Official 2025 Offseason Thread

[VFX]

The whole point of making a trade is to obtain a positive asset. What you just described is called a lateral move.

If you’re determined to “win a trade” - good luck, especially with what you agree are assets that, in most trades we discuss, clearly require draft equity just to unload. A lateral value move for fit is PRECISELY what “defense for offense” means.

I have no attachment to the draft picks. They to me are more valuable as a trade asset.


I don’t believe we need luck. I believe Weltman needs to just pull his head out of his own ass and see the glaring issue (sounds like he has) and make a trade to right it like many other GM’s instead of kicking the can down the road.

Right.

And while it is true that these draft picks aren’t great, and people overvalue them, they are currently super valuable to Orlando due to cap sheet money reasons.

They are rookie scale contract players at a time when Orlando is facing first and second apron realities.

[89Magicfan]

KCP and Cole Anthony are not positive assets. Nobody in this trade is a positive asset.

The whole point of making a trade is to obtain a positive asset. What you just described is called a lateral move.

You see his scoring and 3pt shot and think we could use that, doesn’t cost us a ton (will deplete us of assets which can be used a filler etc) and keep most of our core. I get it but you’re taking about a player who’s contributed to wins in a small body of work. Everything else is mediocre less than satisfactory results. He’s the shooting version of RJ Hampton. Wows you with his outside shot, long distance pull ups (like RJ’s athleticism) but everything else is just like damn tf was that?

We would be getting him hoping we make him better not him making us better.

We need someone we know makes us better. Our offensive problems which have been well discussed a million times over aren’t just shooting and spacing. Paolo/Franz needs someone who can help them as well with the playmaking. Setting the tone. Setting the table. Calling the right plays see the floor,, the pace, the game in a way that Poole can’t fathom.

Poole as a backup at half the cost he’s at now, with our team already set, great. Bring him in and let him mesh but to bring him right now at his cost with our offensive problems, he’ll just inflame it.

I don’t disagree with a lot of this.

The choice Orlando has right now is one of three options. Two are real options:

Option 1. Spend draft picks + players for an upgrade in the back court (Simons, Sexton, Monk, and a reach in Reaves or C.White).

This option is appealing because these players address needs and lands a positive asset. However, moving draft picks limits other moves Orlando can make. They aren’t 1 total move or player away from completing moves this offseason. Thats because Weltman didn’t make moves for 4 seasons. This option also makes it more difficult to address other needs on the roster because you are limiting your asset pool to acquire said players. This becomes easier spent on the lesser talent. Sexton probably lands in option 1.5 - the others not so much. The other issue is that you have to pay these guys after you acquire them. The money is going up, not down, for most of them.

Option 2. Move pieces for a lateral trade that consolidates assets while keeping flexibility for other roster decisions. This is like the Poole deal.

This isn’t appealing at face value because everyone wants big name players that have a draw. Poole isn’t as appealing as the other names because of his contract. What makes this deal appealing is that Weltman can use all the other assets at his disposal to upgrade the rest of the roster. Cole Anthony, KCP, Jon Isaac, and Goga are not positive assets that net you upgrades across the rest of the roster. Keeping 16 + 25 gives Orlando either two rookie scale contributors as insurance to move these players OR fodder to upgrade other spots. Orlando can also add a player like NAW using the MLE. Pooles money is going down, not up, if his deal is renegotiated.

Option 3: Do nothing

I get the logic to number 2 but I’m sticking with number 1. We don’t need more players we need better.

Number 2 is fine if you tried and tried with number 1 to work but we haven’t begun with rumors and we are already waiving the white flag on number 1. Nope I’m not letting Weltman who **** up last off season, did nothing last deadline, just to settle and go back for a nap. Time to work.

[yoyojw17]

I think people are missing the point on Poole.

Do I think he’s a smart player? No.
Is his contract absurd? Yes.

Would I rather have him run point for 1 season if it means getting off KCP and Cole’s money? Yes.

Neither of those players do anything for Orlando right now. Jordan Poole can actually move an offense enough to get Franz and Paolo better looks at the basket. He’s also only 25 years old still.

Do I think it’s the best possible ideal scenario? Not really, but that’s where Weltman has left the options to balance the cap sheet and improve the team at face value.

I don’t think Poole requires the 16th or 25th picks either. Washington has a bunch of younger guards they’d rather play.

He's got 2 more seasons on his contract. Same as KCP and Cole has a team option on that last year.

Yeah it’s called consolidating contracts and addressing team needs.

Ah... I misunderstood. Thought you were referring to getting off of their deals earlier. My bad

[89Magicfan]

If you’re determined to “win a trade” - good luck, especially with what you agree are assets that, in most trades we discuss, clearly require draft equity just to unload. A lateral value move for fit is PRECISELY what “defense for offense” means.

I have no attachment to the draft picks. They to me are more valuable as a trade asset.


I don’t believe we need luck. I believe Weltman needs to just pull his head out of his own ass and see the glaring issue (sounds like he has) and make a trade to right it like many other GM’s instead of kicking the can down the road.

Right.

And while it is true that these draft picks aren’t great, and people overvalue them, they are currently super valuable to Orlando due to cap sheet money reasons.

They are rookie scale contract players at a time when Orlando is facing first and second apron realities.

I get that and if draft pick is where you want to get better, trade up. Find a guy you really think makes us better down the road and trade up. Lot of teams are rumored to be trading down or even out. Why is that? Because outside of Flagg, the options aren’t there.

I’m sticking with my belief to trade them.

[Knightro]

Maybe it was fools gold since the Wizards only won 18 games, but I thought Poole showed a lot more restraint and played a much better overall floor game this past year than maybe at any point in his career, even his Golden State days.

Only 20 players in the entire NBA last year averaged 20.5 PPG on at least a .591 TS%.

6 were former/current NBA MVPs: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Stephen Curry, LeBron James, Kevin Durant

11 were former/current NBA All-Stars: Karl-Anthony Towns, Anthony Edwards, Jalen Brunson, Darius Garland, Damian Lillard, Tyler Herro, Jaren Jackson Jr., Kyrie Irving, Victor Wembanyama, Zion Williamson, Zach LaVine

And 3 "others": Norman Powell, Trey Murphy III and... Jordan Poole

[eyriq]

We’re at the point in the build where we need more consistent offensive guard play. That should have come from Suggs leveling up his halfcourt scoring and creation, but now will need to come from acquiring someone like Simons, Sexton, Coby, Garland, Reaves, White, or Poole who can fill that need.

That upgrade can happen in a few ways: we can replace Suggs outright, upgrade the KCP or Cole salary slot with a more dynamic scorer, or consolidate multiple slots into one higher-end offensive piece. But standing pat at guard and expecting internal growth alone to carry the offense feels like a gamble we can’t afford.

[Knightro]

We’re at the point in the build where we need more consistent offensive guard play. That should have come from Suggs leveling up his halfcourt scoring and creation, but now will need to come from acquiring someone like Simons, Sexton, Coby, Garland, Reaves, White, or Poole who can fill that need.

That upgrade can happen in a few ways: we can replace Suggs outright, upgrade the KCP or Cole salary slot with a more dynamic scorer, or consolidate multiple slots into one higher-end offensive piece. But standing pat at guard and expecting internal growth alone to carry the offense feels like a gamble we can’t afford.

I'm pretty into the idea of using the KCP/Cole salary slot to upgrade with a more dynamic scoring guard than Cole and then replacing the 3&D capabilities of KCP with NAW on the mid level.

[89Magicfan]

We’re at the point in the build where we need more consistent offensive guard play. That should have come from Suggs leveling up his halfcourt scoring and creation, but now will need to come from acquiring someone like Simons, Sexton, Coby, Garland, Reaves, White, or Poole who can fill that need.

That upgrade can happen in a few ways: we can replace Suggs outright, upgrade the KCP or Cole salary slot with a more dynamic scorer, or consolidate multiple slots into one higher-end offensive piece. But standing pat at guard and expecting internal growth alone to carry the offense feels like a gamble we can’t afford.

Agreed. I like Garland but the cost is high. You pair him with Suggs is picture perfect but salary wise I don’t think you can add him in that manner (not sure) and I don’t think Cleveland touches the phone without Suggs. If Weltman can pull it off and keep Suggs, God bless him.

Second I like Reaves. Think he comes in and right away makes us better offensively. A good decision maker with the ball.

[Knightro]

I do find it a little bit funny that people are citing the fact that Poole has played on a bad team the last two years as a reason why they don't want him, but basically ignoring the Blazers have won 27, 33, 21 and 36 games the last four seasons since Simons became a starter for them. It's a similar thing for Sexton too.

A lot of these guys haven't played a lot of meaningful basketball recently and we really don't know how they're going to react to being on a team that's expected to win immediately.

[89Magicfan]

I do find it a little bit funny that people are citing the fact that Poole has played on a bad team the last two years as a reason why they don't want him, but basically ignoring the Blazers have won 27, 33, 21 and 36 games the last four seasons since Simons became a starter for them. It's a similar thing for Sexton too.

A lot of these guys haven't played a lot of meaningful basketball recently and we really don't know how they're going to react to being on a team that's expected to win immediately.

It’s not that. It’s the plays he makes that they don’t show you on his highlight reel.

[VFX]

Taking salary out of the equation for a second…

What makes the Magic better on the basketball court the next two years?

Cole and KCP

Or

Poole and NAW

I think that’s the question to answer.

If we ignore the new CBA, what is better

Cole and kcp

Or

Trae + Giannis?

Lol.

Cole and KCP = $35m
Poole and NAW = $42m maybe

Are you also assuming zero other cost cutting moves are being made?

[pepe1991]

Last year with Wizards- Warriors ( Edit,brainfart) second worst net rating on a team
2023-24- second worst net rating on Wizards
2024-25- among players old enough to order a drink on Wizards- second worst net rating

It's silly to talk about his "Offense" like it was silly to talk about Kuzma and his. Even if it's "effective", it's 30% usage rate on dead last offense in nba that brought them 18-64 record and legit 2/3rd of their season were some of most pathetic basketball for any nba team in entire nba history.


And who led a charge? Jordan Poole and Kyle Kuzma. To surprise of anybody with BBIQ over 70.


If you want to talk about "surface " stats, 22-6-4 ,55% TS is stat line both Banchero and Kyle Kuzma achieved , wanna trade ?

From Wizards board one of posts, i think it's all you need to know about Poole and Wizards

I'm not saying that Poole is a real prize or anything. But in an odd way, the Wizards are likely to value him more than a lot of other teams:
He carries a high usage which allows most of the young players to play an appropriate role on offense (none of our young players are ready to take on first-option responsibilities).
His contract keeps us above the salary minimum, but comes off the books just when the Wizards might try and get frisky in free agency.
He is a pretty good locker room leader who leads by example with elite work ethic.
He's not actually good enough to spearhead an efficient offense so he ensures that the team will tank for one more season (we owe a top 8 protected pick to the Knicks).

Basically they keep him to not pay anybody else and because he helps them suck.

[Knightro]

Last year with Wizards- Warriors ( Edit,brainfart) second worst net rating on a team
2023-24- second worst net rating on Wizards
2024-25- among players old enough to order a drink on Wizards- second worst net rating

It's silly to talk about his "Offense" like it was silly to talk about Kuzma and his. Even if it's "effective", it's 30% usage rate on dead last offense in nba that brought them 18-64 record and legit 2/3rd of their season were some of most pathetic basketball for any nba team in entire nba history.


And who led a charge? Jordan Poole and Kyle Kuzma. To surprise of anybody with BBIQ over 70.


If you want to talk about "surface " stats, 22-6-4 ,55% TS is stat line both Banchero and Kyle Kuzma achieved , wanna trade ?

From Wizards board one of posts, i think it's all you need to know about Poole and Wizards

I'm not saying that Poole is a real prize or anything. But in an odd way, the Wizards are likely to value him more than a lot of other teams:
He carries a high usage which allows most of the young players to play an appropriate role on offense (none of our young players are ready to take on first-option responsibilities).
His contract keeps us above the salary minimum, but comes off the books just when the Wizards might try and get frisky in free agency.
He is a pretty good locker room leader who leads by example with elite work ethic.
He's not actually good enough to spearhead an efficient offense so he ensures that the team will tank for one more season (we owe a top 8 protected pick to the Knicks).

Basically they keep him to not pay anybody else and because he helps them suck.

I'd be more willing to roll with you if Poole's entire career was nothing but bad teams and all of his career games were irrelevant and meaningless.

But across the 21-22 and 22-23 seasons he averaged 19.5 PPG on a .584 TS% on teams that won 53 and 44 games and also won four playoff series.

So there is at least a track record of him being able to be an efficient scorer on a playoff team in addition to being an efficient scorer on a bad team that's tanking.

[Rainwater]

I do find it a little bit funny that people are citing the fact that Poole has played on a bad team the last two years as a reason why they don't want him, but basically ignoring the Blazers have won 27, 33, 21 and 36 games the last four seasons since Simons became a starter for them. It's a similar thing for Sexton too.

A lot of these guys haven't played a lot of meaningful basketball recently and we really don't know how they're going to react to being on a team that's expected to win immediately.

I completely agree a lot of guys are miscast in positions they shouldn’t be in and are better off if given another role. AG was miscast in Orlando and didn’t play a lot of meaningful games but put him in Denver where he is not asked to do nearly as much he is a pretty good player. Poole was a pretty good player as a 6th man in Golden State but ask him to be a go to go in Washington is just not who he is. I feel like the same case for guys like Simons and Coby White. Good players but just need to be in the right situation.

[Knightro]

The reality of the situation is that 26-27 is going to be a rough season for the Magic's ownership group financially speaking pretty much no matter what they do. If they make no moves or if they make a bunch of moves, 26-27 is gonna be an expensive year.

But things will calm back down in 27-28.

[Skybox]

KCP and Cole Anthony are not positive assets. Nobody in this trade is a positive asset.

The whole point of making a trade is to obtain a positive asset. What you just described is called a lateral move.

You see his scoring and 3pt shot and think we could use that, doesn’t cost us a ton (will deplete us of assets which can be used a filler etc) and keep most of our core. I get it but you’re taking about a player who’s contributed to wins in a small body of work. Everything else is mediocre less than satisfactory results. He’s the shooting version of RJ Hampton. Wows you with his outside shot, long distance pull ups (like RJ’s athleticism) but everything else is just like damn tf was that?

We would be getting him hoping we make him better not him making us better.

We need someone we know makes us better. Our offensive problems which have been well discussed a million times over aren’t just shooting and spacing. Paolo/Franz needs someone who can help them as well with the playmaking. Setting the tone. Setting the table. Calling the right plays see the floor,, the pace, the game in a way that Poole can’t fathom.

Poole as a backup at half the cost he’s at now, with our team already set, great. Bring him in and let him mesh but to bring him right now at his cost with our offensive problems, he’ll just inflame it.

I don’t disagree with a lot of this.

The choice Orlando has right now is one of three options. Two are real options:

Option 1. Spend draft picks + players for an upgrade in the back court (Simons, Sexton, Monk, and a reach in Reaves or C.White).

This option is appealing because these players address needs and lands a positive asset. However, moving draft picks limits other moves Orlando can make. They aren’t 1 total move or player away from completing moves this offseason. Thats because Weltman didn’t make moves for 4 seasons. This option also makes it more difficult to address other needs on the roster because you are limiting your asset pool to acquire said players. This becomes easier spent on the lesser talent. Sexton probably lands in option 1.5 - the others not so much. The other issue is that you have to pay these guys after you acquire them. The money is going up, not down, for most of them.

Option 2. Move pieces for a lateral trade that consolidates assets while keeping flexibility for other roster decisions. This is like the Poole deal.

This isn’t appealing at face value because everyone wants big name players that have a draw. Poole isn’t as appealing as the other names because of his contract. What makes this deal appealing is that Weltman can use all the other assets at his disposal to upgrade the rest of the roster. Cole Anthony, KCP, Jon Isaac, and Goga are not positive assets that net you upgrades across the rest of the roster. Keeping 16 + 25 gives Orlando either two rookie scale contributors as insurance to move these players OR fodder to upgrade other spots. Orlando can also add a player like NAW using the MLE. Pooles money is going down, not up, if his deal is renegotiated.

Option 3: Do nothing

Yeah...theoretically (you wouldn't but)...you could get Poole for just guys and still get Simons, Sexton, etc with other assets. I'd love to address our main issue with Poole and still have all of our REAL trade assets...throwing picks and lesser bodies could give us a better starting C, a better bench AND, possibly still have a high-upside rotaion swing pick like Coward, Wolf, Clayton or Clifford. I understand that Poole is a risk, perhaps riskier than others - but I can pick apart ANY of them other than Derrick White.

Garland is soft and tiny and the price would be Suggs and more...then Suggs would come back and eat our hearts in front of us
Simons has all of the tools but lacks any BBIQ or internal drive to play defense...he's just a more athletic-looking Kennard and no pay cut coming either
Smith will cost a lot and he's been mediocre at best until the last 2 years - he'll end up breaking the bank...buying very high
Sexton is a ball-pounding dwarf that we're only calling a PG because he's tiny...he'll want a big raise too based on his empty stats
McCollum...no thanks for the cryptkeeper...he's been putting up empty stats for ...over a decade and he's on his last legs, just like KCP
Jrue...are you crazy, the guy is 100 years old and his scoring and assists are way down because of it - not because he's on an elite team, and the $$$
Porzingis, Brogdon...what are we running a hospital ward here for billionaire patients?

Poole...even more championship experience with clear impact than KCP, Very good size for a modern Lead Guard, has put up amazing scoring and shooting numbers for his whole career - even playing alongside some of the highest usage scorers in league history, not on crap teams. Commonly
known to be a very hard worker by teammates - even Draymond acknowldeges this. Blah Blah Michigan...

All of this is a stretch or more than a stretch, but picking guys apart is easy - finding viable solutions that fit our situation, timeline, payroll, etc is not so easy. THERE WILL BE A COMPROMISE...Plucking a talented guy from a bad team is the most likely scenario for a yin/yang complementary trade that both sides can live with...as opposed to expecting a playoff team (especially in the East) to trade a good player for future assets, without taking on absurd salary - which we can't do. We're not in position to "help" BOS, because we're facing the same concerns. LAST SUMMER would have been the time to pounce, but apparently none of the FO had read the new CBA rules yet.

[pepe1991]

Last year with Wizards- Warriors ( Edit,brainfart) second worst net rating on a team
2023-24- second worst net rating on Wizards
2024-25- among players old enough to order a drink on Wizards- second worst net rating

It's silly to talk about his "Offense" like it was silly to talk about Kuzma and his. Even if it's "effective", it's 30% usage rate on dead last offense in nba that brought them 18-64 record and legit 2/3rd of their season were some of most pathetic basketball for any nba team in entire nba history.


And who led a charge? Jordan Poole and Kyle Kuzma. To surprise of anybody with BBIQ over 70.


If you want to talk about "surface " stats, 22-6-4 ,55% TS is stat line both Banchero and Kyle Kuzma achieved , wanna trade ?

From Wizards board one of posts, i think it's all you need to know about Poole and Wizards

I'm not saying that Poole is a real prize or anything. But in an odd way, the Wizards are likely to value him more than a lot of other teams:
He carries a high usage which allows most of the young players to play an appropriate role on offense (none of our young players are ready to take on first-option responsibilities).
His contract keeps us above the salary minimum, but comes off the books just when the Wizards might try and get frisky in free agency.
He is a pretty good locker room leader who leads by example with elite work ethic.
He's not actually good enough to spearhead an efficient offense so he ensures that the team will tank for one more season (we owe a top 8 protected pick to the Knicks).

Basically they keep him to not pay anybody else and because he helps them suck.

I'd be more willing to roll with you if Poole's entire career was nothing but bad teams and all of his career games were irrelevant and meaningless.

But across the 21-22 and 22-23 seasons he averaged 19.5 PPG on a .584 TS% on teams that won 53 and 44 games and also won four playoff series.

So there is at least a track record of him being able to be an efficient scorer on a playoff team in addition to being an efficient scorer on a bad team that's tanking.

On team with best PG of all time, top 10 SG of all time and one of top 10 greatest defenders of all time.

He was 4th best player on championship roster. You can say the same about Kuzma as well.


I already replayed on other thread about this, but to sum up, his stats are fabrication and nothing tangible, just like Kuzma's stats were before they found fools to take him off. Bucks really striked gold with that 22-6-4 all star, didn't they?

Poole is 40# in FGA in 4th quarters, while his team hardly ever play close games. Wizards keep him for 35 min a game even in games when they are down by 30, so he can "fix" stats and add numbers.
He has 30% usage rate on 30# ranked offense.
He is turnover prone guy who makes terrible basketball decisions with ball.
He can't defend.

He is very good at making terrible shots. Last thing Magic need is more terrible shots.

[Knightro]

I'm also more in on Poole than someone like Simons because if it doesn't work out, you haven't altered your financial timeline beyond the current KCP timeline.

If Poole completely flamed out, he would be coming off the books ahead of the summer of 2027 and would immediately alleviate any financial distress the Magic may be under at that time.

Wouldn't be the case with Simons as you'd have to give him a new contract that would probably be at least 3 years.

[Skybox]

I'm also more in on Poole than someone like Simons because if it doesn't work out, you haven't altered your financial timeline beyond the current KCP timeline.

If Poole completely flamed out, he would be coming off the books ahead of the summer of 2027 and would immediately alleviate any financial distress the Magic may be under at that time.

Wouldn't be the case with Simons as you'd have to give him a new contract that would probably be at least 3 years.

Plus...that's about when AB is supposed to be developed, right? No skipping steps

[Knightro]

On team with best PG of all time, top 10 SG of all time and one of top 10 greatest defenders of all time.

He was 4th best player on championship roster. You can say the same about Kuzma as well.

I already replayed on other thread about this, but to sum up, his stats are fabrication and nothing tangible, just like Kuzma's stats were before they found fools to take him off. Bucks really striked gold with that 22-6-4 all star, didn't they?

Poole is 40# in FGA in 4th quarters, while his team hardly ever play close games. Wizards keep him for 35 min a game even in games when they are down by 30, so he can "fix" stats and add numbers.
He has 30% usage rate on 30# ranked offense.
He is turnover prone guy who makes terrible basketball decisions with ball.
He can't defend.

He is very good at making terrible shots. Last thing Magic need is more terrible shots.

You're exaggerating a little bit.

Poole only played 29.4 MPG for the season this past year.

An example of a guy who actually had his stats "fixed" last year would be Tyrese Maxey who played 37.7 MPG and averaged 21.0 FG attempts per game on a 24-win team. THAT is playing a lot of minutes and doing shameless gunning. And I love Maxey, so I'm not knocking him - just pointing out basic facts that he played a ton of minutes and took a ton of shots in games they were losing which juiced his overall numbers.

Poole also only averaged 15.5 shot attempts per game too, which ranked just 50th in the NBA. Fewer per game than Simons btw. Way less than Paolo or Franz.