't surprise me given the small-ball OKC often plays.

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Year   Rank   Rate
2024   21st   0.211
2025   21st   0.242


Again, possible that this is just noise, and doesn't speak to the full gamut of production by the frontcourt (Pau, Shaq and even Odom are some pretty nice pieces).

Worth looking at how much more efficient the Thunder are compared to the Lakers, and how tactically teams in general don't hit the O-boards as much as they used to in order to get back in transition. OKC was also 21st in the league in ORB% this year, and 9th in the playoffs.

Also worth noting is that Hartenstein played 57 games and Chet 32, and while Chet didn't stun on the O-boards, Hartenstein was an 11.2% ORB guy (12.3% in the playoffs).

So health has mattered a little to OKC's attack on the offensive glass.

[tsherkin]

I don't think its quite right to conflate bringing up Kobe's best teams being like top 3 in total rebounding to that just being 'an important element for all teams'. It's not that easy to do and it did make it easier for Kobe to win even when he goes like 7-25 from the field.

The entire point of mentioning how the frontcourt 'saved his bacon a lot' was to center in on that, yes.

[Black Feet]

I don't think its quite right to conflate bringing up Kobe's best teams being like top 3 in total rebounding to that just being 'an important element for all teams'. It's not that easy to do and it did make it easier for Kobe to win even when he goes like 7-25 from the field.

The entire point of mentioning how the frontcourt 'saved his bacon a lot' was to center in on that, yes.

that’s ok because he’s “saved their bacon” a lot more than vice versa

[lessthanjake]

SGA '24 Reg. Season rTS +5.3% ---> SGA '24 Playoffs Defense Adjusted rTS +0.5%

SGA '25 Reg. Season rTS +5.7% ---> SGA '25 Playoffs Defense Adjusted rTS +1.1%

Why are people pretending SGA isn't a Playoff dropper, because he advanced to the Finals?

If you're 'dropping' down to a level that is still superior to the guy you are getting compared to, then it doesn't matter.

Here are Kobe’s playoff rTS% by year, from 1999-2010:

1999: +2.0%
2000: +0.9%
2001: +5.8%
2002: +0.6%
2003: +2.7%
2004: +1.9%
2006: +6.0%
2007: +2.9%
2008: +4.9%
2009: +3.6%
2010: +3.3%

I understand you’ve decided that you don’t like rTS%, but the post you’re responding to was about rTS%, so in that context it really isn’t accurate to say SGA has “‘dropp[ed]' down to a level that is still superior to” Kobe. Kobe generally had a better playoff rTS% than the playoff rTS%’s for SGA that was listed in that post you responded to.

[One_and_Done]

SGA '24 Reg. Season rTS +5.3% ---> SGA '24 Playoffs Defense Adjusted rTS +0.5%

SGA '25 Reg. Season rTS +5.7% ---> SGA '25 Playoffs Defense Adjusted rTS +1.1%

Why are people pretending SGA isn't a Playoff dropper, because he advanced to the Finals?

If you're 'dropping' down to a level that is still superior to the guy you are getting compared to, then it doesn't matter.

Here are Kobe’s playoff rTS% by year, from 1999-2010:

1999: +2.0%
2000: +0.9%
2001: +5.8%
2002: +0.6%
2003: +2.7%
2004: +1.9%
2006: +6.0%
2007: +2.9%
2008: +4.9%
2009: +3.6%
2010: +3.3%

I understand you’ve decided that you don’t like rTS%, but the post you’re responding to was about rTS%, so in that context it really isn’t accurate to say SGA has “‘dropp[ed]' down to a level that is still superior to” Kobe. Kobe generally had a better playoff rTS% than the playoff rTS%’s for SGA that was listed in that post you responded to.

But as you note, I don't care about rTS%, so citing it to me is not a persuasive argument.

[MiamiBulls]

SGA '24 Reg. Season rTS +5.3% ---> SGA '24 Playoffs Defense Adjusted rTS +0.5%

SGA '25 Reg. Season rTS +5.7% ---> SGA '25 Playoffs Defense Adjusted rTS +1.1%

Why are people pretending SGA isn't a Playoff dropper, because he advanced to the Finals?

If you're 'dropping' down to a level that is still superior to the guy you are getting compared to, then it doesn't matter.

Also because his stats are dragged down by the low leverage first round series (pelicans and memphis)

In the actually relevant denver, minny or dallas series he was better

The 2024 Pelicans were the 7th Best Defense in the NBA. The 2025 Grizzlies were the 10th Best Defense.

High leverage? 2024 Mavericks were the 13th Worst Defense in the NBA. The 2025 Nuggets were the 9th Worst Defense in the NBA.

The only good Defense SGA played well against was against the Timberwolves.

[LukaTheGOAT]

You know I kind of feel as if Shai should be better at his best, but by the standards I uphold, he hasnt actually shown this in the PS so far.

For example,

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander averages for the 2025 NBA playoffs so far (per 75):

▫️29.8 points
▫️5.7 rebounds
▫️7.0 assists
▫️1.6 steals
▫️0.5 blocks
▫️58.0 TS% (+1.4 opponent-adjusted rTS%)
▫️-1.0 average opponent-rDRtg quality

Then you compare that to Kobe's creme de la creme:

2007-08 Kobe Bryant’s inflation adjusted averages in the playoffs (per 75):

▫️31.7 points
▫️5.9 rebounds
▫️5.8 assists
▫️2.2 stocks
▫️5.4 rim FGAs (63.3%)
▫️12.3 midrange FGAs (48.8%)
▫️9.6 FTAs (80.9%)
▫️57.7 TS% (+4.9 opponent-adjusted rTS%)
▫️-4.1 average opponent-rDRtg

Kobe has certainly reached higher highs than Shai has in the PS. And I would argue his 09 and 10 runs are superior as well. That 08-10 period is a solid enough sample size, that I believe this peak version of Kobe I have in mind is real.

I think I would bet on Shai having MUCH more impressive runs in the future even if he doesn't necessarily get better. But I do think Shai was uncharacteristically poor to begin this run and has stepped it up. I love Shai's foul-drawing ability, believe he has better touch than Kobe, and overall this should show in time. But it hasn't.

Kobe has done things that Shai hasn't and I'm hesitant to give Shai the nod.

Overall, Kobe has shown to be able a better scorer to date, and is easily the more advanced passer by my eye. Kobe's versatility to play in the triangle, from the high-post, wing, or post is appreciated, and likely helped him gel with Pau.

To me they are comparable defenders. Kobe is a better screen navigator and man defender, but Shai has much better rim-protection. I'm not really opposed if you go either way on this end.

From an all-time perspective, I don't believe Shai has separated himself cleanly from the Kobe's, Wade's, Kawhi's of the world like some people are posturing. He has the blueprint laid out in the RS that suggests he has the skill for it, but once again he hasn't done it.

[LakerLegend]

Funny thing about this is that Shai himself ranks Kobe above Jordan.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Funny thing about this is that Shai himself ranks Kobe above Jordan.

Funny tweet about this topic:

Read on Twitter

[One_and_Done]

Funny thing about this is that Shai himself ranks Kobe above Jordan.

Funny tweet about this topic:

Read on Twitter

Players make alot of inconsistent, hyperbolic comments, it doesn’t mean we should take them seriously.

[LakerLegend]

Funny thing about this is that Shai himself ranks Kobe above Jordan.

Funny tweet about this topic:

Read on Twitter

Why are you quoting nobodies on the internet?

[TheGOATRises007]

Funny thing about this is that Shai himself ranks Kobe above Jordan.

Funny tweet about this topic:

Read on Twitter

Why are you quoting nobodies on the internet?

It's just a funny tweet. No need to take it serious tbh.

[lethalizer]

High leverage? 2024 Mavericks were the 13th Worst Defense in the NBA.

Small objection here. The Mavericks before the mid season trades and the one after the trades were two different teams. Once that unit kinda gelled, their defense was pretty great.

Last 15 games to close out the season Dallas had the number one defense in the entire NBA with a defensive rating of 106.2.

You may call this a bit of a small sample size, but there is a decent argument that Dallas had a great defense entering the playoffs.

[iggymcfrack]

As I've explained in depth before, I don't think Kobe would be any more efficient today.

He definitely would. He chose to take a bunch of low efficiency shots because he was fawned over for it back in the day and compared to MJ. Now that people actually pay attention to efficiency numbers and impact metrics and LeBron's the guy players model themselves after, he would have definitely changed his priorities. He would focus more on his passing (which was excellent when he was trying) and probably eliminate most of his bottom 5-10% shots.

[One_and_Done]

As I've explained in depth before, I don't think Kobe would be any more efficient today.

He definitely would. He chose to take a bunch of low efficiency shots because he was fawned over for it back in the day and compared to MJ. Now that people actually pay attention to efficiency numbers and impact metrics and LeBron's the guy players model themselves after, he would have definitely changed his priorities. He would focus more on his passing (which was excellent when he was trying) and probably eliminate most of his bottom 5-10% shots.

The focus on efficiency shifted during Kobe's career, and he showed almost zero interest in changing how he played. Even in the early 00s Phil Jackson was going crazy over his refusal to play the way he wanted, and not much changed under future coaches. Kobe was all about Kobe, not playing the right way.

[iggymcfrack]

SGA '24 Reg. Season rTS +5.3% ---> SGA '24 Playoffs Defense Adjusted rTS +0.5%

SGA '25 Reg. Season rTS +5.7% ---> SGA '25 Playoffs Defense Adjusted rTS +1.1%

Why are people pretending SGA isn't a Playoff dropper, because he advanced to the Finals?

Focusing everything on rTS% seems a little reductive. There's a lot more to basketball.

SGA '19 (reg season) BPM: -0.5
SGA '19 (postseason) BPM: 2.9

SGA '20 (reg season) BPM: 1.7
SGA '20 (reg season) BPM: 1.8

SGA '24 (reg season) BPM: 9.0
SGA '24 (postseason) BPM: 9.2

SGA '25 (reg season) BPM: 11.5
SGA '25 (postseason BPM): 8.9

This is the first year his BPM didn't go up in the playoffs and even with a dip, it's still 4th among all players in the playoffs and 2nd among all players who made the second round.

[iggymcfrack]

As I've explained in depth before, I don't think Kobe would be any more efficient today.

He definitely would. He chose to take a bunch of low efficiency shots because he was fawned over for it back in the day and compared to MJ. Now that people actually pay attention to efficiency numbers and impact metrics and LeBron's the guy players model themselves after, he would have definitely changed his priorities. He would focus more on his passing (which was excellent when he was trying) and probably eliminate most of his bottom 5-10% shots.

The focus on efficiency shifted during Kobe's career, and he showed almost zero interest in changing how he played. Even in the early 00s Phil Jackson was going crazy over his refusal to play the way he wanted, and not much changed under future coaches. Kobe was all about Kobe, not playing the right way.

There was focus from a coaches' perspective, but Kobe never cared about that. I'm talking about the fan/media perspective. That's what Kobe cared about: adulation, not trying to optimize his game for the team. Nowadays, his efficiency would be discussed on the morning shows for whether he deserves 1st-team all-NBA or not. It would absolutely impact his shot selection.

Also, it's not true that Kobe never changed how he played either. When Pau Gasol got traded to the Lakers and Kobe had a chance to win rings without Shaq, all of a sudden, helping on defense and getting back in transition was cool after all. He still wasn't a great off-ball defender, but he was light years better from 2008-2010 than he'd been the previous 3 seasons. The difference in effort was remarkable.

[iggymcfrack]

SGA '24 Reg. Season rTS +5.3% ---> SGA '24 Playoffs Defense Adjusted rTS +0.5%

SGA '25 Reg. Season rTS +5.7% ---> SGA '25 Playoffs Defense Adjusted rTS +1.1%

Why are people pretending SGA isn't a Playoff dropper, because he advanced to the Finals?

If you're 'dropping' down to a level that is still superior to the guy you are getting compared to, then it doesn't matter.

Here are Kobe’s playoff rTS% by year, from 1999-2010:

1999: +2.0%
2000: +0.9%
2001: +5.8%
2002: +0.6%
2003: +2.7%
2004: +1.9%
2006: +6.0%
2007: +2.9%
2008: +4.9%
2009: +3.6%
2010: +3.3%

I understand you’ve decided that you don’t like rTS%, but the post you’re responding to was about rTS%, so in that context it really isn’t accurate to say SGA has “‘dropp[ed]' down to a level that is still superior to” Kobe. Kobe generally had a better playoff rTS% than the playoff rTS%’s for SGA that was listed in that post you responded to.

Would love to know where you're getting these made up numbers.

In 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, and 2004, Kobe shot: .502, .517, .511, .531, and .506.

League averages in the playoffs those years were: .508, .517, .514, .525, and .500.

It can't even be defensive adjustments. In 2006, Kobe shot 4.0% better than league average in the playoffs and you give him +6.0% even though the one team he faced (Phoenix) was below average in regular season defense, below average in regular season eFG%, and allowed teams to shoot above average TS% in the playoffs. It seems like you're just randomly making up numbers for Kobe to make him look good.

[One_and_Done]

He definitely would. He chose to take a bunch of low efficiency shots because he was fawned over for it back in the day and compared to MJ. Now that people actually pay attention to efficiency numbers and impact metrics and LeBron's the guy players model themselves after, he would have definitely changed his priorities. He would focus more on his passing (which was excellent when he was trying) and probably eliminate most of his bottom 5-10% shots.

The focus on efficiency shifted during Kobe's career, and he showed almost zero interest in changing how he played. Even in the early 00s Phil Jackson was going crazy over his refusal to play the way he wanted, and not much changed under future coaches. Kobe was all about Kobe, not playing the right way.

There was focus from a coaches' perspective, but Kobe never cared about that. I'm talking about the fan/media perspective. That's what Kobe cared about: adulation, not trying to optimize his game for the team. Nowadays, his efficiency would be discussed on the morning shows for whether he deserves 1st-team all-NBA or not. It would absolutely impact his shot selection.

Also, it's not true that Kobe never changed how he played either. When Pau Gasol got traded to the Lakers and Kobe had a chance to win rings without Shaq, all of a sudden, helping on defense and getting back in transition was cool after all. He still wasn't a great off-ball defender, but he was light years better from 2008-2010 than he'd been the previous 3 seasons. The difference in effort was remarkable.

Yeh, disagree. Talking heads still ignore efficiency mostly, in favour of 'silly narratives like 'killer instinct'. Heck, many ppl still think Demar is good. At any rate, we can't give Kobe an attitude he never had. Do you think in his last 2 seasons any of his fans cared that Kobe was killing, and I mean killing, the Lakers? Of course not, and neither did he. You're basically imagining Kobe if he'd been born in a different time with a different attitude, and I don't go in for hypothetical players like that.