Round 3: New York Knicks vs. Indiana Pacers

[Grang33r]

I will start off by just saying i have full confidence in this team winning on Saturday on home court. Last season we thought the series was over when we lost game 5 121-91.

That said, i don't remember a time the starters looked this poor. 33% shooting from the starting 5. The final score wasn't a true showing of this game. This game felt like a 30+ point beat down. Knicks struggled from 3 and FT line that helped keep the score somewhat respectful as did Mathurin and Walker.

Nesmith 3 points in just 15 min
Nembhard 6 points
Turner 5 points

3 point shooting this series:

Turner 5/19
Toppin 1/12

They need to play better.

[Grang33r]

I hope Nesmith is okay, he didnt seem himself tonight. Subbed out after 3 minutes. Then missed several open jumpers.

His health ahead of game 6 will be something huge to watch.

[boomershadow]

I didnt think the Knicks were gonna just lay down.

[rmontro]

I didnt think the Knicks were gonna just lay down.

I don't think they will from here either. I expect the Pacers to win the series, but they will have to put in the work.

[JMaster5K]

My two favorite Pacer nuckleheads were Lance and Ron Artest. I admired them more for their basketball abilities even though they could be loose cannons. I think Benn has a lot of potential to be a scorer. There’s just that snarky mentality that he has that he wants to be the best, not back down, and a confidence or arrogance that causes him problems on the court.

The Pacers have worked extensively with him to become a more complete or versatile player. They’re trying to get him to play team ball in their system and it has caused him to develop slower than what he’s thought it would. He’s even said that he was used to being the star in college and prior to the Pacers and he was trying to adapt to become a team player.

I really like him, agreed with the FO making him our draft choice, and think he could be a 25 point or more scorer every night. I just think it’s going to be in another team’s system because he’s not built to be a great team player like Nesmith, Turner, Obi, TJ, and Siakam who sacrifice for the team betterment. Maybe someday he gets it but I think it’ll be too late to remain here.

I hope Benn blows up and starts balling out of this world in the games left this season and drives his value through the roof. I then vote to move him and maximize returns for him and keep Obi. Even if he helps lead us to the championship I still can’t see retaining him unless ownership decides to pay the tax to keep him and Obi.

Been holding off posting on Benn,... have to agree with everything you posted.

I have a LOT of respect for Benn & what he has done over the last 2 years. He came into the league having had all his previous teams built around him. He did not have a complete, NBA quality game. Yes, he could score, but not in anything but an ISO scheme, or specific situation.

Over the last 2 years, he has worked hard to develop those parts of his game that were lacking, but needed for him to be a full time NBA starter, primary player, potential All star. According to his teammates & coaches, he is very coachable, friendly, and has bought into the NBA being about team ball. As Scoot once said,... 'He is a bucket, and sometimes you just need a guy that go get you a bucket.' Those improvements & achievements aren't the things that are going to get you an article in SI,... but they are the things that are going to take you from a good player to a great player.

It's just that his strengths & the way he naturally sees the floor & game, don't instinctively fit with what the Pacers do? I mean,.. if you had told me in his rookie year,.. that he was going to win an important game for us because of his defense? that he would have an 8 assist, 0 turnover game - when we needed it because a primary playmaker was out? that he would be a double-digit rebounder when called upon? I wouldn't have believed any of that,... let alone all of it.

If you look at the guys drafted before Benn in 22,... Banchero - all ready an all star; Holmgren - likely to be an all star; Jabari Smith - very good, but not great, has regressed a bit, but doesn't seem to have the ceiling he did on draft night; Keegan Murray - good, but yet to make a real impact; Ivey - good at scoring, but yet to make a real impact; then Benn. Statistically, across the board,... Been is making an impact on winning a step below Banchero & Holmgren, but on par with or slightly better than Smith,... and IMO better than Murray or Ivey?

And,... he's done it on a team that has a substantially different style and strengths than his best fit.

I think it's time for Benn to be traded, not just because I believe his value is high (granted, I am higher on his current value than some on this page), and that I think we can get good current & future value, but also because I think Benn is ready to be a starter, on a team that fits his strengths, where he has an opportunity to become one of the faces of the franchise, and with his competitive nature a potential all star? I don't think he has that potential within the current pacers system?

This is a good draft,... but you get past the top 5 or 6,.... then are there any of the other potential draftees that has a higher floor,.. or a higher ceiling,... or the ability to make an immediate impact on winning like Benn? I don't see one,... but that could be just me? He is just 22 this year.

Yeah,... we need someone on our team that is a bucket,... yes. I think there are players out there that can fill that role, and be a better, more natural fit with the starting unit, within the context of this Pacers team?

I respect all the work he has put in & who he has become,.. and who he can be. He hasn't yet reached his ceiling. I want to see him do well and succeed in this league. I want the Pacers as a team to continue to improve, and have the cap room to resign Myles (LOL). I wouldn't want to see him traded just anywhere, but the Pacers FO have been really good about helping guys get into a position to succeed, even if it isn't with the Pacers.

Honestly,.. for all his cold streak,... I don't think the Pacers win 50 games this year,... or survive this series without him, but I really want to see him take the next step & see who he can be (watching this is going to be really fun!); and I want to see the Pacers grow what they have into something that can be maintained long term. The best opportunity for both team and player, IMO is more likely if Benn moves on (for value) to a team that better fits his game?

That doesn't begin to touch the financials,... with Benn becoming a UFA after next season & needing an extension?

On a side note: there was an article this week (have to look to find it) from one of the sportswriters saying they had spoken with Mr. Simon in passing, and that he had suggested that he was more than willing to go into the tax the keep this team together. (will have to look for the link)

[Wizop]

Nembhard is MIA.

[Dave_R]

Knicks fan coming in peace. I agree Nembhard is MIA but he's been asked to guard OG who's taller and has 50 pounds on him. If OG gets aggressive offensively, which he should, Nembhard will be expending all of his energy on defense. In game 5, the Knicks figured out how to slow the game down - going more consistently to OG and KAT. If they continue to do that, they'll win because it slows the game down and the Pacers really don't have a good half-court offense.

[Wizop]

Knicks fan coming in peace. I agree Nembhard is MIA but he's been asked to guard OG who's taller and has 50 pounds on him. If OG gets aggressive offensively, which he should, Nembhard will be expending all of his energy on defense. In game 5, the Knicks figured out how to slow the game down - going more consistently to OG and KAT. If they continue to do that, they'll win because it slows the game down and the Pacers really don't have a good half-court offense.

I'm more worried about our half court defense than offense but we certainly didn't score enough in game 5.

[Scoot McGroot]

NY started picking up Haliburton defensively at 50 feet last night and were just much more physical. Lots of pictures of Bridges just straight up hugging or holding Haliburton in place. It happens. And we’ll see what the adjustment is in game 6.

[Scoot McGroot]

Knicks fan coming in peace. I agree Nembhard is MIA but he's been asked to guard OG who's taller and has 50 pounds on him. If OG gets aggressive offensively, which he should, Nembhard will be expending all of his energy on defense. In game 5, the Knicks figured out how to slow the game down - going more consistently to OG and KAT. If they continue to do that, they'll win because it slows the game down and the Pacers really don't have a good half-court offense.

Not quite. Indy has been putting Nembhard on the “least threatening” offensive piece. He was on Hart a ton until he was benched. He’s also manned up on Mitch some. And now, OG, with the Hart benching. Mostly, it’s so that he can roam a bunch defensively and break up actions, switch out high, or even rim protect a bit.

[Dave_R]

@ScootMcGroot

With all due respect to Nembhard, I don't think there's a single player on the Knicks who would hold off driving because Nembhard is allegedly protecting the rim. Also, I think Thibs has finally figured out that if the Pacers are hiding Nembhard on a much bigger player (e.g., OG), he'll get posted up. Finally, in terms of players grabbing/playing physical: (1) the OVERTURNED call in game 1 in the Pacers' favor was baloney as ALL angles of the play shown OG getting his jersey grabbed and stretched during the "incidental" contact; and (2) Nesmith could (should?) be called for a foul every time he pressures Brunson bringing the ball up court. Hali is simply getting a little of the Pacers' medicine (with a lot less contact when he brings the ball up court).

[Wizop]

I'm not sure what we are doing defensively with Nembhard. I could probably learn a lot by watching Caitlin's latest podcast but I hate reliving losses and haven't watched a single video today. he usually guards the toughest guard which would be Brunson but maybe they are starting him elsewhere so he can switch onto Brunson at a screen. at the other end though he's not scoring his normal low double figures and that's a major problem.

[Grang33r]

Nembhard is MIA.

Hes been awful. Not scoring and getting scored on with ease when hes on the court.

He needs a huge bounce back game.

[JMaster5K]

@ScootMcGroot

With all due respect to Nembhard, I don't think there's a single player on the Knicks who would hold off driving because Nembhard is allegedly protecting the rim. Also, I think Thibs has finally figured out that if the Pacers are hiding Nembhard on a much bigger player (e.g., OG), he'll get posted up. Finally, in terms of players grabbing/playing physical: (1) the OVERTURNED call in game 1 in the Pacers' favor was baloney as ALL angles of the play shown OG getting his jersey grabbed and stretched during the "incidental" contact; and (2) Nesmith could (should?) be called for a foul every time he pressures Brunson bringing the ball up court. Hali is simply getting a little of the Pacers' medicine (with a lot less contact when he brings the ball up court).

Maybe I just have on 'rose colored glasses',... (the color 'rose',.. not Derrick Rose - sorry sad attempt at humor....)

But what I'm seeing is good, physical playoff basketball. For all that said, both teams are playing like they respect each other & are going to give their best to beat the other team,... in that environment stuff happens,... for and against both teams, just depends on what particular play you choose,...

Yeah,... game 5 went to the NYK. IMO, the series just started. That's the first game, I've seen so far this post-season where the Knicks really played Thibs style ball. Glad to see it,... glad to see any team do well, was just hoping I didn't see it while you were playing my Pacers! As Scoot said,... we'll see what adjustments both teams make from here? At this level, it's the chess match as well as the execution.

If the NYK do win this series,... I hope they take what they learned from playing us,... and use exactly that against the Thunder,... That would be their best bet to have a chance to win another Championship. If, as I pray & believe, the Pacers win this series,... the same thing holds true,... we would have to take the lessons we learned from playing against that 'Thibs style' game and use them against the Thunder, as things only get more physical from here. The team that learns how to dictate the style of the game usually wins.

(tip of the hat,... buy you a beer later,.... but believing that's gotta be at a Pacers celebration - finally!)

[Pacers Forever]

I'm not sure what we are doing defensively with Nembhard. I could probably learn a lot by watching Caitlin's latest podcast but I hate reliving losses and haven't watched a single video today. he usually guards the toughest guard which would be Brunson but maybe they are starting him elsewhere so he can switch onto Brunson at a screen. at the other end though he's not scoring his normal low double figures and that's a major problem.

I recall seeing somewhere that Brunson is most effective when guarded by Nembhard. I think that could be why they’ve been using Nesmith and Sheppard on Brunson as much as possible. I think this last game they were forced to not use Nesmith as much due to his ankle not being 100%. I’d like to see Mathurin with his quickness guard Brunson if only he could keep from getting too physical with him and not send him to the line.

[JMaster5K]

I'm not sure what we are doing defensively with Nembhard. I could probably learn a lot by watching Caitlin's latest podcast but I hate reliving losses and haven't watched a single video today. he usually guards the toughest guard which would be Brunson but maybe they are starting him elsewhere so he can switch onto Brunson at a screen. at the other end though he's not scoring his normal low double figures and that's a major problem.

I recall seeing somewhere that Brunson is most effective when guarded by Nembhard. I think that could be why they’ve been using Nesmith and Sheppard on Brunson as much as possible. I think this last game they were forced to not use Nesmith as much due to his ankle not being 100%. I’d like to see Mathurin with his quickness guard Brunson if only he could keep from getting too physical with him and not send him to the line.

You are spot on! the Nembhard/Brunson matchup analysis came from Sam Vecenie, on his pre-series podcast. He said that JB is Nembhard's worst matchup (from analytics and from tape) of any other player in the league, and suggested that we would see a lot of Nesmith on Brunson, with (as Scoot said) Nembhard likely guarding (only against the NYK's) where possible, a low usage offensive player to take advantage of his defensive range.

When his other podcaster suggested using Shep on Brunson,... Vecenie's reply was,.. uhhhhh,.. not so much,.. maybe on switches for a limited time,.... he might surprise me,... but I wouldn't want to scheme that as a first option. (or something to those effects) If Nesmith's ankle takes him out of guarding JB,... and we don't have a big true defensive wing that can be moved on ball to take advantage of size (like the NYK's sometimes do with OG.) I would like to see what Mathurin could do (if his focus is up for the defense?), or what Walker could do? Anything would be better than a repeat of game 5?... well, as a Pacers fan that is.

[JMaster5K]

Spike & Reggie,..

https://www.nba.com/watch/video/spike-lee-inside-the-nba-game-5-pregame-may-29

[Wizop]

NY started picking up Haliburton defensively at 50 feet last night and we’re just much more physical. Lots of pictures of Bridges just straight up hugging or holding Haliburton in place. It happens. And we’ll see what the adjustment is in game 6.

sounds like the kind of thing a coach would mention to the officials before the game starts - "watch for Bridges holding Haliburton."

[Scoot McGroot]

@ScootMcGroot

With all due respect to Nembhard, I don't think there's a single player on the Knicks who would hold off driving because Nembhard is allegedly protecting the rim. Also, I think Thibs has finally figured out that if the Pacers are hiding Nembhard on a much bigger player (e.g., OG), he'll get posted up. Finally, in terms of players grabbing/playing physical: (1) the OVERTURNED call in game 1 in the Pacers' favor was baloney as ALL angles of the play shown OG getting his jersey grabbed and stretched during the "incidental" contact; and (2) Nesmith could (should?) be called for a foul every time he pressures Brunson bringing the ball up court. Hali is simply getting a little of the Pacers' medicine (with a lot less contact when he brings the ball up court).

Hey, I’m not arguing that the Knicks are getting away with stuff. They just played more physical. That’s ok. Refs let it go, so it could go both ways. Don’t take it personal. Knicks won big in game 5. I’m just pointing out there’s a ton of very clear photos of Bridges literally hugging Haliburton. That’s all, bud. Similar goes both ways. Was just pointing out what the Knicks did differently in game 5 vs game the rest of the series.

Read on Twitter

?s=46

As for Nembhard, read up on some Caitlin Cooper writing and you’ll see that he’s been an extremely effective post and secondary rim protector. He’s insanely smart, and knows how to defend in the post. He may be a guard, but he plays a different game. Much like yall know with Josh Hart, size doesn’t necessarily mean anything or describe HOW guys play defensively. Nembhard is similar in that regard, but he would’ve made all Defensive team if he qualified in the games/minutes played category.


Also, the Knicks have been trying to post up Nembhard all series and it hasn’t gone well.

Read on Twitter

?s=46

[Dave_R]

To be clear, Bridges isn't holding Hali when Hali brings the ball up court - he's just dogging him. He is holding a bit on out of bounds plays (as are Pacers) - they could call a foul on every out of bounds play if they wanted - maybe it'd clean things up.

Physical play is one thing but holding/pushing goes too far.