Windhorst: Raptors making noise around the league looking for a “big fish” // Giannis & Toronto "Mutual Interest"/KD too

[mdenny]

Giannis would be bucking every trend if he stayed longer than his contract. Durant walked after multiple chips next to a hall of famer. Same for LeBron, lasted 4 years with the Heat (with LA being his retirement home).

Mercenary hunting doesn't lead to much loyalty. And we have nowhere near the cushy environments/running mates those teams had.

Likely scenario is Giannis gives you his 2 years and then hits FA where many teams are lining up cap space for him to walk into.

Any trades you make have to factor in that reality. Keep your 2027 and beyond picks if you can.

The days of teams opening up a max slot for premiere FA's are over. The last big FA signing was Kawhi and that was 6 years ago.

It's just become unnecessary when players can just secure the bag without risking injury and then just ask for a trade and have a lot of influence over where they end up.

Don't tell that to the Clippers/Nets/Heat (likely Lakers too) who made a number of moves to make sure they have that cap space in 2027 (The SGA/Giannis year, maybe even Luka).

Big FA years are on the calendar and big markets prepare accordingly.

I think the trend is here to stay. These contracts are for 150 to 250 million. There's no reason for players to risk that amount of money due to injury. Plus there's a mutual understanding that if players are unhappy they can demand trades and if teams are unhappy they can trade. It's increasingly looking like top 50ish players playing out the last year of their contract without extending the summer before are over.

We shall see if luka is the exception. If I were his agent....I would tell him "the Lakers benefitted from colluding in secret trade talks that ultimately cost you 100 million dollars. Send them a message and don't sign with them".

Luka was obviously betrayed by Dallas. But he was also kinda betrayed by the Lakers. He was never given the chance to leverage any power due to the secrecy of the negotiations. And the Lakers needed the negotiations to be secretive too.

The real loser in the Luka trade was Luka.

[TheRaptor!]

Doug

honestly, he doesnt have much choices if he wants to stay in the East.

I don't understand why he would even think about playing in the west. To get to the finals you need to get past:

Thunder, Houston, Lakers, Nuggets, Timberwolves, Warriors, Mavs, Grizzlies, Spurs

East? Pacers, Knicks, Cavaliers lol Boston is done next year and Pistons are relying on vets such as THJ, Malik Beasely, Harris and Schroder lol

The only two west teams to think of are SA and OKC if I'm him. Houston just doesn't have the horses to be overwhelming in the west.

The Spurs are an immediate favourite with him in the lineup. Assuming health and a high seed you're facing really only 2 tough series'. The 2nd and 3rd round. The bottom seed isn't likely a contender and you're facing a cakewalk finals with anything coming out of the east.

Any east team you join is likely weaker than the Spurs team and you're still running into a likely buzzsaw in the finals from a team out west.

But the east allure is likely becoming the saviour of a team, while joining Wemby/SGA won't have that narrative.

What about the regular season fighting for a good playoff seed?

[Merit]

Might be alone in this, but I’d honestly be very surprised if out starting five was anything other than IQ/RJ/Ingram/Barnes/Poeltl on opening night.

We’re looking like a much better team on paper already and it makes sense to try to win some games with this group before making any type of consolidation trades at the deadline/next offseason

I agree as well

Not averse to this.

[earthtone]

Honestly, I’m not really sure what Barnes value is across the league. He’s looking more like a #3 than he is a #1. He just came off a year where he was pretty much the worst volume scorer in the league. I could see some teams being high on him and others not. The luster is wearing off. I would think any team trading for him would have questions about his ceiling and if they would actually be getting value out of him when he’s now making $40m.

If I’m the Bucks I’m not very excited to build my future team around Barnes, Dick and the 9th pick. Given their lack of other assets it’s tough to see how the Bucks would build a competitive team around that roster. We’re having a hard enough time doing it and we’re starting from a much better position than they would be given their aging roster and low quality draft assets.

I can’t imagine Barnes’ value isn’t high around the league. He has his efficiency problems, but 23 year-old with DPOY potential who averaged 19/8/6 don’t grow on trees.

Would definitely take more than just one first, but I think Barnes/Dick/Ochai + all our 1sts/swaps till 2031 is a really competitive offer and could be enough to get it done if Giannis is motivated to come to T.O.

If Barnes, Gradey, Ochai & the 9th pick are offered, I honestly only think one more FRP probably needs to be offered. Masai realizes the value of holding onto future picks.

I’m sure Jon Horst also realizes the value of future picks too.

Hard to say for sure without knowing the other deals on the table, but I find it hard to imagine trading your franchise centrepiece/multiple time MVP without getting all tradeable firsts back from the other team (assuming you’re not Nico Harrison )

[RapsFanInOhio]

Has anyone actually broken down the salaries somewhere for a Giannis deal? It would almost have to include either Scottie or Ingram as a starting point, and even then, it would push us pretty well into the tax - which is something you do if it’s Giannis.

I would think it would almost certainly be Scottie, two of Grady / Agbaji / Walter, maybe one of Mgobo or Battle, and all of the picks. Interestingly, I would think this would need to happen after the start of the new league year because of Scottie’s poison pill, so I’m not convinced #9 would necessarily be on the table. I think they’re going BPA at 9 anyway, but if the pick is Kon or Coward and you swing a Giannis deal, it makes the losses of Walter / Dick / Agbaji that much easier to swallow.

Another random thought, but I think Giannis is the only “big fish” they’re after. I’m not convinced that they won’t give this roster a shot before blowing things up unless it’s for Giannis. That Scottie package above is pretty much on par with anything else in the market outside of anything unrealistic from OKC (who is going to win the ship and won’t make a move anyway).

[iBall101]

I'm against trading for Giannis. This is a bad idea. I would rather target Domantas Sabonis. Giannis will be washed in 2 seasons. Joel is already cooked.

[RapsFanInOhio]

I’m not going to lie, I appreciate Scottie in the same way I appreciated DeRozan, but this lineup gives me 2019 Raptors vibes in terms of “I think this can win a championship”:
IQ / Shead
RJ / Battle
Ingram / Agbaji
Giannis / Boucher
Poeltl / Maluach

Yeah, that’s pretty good.

[Scase]

If they are trading for Giannis, I think it is about the end of Giannis’s career. I don’t think Giannis is the type to want to move around a lot. If he was that interested in chasing rings, he would have left the Bucks instead of pushing for the Dame trade.

What Masai probably learned from the DD/KL situation was don’t wait so long. If a known superstar is available, and they can acquire him and maintain a team, do it.

Also, I wouldn’t use the team’s performance over the last two seasons as proof of anything. They were legitimately tanking both seasons, to build up the asset base they now have to be in play for Giannis this summer.

Also, the core left around Giannis is still young (BI, RJ & IQ), so if it works, they can run it out there for the next 4-5 years. And they would still have Mogbo, Walter and Shead off the bench, plus most of their future picks.

Giannis would be bucking every trend if he stayed longer than his contract. Durant walked after multiple chips next to a hall of famer. Same for LeBron, lasted 4 years with the Heat (with LA being his retirement home).

Mercenary hunting doesn't lead to much loyalty. And we have nowhere near the cushy environments/running mates those teams had.

Likely scenario is Giannis gives you his 2 years and then hits FA where many teams are lining up cap space for him to walk into.

Any trades you make have to factor in that reality. Keep your 2027 and beyond picks if you can.

I don’t think Giannis wants the legacy Durant has just built himself. It is a clear example of how jumping from team to team, and not producing results has just ruined Durant’s legacy late in his career. While he is viewed as one of the game’s great scorers, he is just not held in the same regard as Curry or Lebron. He would have done his legacy much more good if he just stayed with GSW.

Giannis is looking for a big market, where he can profit from his legacy. So that would mean trying to compete for a championship in the short term, and then living off that legacy for the remainder of his career.

Then why would he pick the Raps? Even if things all go well, that chance is low to nonexistent here, there are much better options he could force his way to if that was the play.

We offer nothing special here, definitely not the roster, add in the fact that Barnes is headed out with him headed in, and how complimentary he was about playing with Barnes, and then it just doesn't make much sense.

[earthtone]

Giannis would be bucking every trend if he stayed longer than his contract. Durant walked after multiple chips next to a hall of famer. Same for LeBron, lasted 4 years with the Heat (with LA being his retirement home).

Mercenary hunting doesn't lead to much loyalty. And we have nowhere near the cushy environments/running mates those teams had.

Likely scenario is Giannis gives you his 2 years and then hits FA where many teams are lining up cap space for him to walk into.

Any trades you make have to factor in that reality. Keep your 2027 and beyond picks if you can.

I don’t think Giannis wants the legacy Durant has just built himself. It is a clear example of how jumping from team to team, and not producing results has just ruined Durant’s legacy late in his career. While he is viewed as one of the game’s great scorers, he is just not held in the same regard as Curry or Lebron. He would have done his legacy much more good if he just stayed with GSW.

Giannis is looking for a big market, where he can profit from his legacy. So that would mean trying to compete for a championship in the short term, and then living off that legacy for the remainder of his career.

Then why would he pick the Raps? Even if things all go well, that chance is low to nonexistent here, there are much better options he could force his way to if that was the play.

We offer nothing special here, definitely not the roster, add in the fact that Barnes is headed out with him headed in, and how complimentary he was about playing with Barnes, and then it just doesn't make much sense.

Giannis + Ingram would instantly be one of the best duos in the league, and if we retained IQ/RJ/Yak, that’s a very, very strong starting five.

I don’t think it’s likely Giannis comes here, but there’s definitely some reasons it would be an appealing destination.

[hyper316]

See ya later Scottie

Giannis got at least 3 more good years

[LoganAndWade]

The irony of trading Pascal Siakam because he's "only a number two option" to then trade for a "big fish" who needs a number two option is too much for me to stomach.

Also weird how superstar and future face of the league needs a "big fish" on top of leading scoring option and ball handler Brandon Ingram and second scoring option RJ Barrett. What's his role on the team at that point and when does management get rid of everyone again to make sure Scottie's ego isn't bruised?

That's what you think happen? They traded away PS& OG, so not to upset Scottie !
I don't believe you actually think that !
You're just posting rage bait nonsense ! Prob cuz you're miserable

[RaptorPride]

If Philly blows it up maybe Masai could go for Embiid if he believes he could keep him healthy. IQ and RJ for Embiid
But Embiids contract is scary long term.

[Scase]

I don’t think Giannis wants the legacy Durant has just built himself. It is a clear example of how jumping from team to team, and not producing results has just ruined Durant’s legacy late in his career. While he is viewed as one of the game’s great scorers, he is just not held in the same regard as Curry or Lebron. He would have done his legacy much more good if he just stayed with GSW.

Giannis is looking for a big market, where he can profit from his legacy. So that would mean trying to compete for a championship in the short term, and then living off that legacy for the remainder of his career.

Then why would he pick the Raps? Even if things all go well, that chance is low to nonexistent here, there are much better options he could force his way to if that was the play.

We offer nothing special here, definitely not the roster, add in the fact that Barnes is headed out with him headed in, and how complimentary he was about playing with Barnes, and then it just doesn't make much sense.

Giannis + Ingram would instantly be one of the best duos in the league, and if we retained IQ/RJ/Yak, that’s a very, very strong starting five.

I don’t think it’s likely Giannis comes here, but there’s definitely some reasons it would be an appealing destination.

BI has not achieved anything in his entire career to suggest that, that would be one of the best duos in the league. Not to mention even if it worked out, between the two of them they'd play like 45-50 games together. You still make the trade no doubt, but I think you guys are overhyping the players this roster has, they are nothing but castoffs from other teams that have amounted to jack squat.

Jak/Giannis/Rj all occupy the same space on the court and none of them are particularly useful outside of 5ft aside from RJ, and even then, those shots need to be wide open. Giannis is just Scottie on steroids, the same limitations with the roster persist, he's not some panacea.

[RaptorPride]

Could we get both Curry and Giannis?

[TheRaptor!]

Then why would he pick the Raps? Even if things all go well, that chance is low to nonexistent here, there are much better options he could force his way to if that was the play.

We offer nothing special here, definitely not the roster, add in the fact that Barnes is headed out with him headed in, and how complimentary he was about playing with Barnes, and then it just doesn't make much sense.

Giannis + Ingram would instantly be one of the best duos in the league, and if we retained IQ/RJ/Yak, that’s a very, very strong starting five.

I don’t think it’s likely Giannis comes here, but there’s definitely some reasons it would be an appealing destination.

BI has not achieved anything in his entire career to suggest that, that would be one of the best duos in the league. Not to mention even if it worked out, between the two of them they'd play like 45-50 games together. You still make the trade no doubt, but I think you guys are overhyping the players this roster has, they are nothing but castoffs from other teams that have amounted to jack squat.

Jak/Giannis/Rj all occupy the same space on the court and none of them are particularly useful outside of 5ft aside from RJ, and even then, those shots need to be wide open. Giannis is just Scottie on steroids, the same limitations with the roster persist, he's not some panacea.

He'll get wide open shots all day long along side Giannis BI and IQ lol

[bboyskinnylegs]

as far as big fish go, is Luka a remote possibility? Being a free agent, he has way more leverage than anyone else in being able to control where he goes, and he already lost a ton of money being sent to the Lakers.

[earthtone]

Then why would he pick the Raps? Even if things all go well, that chance is low to nonexistent here, there are much better options he could force his way to if that was the play.

We offer nothing special here, definitely not the roster, add in the fact that Barnes is headed out with him headed in, and how complimentary he was about playing with Barnes, and then it just doesn't make much sense.

Giannis + Ingram would instantly be one of the best duos in the league, and if we retained IQ/RJ/Yak, that’s a very, very strong starting five.

I don’t think it’s likely Giannis comes here, but there’s definitely some reasons it would be an appealing destination.

BI has not achieved anything in his entire career to suggest that, that would be one of the best duos in the league. Not to mention even if it worked out, between the two of them they'd play like 45-50 games together. You still make the trade no doubt, but I think you guys are overhyping the players this roster has, they are nothing but castoffs from other teams that have amounted to jack squat.

Jak/Giannis/Rj all occupy the same space on the court and none of them are particularly useful outside of 5ft aside from RJ, and even then, those shots need to be wide open. Giannis is just Scottie on steroids, the same limitations with the roster persist, he's not some panacea.

I think you’re heavily underrating BI, but I’m pretty sure there’s nothing I could say to persuade you otherwise. We’ll just have to wait and see him on the court this year.

But how is “Scottie on steroids” not a panacea? If Scottie became a perennial DPOY & MVP candidate [through development or by trading him for Giannis], how would that not significantly elevate the team?

[earthtone]

as far as big fish go, is Luka a remote possibility? Being a free agent, he has way more leverage than anyone else in being able to control where he goes, and he already lost a ton of money being sent to the Lakers.

I don’t see any reason Luka would leave the Lakers tbh. One of the best markets/cities in the league, gets to play with one of the best players in the history of the sport, and it’s not like he can make more money anywhere else

[mdenny]

I’m not going to lie, I appreciate Scottie in the same way I appreciated DeRozan, but this lineup gives me 2019 Raptors vibes in terms of “I think this can win a championship”:
IQ / Shead
RJ / Battle
Ingram / Agbaji
Giannis / Boucher
Poeltl / Maluach

Yeah, that’s pretty good.

Another insane statement to make that is a pure function of the scotty cult.

Demar gave his heart and soul to this franchise. He started out an awkward teenager and matured into a respectable man that worked his ass off for the raptor franchise. Through his hard work we were a perennial 3 to 6 seed for multiple seasons. We traded him for an injured star player that won us a championship.

Scotty has literally done NOTHING for our franchise. I repeat: NOTHING.

The craziest thing about the scotty cult is that he could have another ho-hum season and they will emphasize his intangibles. But if he actually breaks through and has an allstar season we will never hear the end of it.

He can't lose with his cult. If he plays in such a way to maximize his efficiency stats than we are in for a whole lot of casual basketball fans gloating like morons.

[Son Goku 25]

I’m not going to lie, I appreciate Scottie in the same way I appreciated DeRozan, but this lineup gives me 2019 Raptors vibes in terms of “I think this can win a championship”:
IQ / Shead
RJ / Battle
Ingram / Agbaji
Giannis / Boucher
Poeltl / Maluach

Yeah, that’s pretty good.

Another insane statement to make that is a pure function of the scotty cult.

Demar gave his heart and soul to this franchise. He started out an awkward teenager and matured into a respectable man that worked his ass off for the raptor franchise. Through his hard work we were a perennial 3 to 6 seed for multiple seasons. We traded him for an injured star player that won us a championship.

Scotty has literally done NOTHING for our franchise. I repeat: NOTHING.

The craziest thing about the scotty cult is that he could have another ho-hum season and they will emphasize his intangibles. But if he actually breaks through and has an allstar season we will never hear the end of it.

He can't lose with his cult. If he plays in such a way to maximize his efficiency stats than we are in for a whole lot of casual basketball fans gloating like morons.

I get what you're saying but you gotta stop hating the man so much, almost sounds like he did something personal to you. At the end of the day, we are Raptors fans and I'd rather want our franchise cornerstone to be great cuz it'll help us win. If that means we find other players that's fine but for now it's Scottie and I'm gonna ride with him.