How is this not a super Mid plan? what's the pitch on our direction

[Randle McMurphy]

Masai hasn’t had a real direction for years now which is another reason it’s pretty bizarre he still has as many defenders as he does.

[Pointgod]

I also think people act like the likelihood of getting a Wemby or LeBron or even Flagg in the draft is high.

That as well.

The #1 pick has come through with a player of that quality only so many times in the past quarter century, less frequently than in the past, and even the rest of the draft has become a bit more of a crapshoot than it used to be... and even then, it was a dicey proposition.

The data is pretty conclusive that the #1 pick has the highest probability to become an all-star. It’s not really that much of a crap shoot. In fact the impact of a player goes down the lower they’re drafted based on two analysis that I’ve seen.

https://quantimschmitz.com/2023/04/02/how-valuable-is-each-nba-draft-pick/

https://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

We can even look at the last 10 drafts that would have finished their rookie contracts. From 2021-2012 there were 7 all-stars selected with the #1 pick. That’s a pretty high hit rate. A decent drafting front office could tank for 3 years and come out the draft with allstar caliber players and even some core pieces if they have multiple picks in the draft.

[ConSarnit]

Lmao, that other guy doesn't know a single player on our team. He has not watched one Raptors game since 2019 I bet.

Lowe thinking Charlotte will finish ahead of us, Chicago, and Philly shows a deep lack of basketball knowledge as well. He's always been a bit of a hack, so this is nothing surprising.

I don't think our team is in a good situation at all, for what it's worth. But those two are completely clueless. NBA talking heads make RealGM posters look like basketball intellectuals.

This is the problem with the board. Guess what? We are in the same tier as the Bulls and Hornets. We haven’t won a single playoff game since 2022. Until we prove we are competent again this is why we are getting lumped in with those teams. If we were the Seattle Raptors no one on this board would be high on this team at all.

The Raptors sat Scottie, IQ, RJ, Yak, and BI for a combined 135 games this season (Scottie was the only player who played 65 games from that group), and still finished 11 games ahead of Charlotte.

The Raptors are a treadmill team, but the Raptors are also a much better team than Charlotte. It doesn't take a genius to see that.

The Hornets projected starting lineup missed well over 100+ games this season. Their 2 best players, Miller and Ball, played 27 and 44 games respectively. CHA was hit with the injury bug worse than we were. Are we better than them, yes. Is that some crowning achievement? Absolutely not considering they’ve been one of the worst run franchises for over a decade.

And if you had actually listened to that Lowe podcast they were not discussing who was better, they were discussing who has the better future. And they still picked the Raptors.

[Los_29]

Funny, they were saying the same thing about Indiana and New York. Look at them now.

New York finished 11th in the East the season before they added Jalen Brunson for free and finished 6th the following season.

Pacers finished 11th in the East their first full season with Haliburton, but he only played 56 games. The next season Haliburton played 69 games and got Pascal for free for 44 games and finished 6th in the East despite losing Buddy Hield from the previous season.

Right now you can’t compare us to the Pacers or Knicks because we’re not adding a player that’s as good as Jalen Brunson or Tyrese Haliburton to our existing team that finished 11th in the East. Brandon Ingram will make us better but he’s not on the level of either of these guys so the comparison is not one for one.

Pacers got Pascal for three FRPs. Funnily enough we have all of our picks now too.

What place were we in? We are adding BI for free and the 9th overall pick. We are headed in the right direction and have assets to trade.

There is nothing wrong with building this way. All of the teams that gutted their roster have done nothing while treadmill teams like the Pacers and Knicks chose to retool and battled it out in the ECF.

Rockets, Magic, Hornets, Jazz are an example of what happens when you gut your team and don’t end up with a superstar in the draft.

OKC is only where they are because of Kawhi. Take away Kawhi’s decision and the players OKC drafted in the lottery are Chet, Giddey and Dieng.

Spurs are in amazing shape but they treadmilled for 4 years and then got the right bounce in the lottery. Any other result has them with Scoot or Miller or Amen. And all of a sudden they are a perennial lottery team too.

Can’t rely on luck.

[Scase]

Lmao, that other guy doesn't know a single player on our team. He has not watched one Raptors game since 2019 I bet.

Lowe thinking Charlotte will finish ahead of us, Chicago, and Philly shows a deep lack of basketball knowledge as well. He's always been a bit of a hack, so this is nothing surprising.

I don't think our team is in a good situation at all, for what it's worth. But those two are completely clueless. NBA talking heads make RealGM posters look like basketball intellectuals.

This is the problem with the board. Guess what? We are in the same tier as the Bulls and Hornets. We haven’t won a single playoff game since 2022. Until we prove we are competent again this is why we are getting lumped in with those teams. If we were the Seattle Raptors no one on this board would be high on this team at all.

The Raptors sat Scottie, IQ, RJ, Yak, and BI for a combined 135 games this season (Scottie was the only player who played 65 games from that group), and still finished 11 games ahead of Charlotte.

The Raptors are a treadmill team, but the Raptors are also a much better team than Charlotte. It doesn't take a genius to see that.

Funny, I recall people saying we were better than DET last off season. Unless we're going to use injuries for a second year in a row of excuses? We've done nothing to elevate us above any team not named WAS, and until we do, it's a reasonable assessment.

FWIW, I think we will finish above CHA, but to suggest it's a guarantee would be foolish.

[Raps in 4]

This is the problem with the board. Guess what? We are in the same tier as the Bulls and Hornets. We haven’t won a single playoff game since 2022. Until we prove we are competent again this is why we are getting lumped in with those teams. If we were the Seattle Raptors no one on this board would be high on this team at all.

The Raptors sat Scottie, IQ, RJ, Yak, and BI for a combined 135 games this season (Scottie was the only player who played 65 games from that group), and still finished 11 games ahead of Charlotte.

The Raptors are a treadmill team, but the Raptors are also a much better team than Charlotte. It doesn't take a genius to see that.

Funny, I recall people saying we were better than DET last off season. Unless we're going to use injuries for a second year in a row of excuses? We've done nothing to elevate us above any team not named WAS, and until we do, it's a reasonable assessment.

FWIW, I think we will finish above CHA, but to suggest it's a guarantee would be foolish.

If both teams are relatively healthy, there is a 0% chance the Raptors don't finish the season with at least 15 more wins. If the Raptors are as bad as you claim, we'd be competing for another lottery pick next year (which is what Charlotte will be doing). It's probably what we should be doing. But you know as well as I do that we won't be doing that.

[_MidNight_]

Why is this current roster viewed as the final product?

Good question. This entire thing s is still under construction and people are griping like the process is over.

[Raps in 4]

Why is this current roster viewed as the final product?

Good question. This entire thing s is still under construction and people are griping like the process is over.

Because the vision isn't clear.

[Appostis]

This is the problem with the board. Guess what? We are in the same tier as the Bulls and Hornets. We haven’t won a single playoff game since 2022. Until we prove we are competent again this is why we are getting lumped in with those teams. If we were the Seattle Raptors no one on this board would be high on this team at all.

The Raptors sat Scottie, IQ, RJ, Yak, and BI for a combined 135 games this season (Scottie was the only player who played 65 games from that group), and still finished 11 games ahead of Charlotte.

The Raptors are a treadmill team, but the Raptors are also a much better team than Charlotte. It doesn't take a genius to see that.

Funny, I recall people saying we were better than DET last off season. Unless we're going to use injuries for a second year in a row of excuses? We've done nothing to elevate us above any team not named WAS, and until we do, it's a reasonable assessment.

FWIW, I think we will finish above CHA, but to suggest it's a guarantee would be foolish.

Can you say for sure we weren't last year without the injuries?

[canada_dry]

This is the problem with the board. Guess what? We are in the same tier as the Bulls and Hornets. We haven’t won a single playoff game since 2022. Until we prove we are competent again this is why we are getting lumped in with those teams. If we were the Seattle Raptors no one on this board would be high on this team at all.

The Raptors sat Scottie, IQ, RJ, Yak, and BI for a combined 135 games this season (Scottie was the only player who played 65 games from that group), and still finished 11 games ahead of Charlotte.

The Raptors are a treadmill team, but the Raptors are also a much better team than Charlotte. It doesn't take a genius to see that.

Funny, I recall people saying we were better than DET last off season. Unless we're going to use injuries for a second year in a row of excuses? We've done nothing to elevate us above any team not named WAS, and until we do, it's a reasonable assessment.

FWIW, I think we will finish above CHA, but to suggest it's a guarantee would be foolish.

Oh my Lord lol

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Los_29]

The Raptors sat Scottie, IQ, RJ, Yak, and BI for a combined 135 games this season (Scottie was the only player who played 65 games from that group), and still finished 11 games ahead of Charlotte.

The Raptors are a treadmill team, but the Raptors are also a much better team than Charlotte. It doesn't take a genius to see that.

Funny, I recall people saying we were better than DET last off season. Unless we're going to use injuries for a second year in a row of excuses? We've done nothing to elevate us above any team not named WAS, and until we do, it's a reasonable assessment.

FWIW, I think we will finish above CHA, but to suggest it's a guarantee would be foolish.

Oh my Lord lol

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Could age as bad as his “Pascal is the worst shooter of all-time” take from last year.

Looking forward to it.

[Duffman100]

We won 11 games more than Cha last season while trying to lose lol.

But I'm not constantly negative. Nooooo

[nikster]

Why is this current roster viewed as the final product?

Good question. This entire thing s is still under construction and people are griping like the process is over.

Because the vision isn't clear.

The vision is clear, some just don't like it

[tsherkin]

The data is pretty conclusive that the #1 pick has the highest probability to become an all-star. It’s not really that much of a crap shoot.

Just because it is the highest probability doesn't mean that it comes through with a great chance. It's been pretty rough lately, and the draft is a lot less of a sure thing in the one-and-done age, was my point.

Meantime, it's worth remembering what we're talking about here. We're not talking about Jamaal Magloire, we're talking about franchise players.

[Duffman100]

The data is pretty conclusive that the #1 pick has the highest probability to become an all-star. It’s not really that much of a crap shoot.

Just because it is the highest probability doesn't mean that it comes through with a great chance. It's been pretty rough lately, and the draft is a lot less of a sure thing in the one-and-done age, was my point.

Meantime, it's worth remembering what we're talking about here. We're not talking about Jamaal Magloire, we're talking about franchise players.

There are two factors at play.

The lottery
The chance of landing a franchise guy

Both of those obviously reduce the % of having draft success.

Obviously it's a route to go. But when people are talking about "miracles" that lead for team to be contenders, im guess that % of that route is just as equally a miracle.

[ash_k]

We had a deal in place to get us Myles Turner which would have given us FVV|OG|Barnes|Pascal|Turner then the Pacers pulled it and pivoted for Sabonis to Hali.
The NBA world would be in a different world right now, had the Pacers not pulled it.
No Doubt the Pacers management folks are looking like (lucky) geniuses today.

Looking at the Pacers(and even OG), my confidence in Masai and Bobby has kept growing in this playoffs, their vision in players cannot be doubted. They are learning about (vision of) coaching even though the original of Udoka was the right one. I hope Darko comes through in year3 (but we will be okay now with so many good alternatives currently unemployed)

I cant wait to see BI in a Raptor uniform such a great talent.

Side note: my belief in OG|Pascal|FVV was so strong, I would have traded the 4th pick(Barnes) for a "KD"...but not with 4 more FRPs on top of it!

[Pointgod]

The data is pretty conclusive that the #1 pick has the highest probability to become an all-star. It’s not really that much of a crap shoot.

Just because it is the highest probability doesn't mean that it comes through with a great chance. It's been pretty rough lately, and the draft is a lot less of a sure thing in the one-and-done age, was my point.

Meantime, it's worth remembering what we're talking about here. We're not talking about Jamaal Magloire, we're talking about franchise players.

The data is pretty conclusive that the number one pick has the highest chance of becoming an allstar and the higher you are in the draft, the more likely the player you selected is better than the ones selected lower in the draft.

You can go through the past drafts and see franchise and all NBA players are getting drafted at #1 with a decent hit rate, not Jamal Magloires. Getting the all-star talent is the hardest thing to do in the NBA and doing it through the draft is an easier path than trying to trade for one because of what you have to give up in a trade can hurt you in the short term or long term on top of salary cap implications, age, health and development.

[Rapsalot]

No disrespect to OP but, if you start post with bold letters that are incorrect Pascal for BI then it is hard to take you seriously the rest of the way.
After much of the movement Pascal = BI + Ochai A + J’KW so until I see 2 more years of this I can’t tell. PS is likely the best most healthy player and his contract is bad and he did not earn his last contract. For those who say look he is ECF MVP. Great when he had the chance with us he was in his basement for months and then was 3rd most impactful player on our team when he had a chance to “be the man” and KLaw was gone.


This team is in growth mode not done mode. We want to get to playoffs next year for experience then build. For me only Jak and maybe BI are “finished players” in the rotation next year. I even believe BI if goes back to 5-7 3s a game as he has in past can grow.
Look at progress RJB and OA made this year? Will that increase continue? Maybe not but J’KW, GD, JS, JMo and Battle can all clearly make improvements.

[ConSarnit]

We haven’t made the playoffs in 3 seasons and the guys that led us to those playoffs are no longer here.

We haven’t been that far off from the dregs of the league when you view it from an outside perspective.

Yeah. Heath and tanking. The minute we stop tanking, things are going to materially change. And that's even without factoring Ingram into the equation. We were quite bad this season, but again, contextually? Expectation should be notable improvement from anyone sane.

If we’re not developing our own guys what is our path? We don’t have the assets to compete on the trade market otherwise. If we’re not closing that gap we’re not getting star and if we don’t get a star we’re milling around play-in territory for the foreseeable future.

We will see as we move forward, won't we? We need to establish what we have before anything else. Where we stand with Ingram, with health, etc.

What do you mean by success potential? This is a 45 win team. If we don’t hit with our young guys (either as players we keep or trade) we’re not going anywhere. If you think the young guys have questionable ceilings then what do our established guys have? We have 2 low-end all-stars and that’s it.

I am well aware of what we have. My point was maybe that we move them instead of developing them. Or some of them. Who knows? We need to see what we have first. Anything else is premature.

What are our paths here? We’ve clearly forgone the high draft pick route. We’ve foregone the stockpiling picks route. We don’t have a #1 in waiting. The keys guys are currently holding “meh” value.

Are you happy to be sitting in that 45 win zone? Just trying to gauge what you view success as (I have no issue with someone wanting a low level playoff team it’s just not the path I would choose).

Yes, a low-level playoff team would count to me as success for now. It isn't reasonable to expect to bounce into title contention any time soon, it isn't a sane notion.

I do think we are in a place where we have somewhat of a logjam as far as prospects go. We have a plethora of shooting guards and no big man depth. I would not be opposed to some sort of clean up trade to better balance the roster or acquire us surplus draft assets. If we could round out a roster of 8/9 rotation worthy players + excess draft capital that could put us in a solid spot as far as win-now and being ready to strike in a trade. At some point we’ll see diminishing returns on our young guards if we can’t carve out enough playing time for all of them (which they all deserve in some sense).

If we were slightly better prepared to pivot in one specific direction I would have more confidence in the team. Right now there is no clear path as far as I can see. None of our current guys have incredibly high ceilings. We aren’t going to be drafting high and we don’t necessarily have the assets for a big move (at least relative to some other teams). Create a path to even just one of those things and I’ll believe in the team’s future a lot more.

[ConSarnit]

The Raptors sat Scottie, IQ, RJ, Yak, and BI for a combined 135 games this season (Scottie was the only player who played 65 games from that group), and still finished 11 games ahead of Charlotte.

The Raptors are a treadmill team, but the Raptors are also a much better team than Charlotte. It doesn't take a genius to see that.

Funny, I recall people saying we were better than DET last off season. Unless we're going to use injuries for a second year in a row of excuses? We've done nothing to elevate us above any team not named WAS, and until we do, it's a reasonable assessment.

FWIW, I think we will finish above CHA, but to suggest it's a guarantee would be foolish.

If both teams are relatively healthy, there is a 0% chance the Raptors don't finish the season with at least 15 more wins. If the Raptors are as bad as you claim, we'd be competing for another lottery pick next year (which is what Charlotte will be doing). It's probably what we should be doing. But you know as well as I do that we won't be doing that.

CHA has seemingly picked a different direction. They took on Nurkic in a salary dump and tried to trade their starting C (Williams) for youth and picks. We made a win now move with Ingram. Barring some bigger free agents signings or trades by CHA we are going to be well ahead of them next year.