OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal

[NinjaBro]

Siakam gets his number retired by us and Indi?

Retire it for winning ECF?

That's more than Vince Carter accomplished and we retired his jersey.

[tsherkin]

Siakam gets his number retired by us and Indi?

Retire it for winning ECF?

That's more than Vince Carter accomplished and we retired his jersey.

To be fair, Vince was also one of the most exciting players in the league, the first serious star in franchise history and a landmark moment in establish the legitimacy of our franchise... and led us to the second round for the first time in franchise history.

Pascal is none of those things to Indiana.

[Merit]

I still think their #1 option is Haliburton, and that’s no shade to Pascal who has been amazing for them.

[tsherkin]

I still think their #1 option is Haliburton, and that’s no shade to Pascal who has been amazing for them.

Of course their first option is Haliburton. Pascal's been great; he appears to be in an ideal position for his skillset, and it's awesome to see him such a good situation.

[Merit]

I still think their #1 option is Haliburton, and that’s no shade to Pascal who has been amazing for them.

Of course their first option is Haliburton. Pascal's been great; he appears to be in an ideal position for his skillset, and it's awesome to see him such a good situation.

Agreed. Just responding to the OP’s title of the post. I’ve always given pascal his flowers.

[tsherkin]

I still think their #1 option is Haliburton, and that’s no shade to Pascal who has been amazing for them.

Of course their first option is Haliburton. Pascal's been great; he appears to be in an ideal position for his skillset, and it's awesome to see him such a good situation.

Agreed. Just responding to the OP’s title of the post. I’ve always given pascal his flowers.

As much as I'm peeved we traded him, I'm glad he landed in a great situation.

[kalel123]

A lot of reactionary people here. Good for Pascal, he landed in the perfect situation and delivered for them. As for the people asking for Masai's head, a lot of you seem to forget, we tried to put the team in Pascal's hands and it wasn't working. Pascal is not a number one, he needs ton of shooters and help around him to be efficient as we saw it during the championship year and now in Indy. The Pacers are deep and actually have centers that can shoot which Pascal needs to be effective.

For the others losing their minds at Masai for calling out Pascal back then, I don't know how you can react like that. None of you were in that locker room and none of you knew what was really going on. The mix of Pascal and Fred as leaders wasn't good for the team and wasn't working. He had to pay all of them eventually or build around Scottie. I wished he kept OG but hey it is what it is and let's cheer for the new era of the Raptors and move on. I'm happy that Pascal, OG and Fred all landed in great situations for them but the truth is when they were together it wasn't working.

While I agree that one of the reason things failed here is that we got bunch of guys that were number two's and three's and nobody could step up to be a number one, including Siakam, we have to remember Masai Ujiri is the one who failed to recognize this very fact and put us in that position in the first place. He also failed to surround that core with any kind of decent depth, which is why the team failed in short order instead of sustaining some kind of success similar to Lowry/DeRozan years. He is also the one that dragged his feet and waited until it was too late to clean house even when it was clear things weren't going to work out, severely limiting the return we could get for Siakam.

So while you are right that the reason Siakam has done well is because he's in the role that fits him the best as a second guy, for us, this is all on Masai Ujiri so it's very logical that some people wouldn't mind him gone. He has one more season to prove himself but if this team fails to perform for whatever reason (because Ingram's injury risk is well documented by now), he should be the one to go.

There's plenty of blame to go around but I can't blame Masai for giving them a chance to figure it out. The Scottie-Fred-OG--Pascal core and then Poetl should have been good enough to be a playoff team but they couldn't figure it out and that's on them. It wasn't a secret the atmosphere was toxic and Masai took a direction. Masai wouldn't have called them out if it wasn't a big issue and the team culture was taking a big hit during that time. Like I've said I only would have kept OG but it didn't happen, I've moved on and I'm not bitter about it. I'm still happy that Masai is in charge and I'm even happier for Pascal who ate a lot of crap throughout the years when outsiders said he had no bag. Good for him.

Not blaming Ujiri for giving them a chance to figure it out. But the blame is entirely on him for failing to surround them with depth needed to compete because if a team wants to succeed without a true #1, you at least need some kind of depth. Raptors had neither. And to that end, no, Ujiri did not give them a chance to figure it out and/or failed at doing so. Due to sleeping at the wheel or pure incompetence, take your pick but he failed and that's on him. Were they less than sum of their parts? Maybe. But I don't know how much further they could've gone on just team "culture" with a roster that doesn't really fit together, without #1 guy, and with no depth.

[earthtone]

While I agree that one of the reason things failed here is that we got bunch of guys that were number two's and three's and nobody could step up to be a number one, including Siakam, we have to remember Masai Ujiri is the one who failed to recognize this very fact and put us in that position in the first place. He also failed to surround that core with any kind of decent depth, which is why the team failed in short order instead of sustaining some kind of success similar to Lowry/DeRozan years. He is also the one that dragged his feet and waited until it was too late to clean house even when it was clear things weren't going to work out, severely limiting the return we could get for Siakam.

So while you are right that the reason Siakam has done well is because he's in the role that fits him the best as a second guy, for us, this is all on Masai Ujiri so it's very logical that some people wouldn't mind him gone. He has one more season to prove himself but if this team fails to perform for whatever reason (because Ingram's injury risk is well documented by now), he should be the one to go.

There's plenty of blame to go around but I can't blame Masai for giving them a chance to figure it out. The Scottie-Fred-OG--Pascal core and then Poetl should have been good enough to be a playoff team but they couldn't figure it out and that's on them. It wasn't a secret the atmosphere was toxic and Masai took a direction. Masai wouldn't have called them out if it wasn't a big issue and the team culture was taking a big hit during that time. Like I've said I only would have kept OG but it didn't happen, I've moved on and I'm not bitter about it. I'm still happy that Masai is in charge and I'm even happier for Pascal who ate a lot of crap throughout the years when outsiders said he had no bag. Good for him.

Not blaming Ujiri for giving them a chance to figure it out. But the blame is entirely on him for failing to surround them with depth needed to compete because if a team wants to succeed without a true #1, you at least need some kind of depth. Raptors had neither. And to that end, no, Ujiri did not give them a chance to figure it out and/or failed at doing so. Due to sleeping at the wheel or pure incompetence, take your pick but he failed and that's on him. Were they less than sum of their parts? Maybe. But I don't know how much further they could've gone on just team "culture" with a roster that doesn't really fit together, without #1 guy, and with no depth.

Sleeping at the wheel, pure incompetence, or maybe - just maybe - due to trading away some of that depth to build a championship team.

But that couldn’t be it, gotta be incompetence

[kalel123]

There's plenty of blame to go around but I can't blame Masai for giving them a chance to figure it out. The Scottie-Fred-OG--Pascal core and then Poetl should have been good enough to be a playoff team but they couldn't figure it out and that's on them. It wasn't a secret the atmosphere was toxic and Masai took a direction. Masai wouldn't have called them out if it wasn't a big issue and the team culture was taking a big hit during that time. Like I've said I only would have kept OG but it didn't happen, I've moved on and I'm not bitter about it. I'm still happy that Masai is in charge and I'm even happier for Pascal who ate a lot of crap throughout the years when outsiders said he had no bag. Good for him.

Not blaming Ujiri for giving them a chance to figure it out. But the blame is entirely on him for failing to surround them with depth needed to compete because if a team wants to succeed without a true #1, you at least need some kind of depth. Raptors had neither. And to that end, no, Ujiri did not give them a chance to figure it out and/or failed at doing so. Due to sleeping at the wheel or pure incompetence, take your pick but he failed and that's on him. Were they less than sum of their parts? Maybe. But I don't know how much further they could've gone on just team "culture" with a roster that doesn't really fit together, without #1 guy, and with no depth.

Sleeping at the wheel, pure incompetence, or maybe - just maybe - due to trading away some of that depth to build a championship team.

But that couldn’t be it, gotta be incompetence

Through 5 years? **** yeah, incompetence. Not like we traded away 3 future first round picks and 2 pick swaps for Kawhi.

[JCP11]

While I agree that one of the reason things failed here is that we got bunch of guys that were number two's and three's and nobody could step up to be a number one, including Siakam, we have to remember Masai Ujiri is the one who failed to recognize this very fact and put us in that position in the first place. He also failed to surround that core with any kind of decent depth, which is why the team failed in short order instead of sustaining some kind of success similar to Lowry/DeRozan years. He is also the one that dragged his feet and waited until it was too late to clean house even when it was clear things weren't going to work out, severely limiting the return we could get for Siakam.

So while you are right that the reason Siakam has done well is because he's in the role that fits him the best as a second guy, for us, this is all on Masai Ujiri so it's very logical that some people wouldn't mind him gone. He has one more season to prove himself but if this team fails to perform for whatever reason (because Ingram's injury risk is well documented by now), he should be the one to go.

There's plenty of blame to go around but I can't blame Masai for giving them a chance to figure it out. The Scottie-Fred-OG--Pascal core and then Poetl should have been good enough to be a playoff team but they couldn't figure it out and that's on them. It wasn't a secret the atmosphere was toxic and Masai took a direction. Masai wouldn't have called them out if it wasn't a big issue and the team culture was taking a big hit during that time. Like I've said I only would have kept OG but it didn't happen, I've moved on and I'm not bitter about it. I'm still happy that Masai is in charge and I'm even happier for Pascal who ate a lot of crap throughout the years when outsiders said he had no bag. Good for him.

Not blaming Ujiri for giving them a chance to figure it out. But the blame is entirely on him for failing to surround them with depth needed to compete because if a team wants to succeed without a true #1, you at least need some kind of depth. Raptors had neither. And to that end, no, Ujiri did not give them a chance to figure it out and/or failed at doing so. Due to sleeping at the wheel or pure incompetence, take your pick but he failed and that's on him. Were they less than sum of their parts? Maybe. But I don't know how much further they could've gone on just team "culture" with a roster that doesn't really fit together, without #1 guy, and with no depth.

Getting a #1 as we know is very difficult, there's only a few of those that in this league, they are rarely available and usually they don't come to Toronto in FA. That's situation was very tough to navigate and Masai and there wasn't a lot of time to wait. Either you sign Pascal and OG or start over with Scottie. Masai tried to give the core a try for a season and it didn't go well so he pulled the plug right away as he should have. What would you have done instead, in really curious to know?

[kalel123]

There's plenty of blame to go around but I can't blame Masai for giving them a chance to figure it out. The Scottie-Fred-OG--Pascal core and then Poetl should have been good enough to be a playoff team but they couldn't figure it out and that's on them. It wasn't a secret the atmosphere was toxic and Masai took a direction. Masai wouldn't have called them out if it wasn't a big issue and the team culture was taking a big hit during that time. Like I've said I only would have kept OG but it didn't happen, I've moved on and I'm not bitter about it. I'm still happy that Masai is in charge and I'm even happier for Pascal who ate a lot of crap throughout the years when outsiders said he had no bag. Good for him.

Not blaming Ujiri for giving them a chance to figure it out. But the blame is entirely on him for failing to surround them with depth needed to compete because if a team wants to succeed without a true #1, you at least need some kind of depth. Raptors had neither. And to that end, no, Ujiri did not give them a chance to figure it out and/or failed at doing so. Due to sleeping at the wheel or pure incompetence, take your pick but he failed and that's on him. Were they less than sum of their parts? Maybe. But I don't know how much further they could've gone on just team "culture" with a roster that doesn't really fit together, without #1 guy, and with no depth.

Getting a #1 as we know is very difficult, there's only a few of those that in this league, they are rarely available and usually they don't come to Toronto in FA. That's situation was very tough to navigate and Masai and there wasn't a lot of time to wait. Either you sign Pascal and OG or start over with Scottie. Masai tried to give the core a try for a season and it didn't go well so he pulled the plug right away as he should have. What would you have done instead, in really curious to know?

Guess the point about fit and depth just flew over your head?

[JCP11]

Not blaming Ujiri for giving them a chance to figure it out. But the blame is entirely on him for failing to surround them with depth needed to compete because if a team wants to succeed without a true #1, you at least need some kind of depth. Raptors had neither. And to that end, no, Ujiri did not give them a chance to figure it out and/or failed at doing so. Due to sleeping at the wheel or pure incompetence, take your pick but he failed and that's on him. Were they less than sum of their parts? Maybe. But I don't know how much further they could've gone on just team "culture" with a roster that doesn't really fit together, without #1 guy, and with no depth.

Getting a #1 as we know is very difficult, there's only a few of those that in this league, they are rarely available and usually they don't come to Toronto in FA. That's situation was very tough to navigate and Masai and there wasn't a lot of time to wait. Either you sign Pascal and OG or start over with Scottie. Masai tried to give the core a try for a season and it didn't go well so he pulled the plug right away as he should have. What would you have done instead, in really curious to know?

Guess the point about fit and depth just flew over your head?

Fit and depth is so broad that's why it flew over my head, I was looking for something more concrete like actual players that were available or who to keep who not to keep.

[tsherkin]

Not blaming Ujiri for giving them a chance to figure it out. But the blame is entirely on him for failing to surround them with depth needed to compete because if a team wants to succeed without a true #1, you at least need some kind of depth.

Post-Kawhi, what were the serious opportunities to add depth which would have made a material difference?

We lost Kawhi (which we knew was going to happen). We gave up 3 players and a 2nd rounder in 2024 to get Marc Gasol. We gave up Demar, Poetl, a 2019 1st for Danny Green. We'd given up Ross and a 2017 1st rounder for Ibaka.

Poeltl was our 2016 pick. We got OG late in 2017. Our first in 2020 was 29th overall, and we picked Malachi Flynn. We sucked in 2021 and that turned into Scottie. We didn't have a first in 2022, but had bounced back to 48 wins and took Gradey Dick with the 13th overall pick in the 2023 draft. We got a first in the 2024 draft in the Pascal trade, and it turned into Ja'Kobe Walter. We got RJ, Quick, Mogbo (a 2nd round pick) and a trade exception in the OG deal.

Somewhere in there, you're expecting us to have done what? Shy of sell-out tanking, I mean.

Like, sometimes, there are only so many options available to our team, especially based on the needs we had and how guys were performing at the time.

It's important to realize that GMs aren't actually wizards, right? Like, they make mistakes, they miss on stuff, some good ideas don't pan out, management policy interferes... but they can't fabricate opportunities out of nothing. For us to have taken any further steps, we'd have needed a player who didn't really emerge as available to us in that time period. Figuring out that it was time to turn it around wasn't incorrect, even if we don't love the details of how that happened.

That said, we could have tried carrying that out to its logical extension and making what we could of what opportunities arose. That's essentially what we're going to do now, it seems.

[Brinbe]

they probably should've traded for myles turner as we were all crying for when that old core was crying out for a C. even multiple 1sts would've been worth it as the fit was perfect as we're seeing now.

the other pivot opportunity was the dame trade and when lillard declined the move here it was curtains.

maybe they could've kept siakam and try to make it work around a iq/rj/scottie/pascal/yak lineup but that team wasn't making much noise.

trading scottie also the other pivot point but he's still only 23 and may well end up being a fine 2nd banana too so that doesn't really change anything.

after all is said and done we'll still have the ring and the pacers probably won't unless they somehow upset the thunder.

this reminds me of how everyone was all about kyrie last year after the mavs beat the wolves and then the love went away right after he got shut down against the celtics. we'll see if that happens again here after pascal comes up against jdub, chet and caruso next week.

[Tripod]

they probably should've traded for myles turner as we were all crying for when that old core was crying out for a C. even multiple 1sts would've been worth it as the fit was perfect as we're seeing now.

the other pivot opportunity was the dame trade and when lillard declined the move here it was curtains.

maybe they could've kept siakam and try to make it work around a iq/rj/scottie/pascal/yak lineup but that team wasn't making much noise.

trading scottie also the other pivot point but he's still only 23 and may well end up being a fine 2nd banana too so that doesn't really change anything.

after all is said and done we'll still have the ring and the pacers probably won't unless they somehow upset the thunder.

this reminds me of how everyone was all about kyrie last year after the mavs beat the wolves and then the love went away right after he got shut down against the celtics. we'll see if that happens again here after pascal comes up against jdub, chet and caruso next week.

Problem is, the reports were they wanted OG for Turner. So again that changes things completely. And most of the Raps boards were against that kind of move.

Masai absolutely failed in going so long without a legit C after losing Gasol and Serge. But tried the small ball C only and failed with the bigger guys like Len, etc...

But man, it's been less than 1.5 years since trading OG and PS and seems re-focused and he has completely revamped the team, it's depth, and coaching staff. He added 2 20 pt scorers and a combo guard capable of scoring 18 and shooting 40%. Our playable depth is at 11 deep and could be adding 9 and 39 to it.

And this offseason hasn't even started.

It's OK to have a deal where both teams make out ok, one in the shorter term, one longer. Let's see what he does next.

And hopefully Siakam and the Pacers shock everyone by winning game 1. It will make for a great series if that happens.

[RoteSchroder]

Not blaming Ujiri for giving them a chance to figure it out. But the blame is entirely on him for failing to surround them with depth needed to compete because if a team wants to succeed without a true #1, you at least need some kind of depth.

Post-Kawhi, what were the serious opportunities to add depth which would have made a material difference?

We lost Kawhi (which we knew was going to happen). We gave up 3 players and a 2nd rounder in 2024 to get Marc Gasol. We gave up Demar, Poetl, a 2019 1st for Danny Green. We'd given up Ross and a 2017 1st rounder for Ibaka.

Poeltl was our 2016 pick. We got OG late in 2017. Our first in 2020 was 29th overall, and we picked Malachi Flynn. We sucked in 2021 and that turned into Scottie. We didn't have a first in 2022, but had bounced back to 48 wins and took Gradey Dick with the 13th overall pick in the 2023 draft. We got a first in the 2024 draft in the Pascal trade, and it turned into Ja'Kobe Walter. We got RJ, Quick, Mogbo (a 2nd round pick) and a trade exception in the OG deal.

Somewhere in there, you're expecting us to have done what? Shy of sell-out tanking, I mean.

Like, sometimes, there are only so many options available to our team, especially based on the needs we had and how guys were performing at the time.

It's important to realize that GMs aren't actually wizards, right? Like, they make mistakes, they miss on stuff, some good ideas don't pan out, management policy interferes... but they can't fabricate opportunities out of nothing. For us to have taken any further steps, we'd have needed a player who didn't really emerge as available to us in that time period. Figuring out that it was time to turn it around wasn't incorrect, even if we don't love the details of how that happened.

That said, we could have tried carrying that out to its logical extension and making what we could of what opportunities arose. That's essentially what we're going to do now, it seems.

just a series of bad luck + going for the wrong players

1. We needed a C and targeted Koloko instead of just getting Kessler (Andrew Nembhard would have also been very useful)
2. Desmond Bane's T-rex arms probably led to us not drafting him and we got Flynn instead
3. Not sure why we just didn't want to pay Powell.
4. Giving the keys to Barnes without him having proven anything, also a mistake imo
5. Basically got nothing useful for Lowry

Probably enough to compete this year if we grabbed a back-up PG from a trade or FA signing. Davion off the bench would have been good.

Kessler / Edey (or other)
Siakam / Scottie
OG
Bane / Powell
FVV / Davion

[Brinbe]

they probably should've traded for myles turner as we were all crying for when that old core was crying out for a C. even multiple 1sts would've been worth it as the fit was perfect as we're seeing now.

the other pivot opportunity was the dame trade and when lillard declined the move here it was curtains.

maybe they could've kept siakam and try to make it work around a iq/rj/scottie/pascal/yak lineup but that team wasn't making much noise.

trading scottie also the other pivot point but he's still only 23 and may well end up being a fine 2nd banana too so that doesn't really change anything.

after all is said and done we'll still have the ring and the pacers probably won't unless they somehow upset the thunder.

this reminds me of how everyone was all about kyrie last year after the mavs beat the wolves and then the love went away right after he got shut down against the celtics. we'll see if that happens again here after pascal comes up against jdub, chet and caruso next week.

Problem is, the reports were they wanted OG for Turner. So again that changes things completely. And most of the Raps boards were against that kind of move.

Masai absolutely failed in going so long without a legit C after losing Gasol and Serge. But tried the small ball C only and failed with the bigger guys like Len, etc...

But man, it's been less than 1.5 years since trading OG and PS and seems re-focused and he has completely revamped the team, it's depth, and coaching staff. He added 2 20 pt scorers and a combo guard capable of scoring 18 and shooting 40%. Our playable depth is at 11 deep and could be adding 9 and 39 to it.

And this offseason hasn't even started.

It's OK to have a deal where both teams make out ok, one in the shorter term, one longer. Let's see what he does next.

And hopefully Siakam and the Pacers shock everyone by winning game 1. It will make for a great series if that happens.

LOL. I'm not denigrating the current direction or saying anything about how things are now. That has zero to do with it.

The whole entire thread and argument here is about making it work with pascal and how we should've kept him. And if that's the case, you do that OG deal then as Turner's spacing and defense as a big is low-key the thing that makes that entire thing work at all over there with the Pacers and he offers more unique value compared to OG, even if OG is a better player. We see that in Indiana and it would've had similar results here too. Are we contenders? Probaboy not, but he changes the equation for that core in a more positive direction as they badly needed a defensive big and spacing along with a capable backup guard. That championship team also had serge/marc spacing the floor too so it's really dumb that masai never recognised the value of it.

Of course Fred isnt Haliburton either, but that current Pacers model is what we would've attempted in terms of getting the most out of Pascal. And the whole point is that we recognised that back then too because we were vouching for a Turner trade!

What's done is done now, of course and I've always said that Masai did a good job of salvaging things in the 18 months or so since those deals but that's not what's being discussed here.

[tsherkin]

1. We needed a C and targeted Koloko instead of just getting Kessler (Andrew Nembhard would have also been very useful)
2. Desmond Bane's T-rex arms probably led to us not drafting him and we got Flynn instead
3. Not sure why we just didn't want to pay Powell.

Kessler would have been really nice, or Nembhard, yes. Flynn was garbage and Bane would have been considerably better, although he did kind of overlap with OG, so prior to him playing, I can kind of get behind the thought.

4. Giving the keys to Barnes without him having proven anything, also a mistake imo
5. Basically got nothing useful for Lowry

Yeah, going to Barnes as a focal piece was very odd and diametrically opposed to his scouting reports and what he'd been showing us.

Lowry was 34 and had just played 65, 58 and 46 games, so I don't know what offers would have been there for him at the time which would have been anything. We got Precious, Goran Dragic and a trade exception for him. Don't know that there would have been better offers on the table. Dragic, of course, was a huge flop and was out of the league shortly thereafter.

[Kingsway_fan]

Siakam gets his number retired by us and Indi?

Retire it for winning ECF?

That's more than Vince Carter accomplished and we retired his jersey.

Stop posting. You are a fool.

[NinjaBro]

Retire it for winning ECF?

That's more than Vince Carter accomplished and we retired his jersey.

Stop posting. You are a fool.

Did the truth hurt and broke your precious little heart?