Cowley: Bulls Zoned in on Demin at 12

[DuckIII]

i don't mean to belabor this point, i'm sorry if i've missed this in the discussion, and i want to emphasize this is a genuine question i'm curious to see the answers to: for the people who love demin, who are the guys in the NBA as you see the "model of success" for demin at the professional level, and what makes you optimistic he can get there?

giddey is cited a lot obviously, but i don't think demin has the same kind of handle or speed
i've seen kyle anderson a few times, but demin developing slomo's level of defensive ability and general craftiness is another pure projection that you don't really see at all in his college tape
the ringer lists shaun livingston as his main comp, but his peak was reliant on the development of a strong midrange game and demin hasn't shown any sign of that to date
they also have deni avdija on there, but i don't think demin is anywhere close to him as an athlete/driver/finisher (and to be fair, i think demin is notably better than him as a passer)

and the other thing that strikes me is...none of those guys are that exciting as nba players? like obviously, those guys are probably all better-than-expected outcomes for the #12 pick, but if you're telling me that kyle anderson is the most successful version of the general archetype of a lottery prospect, i'm not going "holy crap we gotta get that guy"

again, earnestly looking for insights from folks with different perspectives than me on this. i do want to be more open to demin as a prospect, and i generally don't like being overly dismissive of guys who haven't actually played a minute in the league

Mr. Sparkle has some good posts earlier in this thread that I think capture what people like about Demin, and I agree with a lot of it.

But for me the reasons are still a little different (in addition to what Sparkle wrote). I like Demin at 12, but there are several guys who could very well be there that I would take over Demin. My whole thing with Egor is that he has, in my opinion, by far the largest outlier skill in the draft. His passing/height combination is completely and ludicrously off the charts. You cannot learn to do the things he does with a basketball. It is what prodigies do, and we see players with his combination of size and passing creativity a couple of times a decade. Maybe less historically since until Magic there basically weren't any, and after Magic there weren't any either for many years. Its kind only been a thing for a little while.

Anyway, that matters to me. I believe we need to use late lottery picks to take the biggest swings we can possibly take, current roster be damned. That is the situation AK has placed us in due to his refusal to play the lottery game. If you can imagine an Egor Demin that can reliably shoot threes and middies - and to be clear I absolutely can imagine it given his mechanics and age - you can imagine an incredibly diverse, unique and valuable offensive player. And if you can get someone like that with the 12th pick, its an incredible outcome. I'll take the risk on that over ho-hum future role players like Asa Newell every time. Those guys are what free agency is for.

There is another reason I have Demin among my favorites at 12: Fun. I love to watch guys pass the ball. It is my favorite thing about watching basketball. The creativity, the instinctiveness, what it represents, I love it. To me nothing captures the spirit and poetry of basketball more than the pass. You give me Giddey, Demin, Matas, Ayo, Coby, etc., all flying up and down the court slinging the rock and playing at the pace all of them thrive in? That will be fun to watch.

How good will it be? I don't really know. I'll take the fun, and figure the rest out later. You also have to understand that I do not believe AK is even remotely competent. He can't build us anything and never will. He's a complete tool who has no idea what he's doing. He makes Vinny Del Negro look like Greg Popovich. He's clueless. But can he build something that's visually appealing while I wait around for him to get fired so we can actually do this the right way? Sure, he can do that.

[nomorezorro]

genuinely appreciate the replies to that

i guess i can conceive of an outcome where the shot develops, and maybe that plus the passing unlocks room for him to operate inside the arc (but even if not you can get something out of a big connector who’s a shooting threat). and then on the other end it’s not hard to imagine the size + effort producing a solid-to-plus defender

this will greatly help my coping in the event we do end up taking him

[HomoSapien]

i don't mean to belabor this point, i'm sorry if i've missed this in the discussion, and i want to emphasize this is a genuine question i'm curious to see the answers to: for the people who love demin, who are the guys in the NBA as you see the "model of success" for demin at the professional level, and what makes you optimistic he can get there?

giddey is cited a lot obviously, but i don't think demin has the same kind of handle or speed
i've seen kyle anderson a few times, but demin developing slomo's level of defensive ability and general craftiness is another pure projection that you don't really see at all in his college tape
the ringer lists shaun livingston as his main comp, but his peak was reliant on the development of a strong midrange game and demin hasn't shown any sign of that to date
they also have deni avdija on there, but i don't think demin is anywhere close to him as an athlete/driver/finisher (and to be fair, i think demin is notably better than him as a passer)

and the other thing that strikes me is...none of those guys are that exciting as nba players? like obviously, those guys are probably all better-than-expected outcomes for the #12 pick, but if you're telling me that kyle anderson is the most successful version of the general archetype of a lottery prospect, i'm not going "holy crap we gotta get that guy"

again, earnestly looking for insights from folks with different perspectives than me on this. i do want to be more open to demin as a prospect, and i generally don't like being overly dismissive of guys who haven't actually played a minute in the league

Mr. Sparkle has some good posts earlier in this thread that I think capture what people like about Demin, and I agree with a lot of it.

But for me the reasons are still a little different (in addition to what Sparkle wrote). I like Demin at 12, but there are several guys who could very well be there that I would take over Demin. My whole thing with Egor is that he has, in my opinion, by far the largest outlier skill in the draft. His passing/height combination is completely and ludicrously off the charts. You cannot learn to do the things he does with a basketball. It is what prodigies do, and we see players with his combination of size and passing creativity a couple of times a decade. Maybe less historically since until Magic there basically weren't any, and after Magic there weren't any either for many years. Its kind only been a thing for a little while.

Anyway, that matters to me. I believe we need to use late lottery picks to take the biggest swings we can possibly take, current roster be damned. That is the situation AK has placed us in due to his refusal to play the lottery game. If you can imagine an Egor Demin that can reliably shoot threes and middies - and to be clear I absolutely can imagine it given his mechanics and age - you can imagine an incredibly diverse, unique and valuable offensive player. And if you can get someone like that with the 12th pick, its an incredible outcome. I'll take the risk on that over ho-hum future role players like Asa Newell every time. Those guys are what free agency is for.

There is another reason I have Demin among my favorites at 12: Fun. I love to watch guys pass the ball. It is my favorite thing about watching basketball. The creativity, the instinctiveness, what it represents, I love it. To me nothing captures the spirit and poetry of basketball more than the pass. You give me Giddey, Demin, Matas, Ayo, Coby, etc., all flying up and down the court slinging the rock and playing at the pace all of them thrive in? That will be fun to watch.

How good will it be? I don't really know. I'll take the fun, and figure the rest out later. You also have to understand that I do not believe AK is even remotely competent. He can't build us anything and never will. He's a complete tool who has no idea what he's doing. He makes Vinny Del Negro look like Greg Popovich. He's clueless. But can he build something that's visually appealing while I wait around for him to get fired so we can actually do this the right way? Sure, he can do that.

This encompasses my feelings about Demin as well. I think when someone is the best at a category in an entire draft, they're automatically worth a convo. Demin is easily the best passer in the draft. Like you said, shooting one of his biggest weaknesses, but I actually think he has great form. I feel like that's a weakness he can overcome. The other one is defense. I'm less confident about that, but I also don't think he's as bad as others make him out to be. His length has shown to be disruptive.

We're going to have trouble out-talenting people, but having two elite tall passers could give us an edge over other teams --- we can play smarter, we can play bigger, and we can outrun teams. Nothing is guaranteed, but I see a Giddey/Demin/Matas core of being fun, lengthy, and skilled.

[DuckIII]

genuinely appreciate the replies to that

i guess i can conceive of an outcome where the shot develops, and maybe that plus the passing unlocks room for him to operate inside the arc (but even if not you can get something out of a big connector who’s a shooting threat). and then on the other end it’s not hard to imagine the size + effort producing a solid-to-plus defender

this will greatly help my coping in the event we do end up taking him

Bear in mind, I absolutely understand why people don’t want to draft Demin. As Doug said earlier in the thread, it’s hard to imagine a player who “fits” needs less than Demin. And I more or less agree with that.

So for anyone who is looking at that 12 spot as a way to fill roster needs for a more immediate impact on winning, I’d imagine Demin looking like an especially abysmal option. Compared to someone, for example, like CMB. Who I do actually have above Demin for several reasons. Or even Newell, who also makes more immediate sense on paper but who, unlike CMB, I have ranked significantly below Demin.

I get the skepticism for those reasons, and based on the odd data.

[Dan Z]

i don't mean to belabor this point, i'm sorry if i've missed this in the discussion, and i want to emphasize this is a genuine question i'm curious to see the answers to: for the people who love demin, who are the guys in the NBA as you see the "model of success" for demin at the professional level, and what makes you optimistic he can get there?

giddey is cited a lot obviously, but i don't think demin has the same kind of handle or speed
i've seen kyle anderson a few times, but demin developing slomo's level of defensive ability and general craftiness is another pure projection that you don't really see at all in his college tape
the ringer lists shaun livingston as his main comp, but his peak was reliant on the development of a strong midrange game and demin hasn't shown any sign of that to date
they also have deni avdija on there, but i don't think demin is anywhere close to him as an athlete/driver/finisher (and to be fair, i think demin is notably better than him as a passer)

and the other thing that strikes me is...none of those guys are that exciting as nba players? like obviously, those guys are probably all better-than-expected outcomes for the #12 pick, but if you're telling me that kyle anderson is the most successful version of the general archetype of a lottery prospect, i'm not going "holy crap we gotta get that guy"

again, earnestly looking for insights from folks with different perspectives than me on this. i do want to be more open to demin as a prospect, and i generally don't like being overly dismissive of guys who haven't actually played a minute in the league

Mr. Sparkle has some good posts earlier in this thread that I think capture what people like about Demin, and I agree with a lot of it.

But for me the reasons are still a little different (in addition to what Sparkle wrote). I like Demin at 12, but there are several guys who could very well be there that I would take over Demin. My whole thing with Egor is that he has, in my opinion, by far the largest outlier skill in the draft. His passing/height combination is completely and ludicrously off the charts. You cannot learn to do the things he does with a basketball. It is what prodigies do, and we see players with his combination of size and passing creativity a couple of times a decade. Maybe less historically since until Magic there basically weren't any, and after Magic there weren't any either for many years. Its kind only been a thing for a little while.

Anyway, that matters to me. I believe we need to use late lottery picks to take the biggest swings we can possibly take, current roster be damned. That is the situation AK has placed us in due to his refusal to play the lottery game. If you can imagine an Egor Demin that can reliably shoot threes and middies - and to be clear I absolutely can imagine it given his mechanics and age - you can imagine an incredibly diverse, unique and valuable offensive player. And if you can get someone like that with the 12th pick, its an incredible outcome. I'll take the risk on that over ho-hum future role players like Asa Newell every time. Those guys are what free agency is for.

There is another reason I have Demin among my favorites at 12: Fun. I love to watch guys pass the ball. It is my favorite thing about watching basketball. The creativity, the instinctiveness, what it represents, I love it. To me nothing captures the spirit and poetry of basketball more than the pass. You give me Giddey, Demin, Matas, Ayo, Coby, etc., all flying up and down the court slinging the rock and playing at the pace all of them thrive in? That will be fun to watch.

How good will it be? I don't really know. I'll take the fun, and figure the rest out later. You also have to understand that I do not believe AK is even remotely competent. He can't build us anything and never will. He's a complete tool who has no idea what he's doing. He makes Vinny Del Negro look like Greg Popovich. He's clueless. But can he build something that's visually appealing while I wait around for him to get fired so we can actually do this the right way? Sure, he can do that.

My hope is that AK lucks into something and the team starts being a contender again. The only issue with that is it also means AK will be here longer.

Sigh.

If KJ slips I think the Bulls could have a similar passing team that you've mentioned above, but I don't think he slips. I'd offer the Portland pick to move up for him, but I wouldn't offer much more.

[Chi town]

genuinely appreciate the replies to that

i guess i can conceive of an outcome where the shot develops, and maybe that plus the passing unlocks room for him to operate inside the arc (but even if not you can get something out of a big connector who’s a shooting threat). and then on the other end it’s not hard to imagine the size + effort producing a solid-to-plus defender

this will greatly help my coping in the event we do end up taking him

Bear in mind, I absolutely understand why people don’t want to draft Demin. As Doug said earlier in the thread, it’s hard to imagine a player who “fits” needs less than Demin. And I more or less agree with that.

So for anyone who is looking at that 12 spot as a way to fill roster needs for a more immediate impact on winning, I’d imagine Demin looking like an especially abysmal option. Compared to someone, for example, like CMB. Who I do actually have above Demin for several reasons. Or even Newell, who also makes more immediate sense on paper but who, unlike CMB, I have ranked significantly below Demin.

I get the skepticism for those reasons, and based on the odd data.

What’s your board at 12?

I’m KJ, Noa, Coward.

[DuckIII]

i don't mean to belabor this point, i'm sorry if i've missed this in the discussion, and i want to emphasize this is a genuine question i'm curious to see the answers to: for the people who love demin, who are the guys in the NBA as you see the "model of success" for demin at the professional level, and what makes you optimistic he can get there?

giddey is cited a lot obviously, but i don't think demin has the same kind of handle or speed
i've seen kyle anderson a few times, but demin developing slomo's level of defensive ability and general craftiness is another pure projection that you don't really see at all in his college tape
the ringer lists shaun livingston as his main comp, but his peak was reliant on the development of a strong midrange game and demin hasn't shown any sign of that to date
they also have deni avdija on there, but i don't think demin is anywhere close to him as an athlete/driver/finisher (and to be fair, i think demin is notably better than him as a passer)

and the other thing that strikes me is...none of those guys are that exciting as nba players? like obviously, those guys are probably all better-than-expected outcomes for the #12 pick, but if you're telling me that kyle anderson is the most successful version of the general archetype of a lottery prospect, i'm not going "holy crap we gotta get that guy"

again, earnestly looking for insights from folks with different perspectives than me on this. i do want to be more open to demin as a prospect, and i generally don't like being overly dismissive of guys who haven't actually played a minute in the league

Mr. Sparkle has some good posts earlier in this thread that I think capture what people like about Demin, and I agree with a lot of it.

But for me the reasons are still a little different (in addition to what Sparkle wrote). I like Demin at 12, but there are several guys who could very well be there that I would take over Demin. My whole thing with Egor is that he has, in my opinion, by far the largest outlier skill in the draft. His passing/height combination is completely and ludicrously off the charts. You cannot learn to do the things he does with a basketball. It is what prodigies do, and we see players with his combination of size and passing creativity a couple of times a decade. Maybe less historically since until Magic there basically weren't any, and after Magic there weren't any either for many years. Its kind only been a thing for a little while.

Anyway, that matters to me. I believe we need to use late lottery picks to take the biggest swings we can possibly take, current roster be damned. That is the situation AK has placed us in due to his refusal to play the lottery game. If you can imagine an Egor Demin that can reliably shoot threes and middies - and to be clear I absolutely can imagine it given his mechanics and age - you can imagine an incredibly diverse, unique and valuable offensive player. And if you can get someone like that with the 12th pick, its an incredible outcome. I'll take the risk on that over ho-hum future role players like Asa Newell every time. Those guys are what free agency is for.

There is another reason I have Demin among my favorites at 12: Fun. I love to watch guys pass the ball. It is my favorite thing about watching basketball. The creativity, the instinctiveness, what it represents, I love it. To me nothing captures the spirit and poetry of basketball more than the pass. You give me Giddey, Demin, Matas, Ayo, Coby, etc., all flying up and down the court slinging the rock and playing at the pace all of them thrive in? That will be fun to watch.

How good will it be? I don't really know. I'll take the fun, and figure the rest out later. You also have to understand that I do not believe AK is even remotely competent. He can't build us anything and never will. He's a complete tool who has no idea what he's doing. He makes Vinny Del Negro look like Greg Popovich. He's clueless. But can he build something that's visually appealing while I wait around for him to get fired so we can actually do this the right way? Sure, he can do that.

My hope is that AK lucks into something and the team starts being a contender again. The only issue with that is it also means AK will be here longer.

Sigh.

If KJ slips I think the Bulls could have a similar passing team that you've mentioned above, but I don't think he slips. I'd offer the Portland pick to move up for him, but I wouldn't offer much more.

To be clear, I have KJ well above Demin in my rankings. That is in part because KJ also has a unique combination of size and passing creativity. Though not on Demin’s level. But that is just that one part. KJ is superior in literally every other way.

I have him as a top 5 talent in this draft and would support moving up a little to get him. Much better and safer prospect than Demin, and “fits” better immediately with a ready-made NBA body and size to play and defend 3 positions on day 1.

[DuckIII]

genuinely appreciate the replies to that

i guess i can conceive of an outcome where the shot develops, and maybe that plus the passing unlocks room for him to operate inside the arc (but even if not you can get something out of a big connector who’s a shooting threat). and then on the other end it’s not hard to imagine the size + effort producing a solid-to-plus defender

this will greatly help my coping in the event we do end up taking him

Bear in mind, I absolutely understand why people don’t want to draft Demin. As Doug said earlier in the thread, it’s hard to imagine a player who “fits” needs less than Demin. And I more or less agree with that.

So for anyone who is looking at that 12 spot as a way to fill roster needs for a more immediate impact on winning, I’d imagine Demin looking like an especially abysmal option. Compared to someone, for example, like CMB. Who I do actually have above Demin for several reasons. Or even Newell, who also makes more immediate sense on paper but who, unlike CMB, I have ranked significantly below Demin.

I get the skepticism for those reasons, and based on the odd data.

What’s your board at 12?

I’m KJ, Noa, Coward.

KJ as a fantasy
Noa
CMB
Demin
Coward/Bryant (toss-up)

I feel like it’s almost certain that one of those six will be there and other than KJ, I have the others ranked pretty closely together and would “trust the process” approvingly with any of those outcomes.

Will be concerned: Queen

Hell no: Newell, Jase

[Chi town]

Bear in mind, I absolutely understand why people don’t want to draft Demin. As Doug said earlier in the thread, it’s hard to imagine a player who “fits” needs less than Demin. And I more or less agree with that.

So for anyone who is looking at that 12 spot as a way to fill roster needs for a more immediate impact on winning, I’d imagine Demin looking like an especially abysmal option. Compared to someone, for example, like CMB. Who I do actually have above Demin for several reasons. Or even Newell, who also makes more immediate sense on paper but who, unlike CMB, I have ranked significantly below Demin.

I get the skepticism for those reasons, and based on the odd data.

What’s your board at 12?

I’m KJ, Noa, Coward.

KJ as a fantasy
Noa
CMB
Demin
Coward/Bryant (toss-up)

I feel like it’s almost certain that one of those six will be there and other than KJ, I have the others ranked pretty closely together and would “trust the process” approvingly with any of those outcomes.

Will be concerned: Queen

Hell no: Newell, Jase

Fully agree on the concerned hell no’s.

Why CMB over Demin Coward? You think his D will be that good? See him playing the 5?

Like you’ve said Demin could be fun due to the wizardry passing even though least need. Hes not good on D but so much length on the court will help on D. I do think he could become a scary good movement shooter. At his size that would really play. Can also see him passively sitting in the corner like Pat trying to not make a mistake.

I think Coward is a dog.

I’m hearing more and more how Bryant is a tease. Great flashes but never materializes. I’d take Drake over him who is a dog on D.

[Dan Z]

Mr. Sparkle has some good posts earlier in this thread that I think capture what people like about Demin, and I agree with a lot of it.

But for me the reasons are still a little different (in addition to what Sparkle wrote). I like Demin at 12, but there are several guys who could very well be there that I would take over Demin. My whole thing with Egor is that he has, in my opinion, by far the largest outlier skill in the draft. His passing/height combination is completely and ludicrously off the charts. You cannot learn to do the things he does with a basketball. It is what prodigies do, and we see players with his combination of size and passing creativity a couple of times a decade. Maybe less historically since until Magic there basically weren't any, and after Magic there weren't any either for many years. Its kind only been a thing for a little while.

Anyway, that matters to me. I believe we need to use late lottery picks to take the biggest swings we can possibly take, current roster be damned. That is the situation AK has placed us in due to his refusal to play the lottery game. If you can imagine an Egor Demin that can reliably shoot threes and middies - and to be clear I absolutely can imagine it given his mechanics and age - you can imagine an incredibly diverse, unique and valuable offensive player. And if you can get someone like that with the 12th pick, its an incredible outcome. I'll take the risk on that over ho-hum future role players like Asa Newell every time. Those guys are what free agency is for.

There is another reason I have Demin among my favorites at 12: Fun. I love to watch guys pass the ball. It is my favorite thing about watching basketball. The creativity, the instinctiveness, what it represents, I love it. To me nothing captures the spirit and poetry of basketball more than the pass. You give me Giddey, Demin, Matas, Ayo, Coby, etc., all flying up and down the court slinging the rock and playing at the pace all of them thrive in? That will be fun to watch.

How good will it be? I don't really know. I'll take the fun, and figure the rest out later. You also have to understand that I do not believe AK is even remotely competent. He can't build us anything and never will. He's a complete tool who has no idea what he's doing. He makes Vinny Del Negro look like Greg Popovich. He's clueless. But can he build something that's visually appealing while I wait around for him to get fired so we can actually do this the right way? Sure, he can do that.

My hope is that AK lucks into something and the team starts being a contender again. The only issue with that is it also means AK will be here longer.

Sigh.

If KJ slips I think the Bulls could have a similar passing team that you've mentioned above, but I don't think he slips. I'd offer the Portland pick to move up for him, but I wouldn't offer much more.

To be clear, I have KJ well above Demin in my rankings. That is in part because KJ also has a unique combination of size and passing creativity. Though not on Demin’s level. But that is just that one part. KJ is superior in literally every other way.

I have him as a top 5 talent in this draft and would support moving up a little to get him. Much better and safer prospect than Demin, and “fits” better immediately with a ready-made NBA body and size to play and defend 3 positions on day 1.

I'm surprised where I see KJ listed in most mock drafts.

Tankathon at #5
NBAdraft.net #16
SI at #10
CBS Sports he's at #6 and #11 (two different mocks).
ESPN has him at #10

I think he makes sense for New Orleans (Murray is out due to injury), Houston (Reed had a bad rookie year and KJ can play either guard position), Portland (Scoot has improved, but hasn't been what they were hoping for when they drafted him). etc.

I'd consider him too if I'm Charlotte, Utah or Washington. Charlotte because I think they should trade Ball and move in a new direction. Washington/Utah because they could use a PG.

But I probably wouldn't take him over VJ or Tre.

[MGB8]

My hope is that AK lucks into something and the team starts being a contender again. The only issue with that is it also means AK will be here longer.

Sigh.

If KJ slips I think the Bulls could have a similar passing team that you've mentioned above, but I don't think he slips. I'd offer the Portland pick to move up for him, but I wouldn't offer much more.

To be clear, I have KJ well above Demin in my rankings. That is in part because KJ also has a unique combination of size and passing creativity. Though not on Demin’s level. But that is just that one part. KJ is superior in literally every other way.

I have him as a top 5 talent in this draft and would support moving up a little to get him. Much better and safer prospect than Demin, and “fits” better immediately with a ready-made NBA body and size to play and defend 3 positions on day 1.

I'm surprised where I see KJ listed in most mock drafts.

Tankathon at #5
NBAdraft.net #16
SI at #10
CBS Sports he's at #6 and #11 (two different mocks).
ESPN has him at #10

I think he makes sense for New Orleans (Murray is out due to injury), Houston (Reed had a bad rookie year and KJ can play either guard position), Portland (Scoot has improved, but hasn't been what they were hoping for when they drafted him). etc.

I'd consider him too if I'm Charlotte, Utah or Washington. Charlotte because I think they should trade Ball and move in a new direction. Washington/Utah because they could use a PG.

But I probably wouldn't take him over VJ or Tre.

I think anyone seeking to draft KJ as a pg will be disappointed. That may explain why some mocks have him low - I wouldn’t put him up super high if I’m looking primarily for a point. But as a SG with solid handle and passing chops to go with quick feet and good shooting form….

[Dan Z]

To be clear, I have KJ well above Demin in my rankings. That is in part because KJ also has a unique combination of size and passing creativity. Though not on Demin’s level. But that is just that one part. KJ is superior in literally every other way.

I have him as a top 5 talent in this draft and would support moving up a little to get him. Much better and safer prospect than Demin, and “fits” better immediately with a ready-made NBA body and size to play and defend 3 positions on day 1.

I'm surprised where I see KJ listed in most mock drafts.

Tankathon at #5
NBAdraft.net #16
SI at #10
CBS Sports he's at #6 and #11 (two different mocks).
ESPN has him at #10

I think he makes sense for New Orleans (Murray is out due to injury), Houston (Reed had a bad rookie year and KJ can play either guard position), Portland (Scoot has improved, but hasn't been what they were hoping for when they drafted him). etc.

I'd consider him too if I'm Charlotte, Utah or Washington. Charlotte because I think they should trade Ball and move in a new direction. Washington/Utah because they could use a PG.

But I probably wouldn't take him over VJ or Tre.

I think anyone seeking to draft KJ as a pg will be disappointed. That may explain why some mocks have him low - I wouldn’t put him up super high if I’m looking primarily for a point. But as a SG with solid handle and passing chops to go with quick feet and good shooting form….

I think his passing ability would help New Orleans, Houston and Portland. Toronto too, but off the bench.

However, if NBA teams are thinking that he's a SG more than a PG then I can see why he's not ranked higher.

Who do you think is the best point guard prospect in the draft (after Harper)?

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Let’s not forget Lonzo is still here too. Him Giddey and Denim ? the ball movement with those 3 would be sick

[DuckIII]

Let’s not forget Lonzo is still here too. Him Giddey and Denim ? the ball movement with those 3 would be sick

My bad, meant to include him. Yes, that is part of the potential fun. You’d have 3 of the tallest, best passers in the NBA on the same team.

[League Circles]

Let’s not forget Lonzo is still here too. Him Giddey and Denim ? the ball movement with those 3 would be sick

High potential for too many cooks in the kitchen IMO.

KJ is roughly at the end of my top 12, plus or minus a couple spots. Demin isn't in my top 15-20.

[MGB8]

I'm surprised where I see KJ listed in most mock drafts.

Tankathon at #5
NBAdraft.net #16
SI at #10
CBS Sports he's at #6 and #11 (two different mocks).
ESPN has him at #10

I think he makes sense for New Orleans (Murray is out due to injury), Houston (Reed had a bad rookie year and KJ can play either guard position), Portland (Scoot has improved, but hasn't been what they were hoping for when they drafted him). etc.

I'd consider him too if I'm Charlotte, Utah or Washington. Charlotte because I think they should trade Ball and move in a new direction. Washington/Utah because they could use a PG.

But I probably wouldn't take him over VJ or Tre.

I think anyone seeking to draft KJ as a pg will be disappointed. That may explain why some mocks have him low - I wouldn’t put him up super high if I’m looking primarily for a point. But as a SG with solid handle and passing chops to go with quick feet and good shooting form….

I think his passing ability would help New Orleans, Houston and Portland. Toronto too, but off the bench.

However, if NBA teams are thinking that he's a SG more than a PG then I can see why he's not ranked higher.

Who do you think is the best point guard prospect in the draft (after Harper)?

Great question. I haven’t really looked at point guards since I’m Bulls focused and between Giddey at the point forward and Coby as secondary ball handler and combo who can play some point, plus Ayo and Lonzo (and maybe Tre Jones), not a big priority for me.

That said, my impression has been that it is a weak PG draft (for an average draft at the top, but more deep than many in terms of potential upside picks and good NBA players who will get drafted later).

The Q gets into “what’s a good pg?” Two parts, right - a point and a guard. Guard for me (as has noted in other threads) is re footspeed / agility to put pressure at/from perimeter (on both ends). Challenge dribbles and handle challenges to it. Get around picks/screens and be able to use them. Often smaller is better (to a certain limit).

As for a good point, the purpose is to run the offense to get your team the best shot each possession. Most do this with a combo of ball handling and ability to get where they want on the court (including when tightly defended in the half) to create angles or draw attention.

We’ve moved into an era where “scoring points” dominate - a la Rose from before or Ja or Curry Luka (as a point wing) or Lebron (point forward) … where the creation of the best shot is primarily based on gravity: “hey, opposing team, unless you send lots of players my way, I’m just going to score on you myself at over 65% TS… but when you do send players, that will open up the angles and opportunities for others, and I’ll get them the ball where they can score at a 65%+ TS, too - so we’ll kill you that way, too”

Size can help create those angles and lanes (like Giddey), but you need enough ball handling to not turn it over (worst result of an offensive possession because leads to high percentage opponent shots). A solid 3 helps because forces opponent to def ed you outside, which can open up lanes for dribbling, which then can open up lanes for passing. But not 100% critical if good enough on ball and at getting where you want.

Anyway, draft is weak on points who are guards, IMO. Fears probably better as a PG than KJ (and KJ arguably a wing more than a guard, but the short area footspeed is good). Saraf may or may not be similar to KJ (and may have a slightly better first step, but slightly worse overall athleticism p). Not sure about Traore. Clayton probably underrated here. Demin may have the best vision and “point” feel, but def not a guard in the way I define guard (clearly a forward, not even really a wing).

It isn’t that you couldn’t have KJ play “pg” on the right team or in spurts (like Manu did, like SGA and Harden do all the time). But like SGA, for instance, he is more a 2 that can pass well - if playing him at point need several other passers to really maximize getting best shot for team - in OKC case primarily Jalen Williams. And it is unlikely (though not impossible) that KJ becomes an SGA level scorer. Coby (and Ayo) are similar in that sense.

[sco]

Anyone else think the leaked Demin interest is to get leverage on Giddey contract?

[MGB8]

Let’s not forget Lonzo is still here too. Him Giddey and Denim ? the ball movement with those 3 would be sick

High potential for too many cooks in the kitchen IMO.

KJ is roughly at the end of my top 12, plus or minus a couple spots. Demin isn't in my top 15-20.

I’m not super concerned about that with Lonzo, or for that matter KJ. KJ can play off-ball just as much as on. Ditto Lonzo, for that matter. Demin, OTOH…. Same issue as Giddey, only moreso.

[Chi town]

Anyone else think the leaked Demin interest is to get leverage on Giddey contract?

I’m hearing folks says he’s top 10. Not just Cowley. I def believe AK would pick him if there at 12. I’m hoping he’s not there.

I could see Blazers taking him at 11 too.

[Hangtime84]

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Expectations is low teens from BYU side. I don't think he drops past 14. I think two playmakers in the lineup AK wants. Ball and Giddy played extremely well together.