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OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal

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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#341 » by Raps in 4 » Fri May 30, 2025 8:05 pm

YogurtProducer wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Clutch0z24 wrote:I really don't understand the arguments about Siakam in here or people saying "Look what Siakam is doing you all were wrong about him"...


You're doing it wrong. You have to pretend that Tyrese Haliburton doesn't play for the Pacers and that the offence actually runs through Siakam. Then all of sudden, this thread will make sense.

You might be right.

But where you are wrong is using Indiana as any sort of proof of anything for your preferred course of action. This is a team who has made the playoffs 11/15 years (losing round 1 5 straight times), has not picked higher than 10 in the draft once (Jarace Walker at 8), acquired arguably their top 3 players via trades, and flat out refused to rebuild in a way you would want to see.

So sure, Siakam might not be the #1 there. But the Pacers are still a lesson in team building that it does not necessarily require a tank, AND that you could have built a good team around Siakam as a top dog. 2020, and 2025, are proof of that.


Pritchard identified Hali as a prospect with superstar potential and traded his best player for him. It was a high risk, high reward move. Masai has never operated that way. Would Masai have traded a 26 year-old Siakam (a year after his first All-Star appearance) for a young, unproven Haliburton? Masai literally held onto Siakam and the rest of his core until the very end, and then traded them for fifty cents on the dollar, and in the case of FVV, gave him away for free.

Masai is as good a scout as anyone. If he can find a Hali or SGA via trade too, awesome. But first we need someone on the team to reach Sabonis' level. We need valuable assets to pull off trades like that, and we're quite lacking in that department right now. And we need Masai to become less risk averse. You can't always be trading for proven players only.
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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#342 » by YogurtProducer » Fri May 30, 2025 8:39 pm

Raps in 4 wrote:Pritchard identified Hali as a prospect with superstar potential and traded his best player for him. It was a high risk, high reward move. Masai has never operated that way.
Are you **** kidding me?

How did we get Kawhi?


I swear you guys are so far out of reality man. This is craazy.
What an absolute failure and disaster this franchise is, ran by one of the most incompetent front offices in the league.
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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#343 » by Raps in 4 » Fri May 30, 2025 8:51 pm

YogurtProducer wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:Pritchard identified Hali as a prospect with superstar potential and traded his best player for him. It was a high risk, high reward move. Masai has never operated that way.
Are you **** kidding me?

How did we get Kawhi?


I swear you guys are so far out of reality man. This is craazy.


Kawhi was a proven top-5 player when healthy. The Derozan-Lowry core had reached its potential already and it was clear they could not win a title. It was a relatively low risk move as all we gave up was a pick and a prospect, and a DeMar that we would have moved on from soon anyway. It would have set back our rebuild, but it wouldn't have sunk it completely.

Pritchard traded his 25 year-old 2x All-Star for an unproven 21 year-old.

Would Masai have traded Siakam for Hali? Siakam was a 1x All-Star and 1x All-NBA 26 year-old at the time. You already know the answer because that storyline has played out.

Masai is one of the most risk-averse executives in the league. We have 15 years of data to draw on. It's not always a bad thing, but it also means that trades like the Hali or SGA ones are unlikely with him at the helm.
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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#344 » by djsunyc » Fri May 30, 2025 9:12 pm

siakam was a key piece to a chip. no he wasnt getting traded in feb 2022.
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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#345 » by sidsid » Fri May 30, 2025 9:39 pm

The Kings with awful ownership is something you try to take advantage of every year.

Reminding me how I was desperate to get in on the rookie scale Haliburton giveaway with Fred and Gary in some way in a 3 way but the league has too many damn guards so there's no value there.

Masai likely also doesn't take a step back with vets in this situation anyway. Same way I don't see a BI package for PG and 3rd pick happening.
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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#346 » by canada_dry » Fri May 30, 2025 9:45 pm

Why has this thread become haliburton vs siakam? :)

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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#347 » by nikster » Fri May 30, 2025 10:23 pm

Mikistan wrote:
nikster wrote:
tecumseh18 wrote:
The odd thing was that in the 2021-22 season after the ASB, Raptors seemed better without Fred in the lineup - although admittedly he was playing hurt most of that season. The comeback against the Sixers in the playoffs was without Fred. We ultimately lost that series because Scottie was playing hurt (and has been limping ever since), no because of Fred's season-ending injury.

That's why I didn't want to overpay Fred to return, let alone vastly overpay him to return. Not sure what the team was thinking.

You said it yourself. Before the break he averaged 21/7 on 57TS% while playing good defense and made the all star break, and was behind only Pascal in net rating. That's what the FO saw in him. Then he was playing hurt the rest of the way.

They saw an even better version of the same player that the Rockets did, when he completely turned around their season and led the team on on/off

But the raptors were playing rosters that were missing key guys due to covid border and testing restrictions that year the FVV ratings during that must be taken with a grain

He was 2nd on the team in on/off the year after (behind only scottie) and the year before in Tampa (barely behind Siakam). And then he led Houston his first season. There is no reason to think it was an aberration when it was his best statistical season
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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#348 » by NinjaBro » Fri May 30, 2025 10:34 pm

canada_dry wrote:Why has this thread become haliburton vs siakam? :)

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All other talking points have been exhausted in this thread. Now we wait until a new poster comes along who hasn't read the thread and post "of course Siakam wasn't a number one option" so we can start this cycle all over again.
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Re: OT - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#349 » by bluerap23 » Fri May 30, 2025 10:43 pm

tsherkin wrote:
bluerap23 wrote:
Westside Gunn wrote:No apologies.

He shines in scenarios when he's the 3rd or 4th option.
As the #1 he choked. No denying it. Just look back at the tapes on youtube

Hope he wins the ship though


So who are the #2 and #3 options on the Pacers?


Haliburton is very clearly their focal offensive player. In the RS, Siakam took about 1.5 more FGA/g to score about 1.5 more PPG, which isn't that impressive when you consider Haliburton being both more efficient AND their primary playmaker. And, of course, that almost 60% of Siakam's 2pt buckets are assisted in this postseason (and obviously nearly 100% of his 3s).

Something to consider.


Hali is the #1. Westside is saying Pascal is #4. So I’m asking who he thinks #2 and #3 are
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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#350 » by Agimat » Fri May 30, 2025 10:57 pm

NinjaBro wrote:
canada_dry wrote:Why has this thread become haliburton vs siakam? :)

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All other talking points have been exhausted in this thread. Now we wait until a new poster comes along who hasn't read the thread and post "of course Siakam wasn't a number one option" so we can start this cycle all over again.

:lol: :lol:
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Re: OT - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#351 » by tsherkin » Fri May 30, 2025 11:22 pm

bluerap23 wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
bluerap23 wrote:
So who are the #2 and #3 options on the Pacers?


Haliburton is very clearly their focal offensive player. In the RS, Siakam took about 1.5 more FGA/g to score about 1.5 more PPG, which isn't that impressive when you consider Haliburton being both more efficient AND their primary playmaker. And, of course, that almost 60% of Siakam's 2pt buckets are assisted in this postseason (and obviously nearly 100% of his 3s).

Something to consider.


Hali is the #1. Westside is saying Pascal is #4. So I’m asking who he thinks #2 and #3 are


Very good.
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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#352 » by Raptaurus » Fri May 30, 2025 11:33 pm

Raps in 4 wrote:
YogurtProducer wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:Pritchard identified Hali as a prospect with superstar potential and traded his best player for him. It was a high risk, high reward move. Masai has never operated that way.
Are you **** kidding me?

How did we get Kawhi?


I swear you guys are so far out of reality man. This is craazy.


Kawhi was a proven top-5 player when healthy. The Derozan-Lowry core had reached its potential already and it was clear they could not win a title. It was a relatively low risk move as all we gave up was a pick and a prospect, and a DeMar that we would have moved on from soon anyway. It would have set back our rebuild, but it wouldn't have sunk it completely.

Pritchard traded his 25 year-old 2x All-Star for an unproven 21 year-old.

Would Masai have traded Siakam for Hali? Siakam was a 1x All-Star and 1x All-NBA 26 year-old at the time. You already know the answer because that storyline has played out.

Masai is one of the most risk-averse executives in the league. We have 15 years of data to draw on. It's not always a bad thing, but it also means that trades like the Hali or SGA ones are unlikely with him at the helm.


Agreed. Masai is quite conservative. A slow gradual tweak of the team based on performance is the approach he usually takes. There is also definitely a preference for known quality as opposed to trading his assets for draft picks or unproven rookies/prospects. He will not typically wheel and deal “his guys” unless his hand is really
forced and/or they have hit an unsurmountable wall.
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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#353 » by WetLikeWater » Sat May 31, 2025 3:30 am

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Re: OT - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#354 » by Wannabe MEP » Sat May 31, 2025 12:38 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Wannabe MEP wrote:I do think if you have an OG-Siakam-Turner frontcourt:
  1. *good* guards start to look *great*
  2. talent would want to join
I also think quality guards are easier to come by because there are thousands of skilled athletic 6-3 players for every one 6-10 guy.


Nah, I don't think any of that is true, to be honest. If the number of available guards of value was meaningful, we'd have one already. But we need a legit lead perimeter player, and those do not grow on trees. And he doesn't need to be 6'3, we just need someone who can create rim pressure with high-frequency drives to the basket, coupled to quality playmaking and competent shooting. That isn't a trivial ask.

And no one wanting to join us is going to matter. We're not going to sign that kind of player for a vet min or some other exception or whatever.

I'm gonna give a long answer to this one. Apologies. I was turning this one over a bit.

Post Kawhi, I believed strongly in Siakam + OG. I've had mixed feeling about basically everybody else, including Scottie. But I believed that there was a way to build a contender around those two, but of course I always understood that it would be very difficult to do. You'd need good scoring/initiating from the guard(s), and a solid stretch 5.

Exhibit A: Pacers

A few years ago, the Pacers had Sabonis, Turner, and not much else of note. They gave those two a shot for a few years, but it became clear that they weren't an ideal fit beside each other. The team was mid at best.

So tear it down, sell both, become terrible, and start over through the draft, right???

No. They sold Sabonis and continued to build around Turner. They didn't have a "superstar", but they had one really solid piece who could contribute significantly on both defense and offense. And even though he wasn't super young any more -- and misses games every year with injuries -- they kept trying to add quality pieces around him.

They were willing to give up assets to build something. Got Haliburton and Siakam through trades, dealing Sabonis and multiple draft picks, and it's been a resounding success. In my opinion, this is worth it even if they go no further -- they put themselves in position to have a chance, and so far have made two good playoff runs.

Exhibit B: Celtics

Had Tatum and Brown and a good team. But knew they needed specific pieces to win a championship, and were willing to part with multiple draft picks and other core-ish players to build a better team around those two.

  1. Wanted a savvy guard who could defend and shoot threes. Found two: Jrue Holiday and Derrick White. Had to pay for them.
  2. Wanted a savvy stretch-5 who could defend. Found two: Al Horford and Kristaps Porzingis. Had to pay for them.
Got a title. Tatum injury is a massive blow, but they certainly could be dangerous again in the future.


**********


To build around OG + Siakam we needed a solid stretch-5 and more dynamic offensive spark from the guards than we had for the last few years.

I think Scottie + a couple draft picks could have netted Myles Turner and a key guard. Essentially what Indiana did: they got Siakam and Hali. We could have gotten Turner and literally Hali, or another dynamic guard, instead.

Since Kawhi left, all of the following guards have 1) gotten either all-NBA or all-star selections, and 2) have switched teams -- mostly by trade:

Hali
SGA
Mitchell
Brunson
Harden
Luka
Butler
Fox
Lillard
CP3
Beal
Kyrie
Westbrook
Simmons
Wiggins
LaVine
Conley
Kemba
DeRozan
Jrue
Dejounte

^ Some of these definitely wouldn't have been possible or made sense for the Raptors...but none of them?? And this leaves out any not-quite-all-star that's very good at basketball that may also have switched teams -- Derrick White comes to mind. And then of course there was always the option of...keeping Norm.
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Re: OT - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#355 » by sprewellchokes » Sat May 31, 2025 2:41 pm

Nebuchadnezzar wrote:
mdenny wrote:Scotty should apologize to Pascal for screaming in his face after a meaningless regular season win.

First time I've ever seen Pascal storm out the building without shaking hands.


Makes you wonder who the real problem was.


Yea Barnes has some maturing to do but the FO chose him over Siakam and gave him the bag. It’s like the younger hotter new wife flexing on the ex. It is what it is.
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Re: OT - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#356 » by tsherkin » Sat May 31, 2025 2:41 pm

Wannabe MEP wrote:I'm gonna give a long answer to this one. Apologies. I was turning this one over a bit.

Post Kawhi, I believed strongly in Siakam + OG. I've had mixed feeling about basically everybody else, including Scottie. But I believed that there was a way to build a contender around those two, but of course I always understood that it would be very difficult to do. You'd need good scoring/initiating from the guard(s), and a solid stretch 5.


Honestly, I think you'd need a perennial-star guard, who would ultimately be better than either. But they are both excellent players, and are proving right this very season that if they can be healthy and they can play behind someone who sets the table, they can fill their role very well. Siakam, for example, isn't going to light the world on fire creating shots for others, but he's a nice post player who runs well in transition and moves well without the ball. He was 7th in post-ups per game this year, and posted 1.08 PPP on those plays, and he works off Haliburton very, very well. In short, he's a solid mid-volume scorer who looks great next to one of the best playmakers in the league. And OG, of course, is a good spot-up 3pt shooter, he's always been a good C+S guy, and an excellent defender.

No. They sold Sabonis and continued to build around Turner. They didn't have a "superstar", but they had one really solid piece who could contribute significantly on both defense and offense. And even though he wasn't super young any more -- and misses games every year with injuries -- they kept trying to add quality pieces around him.

They were willing to give up assets to build something. Got Haliburton and Siakam through trades, dealing Sabonis and multiple draft picks, and it's been a resounding success. In my opinion, this is worth it even if they go no further -- they put themselves in position to have a chance, and so far have made two good playoff runs.


Yup.

They took advantage of Sacramento and Toronto being stupid, and it worked out excellently for them. An opportunistic trade, same flavor as our grab of Kawhi, really.

Exhibit B: Celtics

Had Tatum and Brown and a good team. But knew they needed specific pieces to win a championship, and were willing to part with multiple draft picks and other core-ish players to build a better team around those two.

  1. Wanted a savvy guard who could defend and shoot threes. Found two: Jrue Holiday and Derrick White. Had to pay for them.
  2. Wanted a savvy stretch-5 who could defend. Found two: Al Horford and Kristaps Porzingis. Had to pay for them.
Got a title. Tatum injury is a massive blow, but they certainly could be dangerous again in the future.


They stacked talent. Tatum is really good. Brown's pretty good. They got huge mileage out of Horford. Etc, etc, etc. Smart moves. Of course, they've mostly been in the ECFs since 2017. They had a huge peak season from Isaiah Thomas, they had Kyrie Irving, and they drafted Tatum 3rd overall... after making the ECFs.

So I don't know that they are a great model, because they are SPOILED for riches and got an All-NBA 1st Team player following a season in which they made the Conference Finals.

I think Scottie + a couple draft picks could have netted Myles Turner and a key guard. Essentially what Indiana did: they got Siakam and Hali. We could have gotten Turner and literally Hali, or another dynamic guard, instead.


Oh you mean like at the time of the draft in 2021, or during Scottie's rookie year? Yeah, maybe. Keeping Norm could have been a thing as well, for sure, but we were more in need of someone to hand the keys. Haliburton would have been an astonishingly awesome pick.
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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#357 » by Tripod » Sat May 31, 2025 4:00 pm

We had Freddy All Star. We didn't need a PG.

We absolutely needed a C....any starting level C. That was the big failure....2.5 years without a starting level C.
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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#358 » by tsherkin » Sat May 31, 2025 5:48 pm

Tripod wrote:We had Freddy All Star. We didn't need a PG.


Yes, we did. Fred has never been particularly good at driving, and in his AS year, he was HORRENDOUS at finishing on his drives. He was flatly never good enough to be the type of player we needed to drive a Pascal/OG-centric offense to significant success in the postseason.

What we needed was a lead guard who could drive the offense, and we needed one who was several levels better than VanVleet has ever been.

Could we have continued to be a decent team with that trio? Sure. We were a 48-win team in 2022, after all, with a very mid offense. We were the 3rd-worst team in the league inside the arc, and VanVleet was a significant part of that because he blows donkeys inside the arc. We were sufficiently bad at initiating things that his play that year (which was a top-3 season for him individually) was helpful to us, but he wasn't any kind of legit focal piece. He had the hip and the knee and what-not going on in the playoffs, so I don't want to rag on that part too much, but he is generally a crap scorer, and that's a problem.

We needed a REAL focal guard. Haliburton, as it turns out, was that sort of player. Hell, even back then, before anyone had any real inkling that he was gonna be this guy, he was a 40% 3pt shooting 13/8 player. He was already well on his way to being better than Fred, and of course he broke out immediately following the trade. The guy that he has been since he hit Indiana is well better than anything we've ever seen out of FVV.
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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#359 » by ATLTimekeeper » Sat May 31, 2025 8:44 pm

Spates wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Spates wrote:If you say so...


I don't choose who makes the all-star team.

Haliburton was voted most overrated, maybe we need to revisit simple usage of accolades to make points.

And you know what? You're right, he was just fine that season. That captures his impact pretty well. If fine is how you choose to describe his play why are you bothering to reply to me in a thread celebrating his current level of production?

Keep in mind the all-around putrid play-in performance.
Numerous times you attempt to refute me pointing to Pascal's personal accolades while ignoring the team's complete mediocrity. Great lead playmakers help teams punch above their weight class. Pascal was never great in that role, he was fine, adequate...

He's great doing what he's doing with the Pacers. It's the version of Pascal I've been vying for. Stats back up his superior impact.

I don't understand your angle.


32/9/6 on 60%TS and a +6 in a game they lost by 4. Truly an example of an all-round putrid performance.
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Re: OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal 

Post#360 » by Tripod » Sat May 31, 2025 8:59 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Spates wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:
I don't choose who makes the all-star team.

Haliburton was voted most overrated, maybe we need to revisit simple usage of accolades to make points.

And you know what? You're right, he was just fine that season. That captures his impact pretty well. If fine is how you choose to describe his play why are you bothering to reply to me in a thread celebrating his current level of production?

Keep in mind the all-around putrid play-in performance.
Numerous times you attempt to refute me pointing to Pascal's personal accolades while ignoring the team's complete mediocrity. Great lead playmakers help teams punch above their weight class. Pascal was never great in that role, he was fine, adequate...

He's great doing what he's doing with the Pacers. It's the version of Pascal I've been vying for. Stats back up his superior impact.

I don't understand your angle.


32/9/6 on 60%TS and a +6 in a game they lost by 4. Truly an example of an all-round putrid performance.

Certainly wasn't putrid.

But his 5-11 from the FT line was.

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