OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal

[Los_29]

Not blaming Ujiri for giving them a chance to figure it out. But the blame is entirely on him for failing to surround them with depth needed to compete because if a team wants to succeed without a true #1, you at least need some kind of depth.

Post-Kawhi, what were the serious opportunities to add depth which would have made a material difference?

We lost Kawhi (which we knew was going to happen). We gave up 3 players and a 2nd rounder in 2024 to get Marc Gasol. We gave up Demar, Poetl, a 2019 1st for Danny Green. We'd given up Ross and a 2017 1st rounder for Ibaka.

Poeltl was our 2016 pick. We got OG late in 2017. Our first in 2020 was 29th overall, and we picked Malachi Flynn. We sucked in 2021 and that turned into Scottie. We didn't have a first in 2022, but had bounced back to 48 wins and took Gradey Dick with the 13th overall pick in the 2023 draft. We got a first in the 2024 draft in the Pascal trade, and it turned into Ja'Kobe Walter. We got RJ, Quick, Mogbo (a 2nd round pick) and a trade exception in the OG deal.

Somewhere in there, you're expecting us to have done what? Shy of sell-out tanking, I mean.

Like, sometimes, there are only so many options available to our team, especially based on the needs we had and how guys were performing at the time.

It's important to realize that GMs aren't actually wizards, right? Like, they make mistakes, they miss on stuff, some good ideas don't pan out, management policy interferes... but they can't fabricate opportunities out of nothing. For us to have taken any further steps, we'd have needed a player who didn't really emerge as available to us in that time period. Figuring out that it was time to turn it around wasn't incorrect, even if we don't love the details of how that happened.

That said, we could have tried carrying that out to its logical extension and making what we could of what opportunities arose. That's essentially what we're going to do now, it seems.

just a series of bad luck + going for the wrong players

1. We needed a C and targeted Koloko instead of just getting Kessler (Andrew Nembhard would have also been very useful)
2. Desmond Bane's T-rex arms probably led to us not drafting him and we got Flynn instead
3. Not sure why we just didn't want to pay Powell.
4. Giving the keys to Barnes without him having proven anything, also a mistake imo
5. Basically got nothing useful for Lowry

Probably enough to compete this year if we grabbed a back-up PG from a trade or FA signing. Davion off the bench would have been good.

Kessler / Edey (or other)
Siakam / Scottie
OG
Bane / Powell
FVV / Davion

Team dropped down in the draft for cap flexibility. Kessler has helped anchor one of the worst teams in basketball. He can’t shoot, can’t pass and can’t guard out on the perimeter.

Bane was a tough one but he was drafted in the late 1st round. These misses happen all the time.

Powell was 30 years old.

How do we get Edey in this? We can’t just add players we had no chance to get to our team. lol.

[Los_29]

Siakam started to work on his 3 a lot when he started off the year historically bad. Started improving after the OG trade and we actually looked ok with IQ/RJ/Scottie/Siakam/Poeltl (3-1 with a close loss) and then the injury bug hit.

If Masai didn’t burn bridges and was willing to pay Siakam, the right move might have been to trade Scottie for some depth, since Scottie’s more natural position is PF and he’s not a good shooter. Given his improvement that season, it would have caused an uproar, but we could have gotten a lot more in return and essentially retooled the team in one season.

What? Pascal has been working on his 3pt shot since college. The guy couldn’t even shoot coming out of college. Pascal is well known around the league as a gym rat. Even Kenny Smith brought it up the other night.

You don’t just improve your 3pt shot in a matter of months. That’s outrageous. lol. Pascal is taking much easier 3s now with more of them being assisted.

[RoteSchroder]

Post-Kawhi, what were the serious opportunities to add depth which would have made a material difference?

We lost Kawhi (which we knew was going to happen). We gave up 3 players and a 2nd rounder in 2024 to get Marc Gasol. We gave up Demar, Poetl, a 2019 1st for Danny Green. We'd given up Ross and a 2017 1st rounder for Ibaka.

Poeltl was our 2016 pick. We got OG late in 2017. Our first in 2020 was 29th overall, and we picked Malachi Flynn. We sucked in 2021 and that turned into Scottie. We didn't have a first in 2022, but had bounced back to 48 wins and took Gradey Dick with the 13th overall pick in the 2023 draft. We got a first in the 2024 draft in the Pascal trade, and it turned into Ja'Kobe Walter. We got RJ, Quick, Mogbo (a 2nd round pick) and a trade exception in the OG deal.

Somewhere in there, you're expecting us to have done what? Shy of sell-out tanking, I mean.

Like, sometimes, there are only so many options available to our team, especially based on the needs we had and how guys were performing at the time.

It's important to realize that GMs aren't actually wizards, right? Like, they make mistakes, they miss on stuff, some good ideas don't pan out, management policy interferes... but they can't fabricate opportunities out of nothing. For us to have taken any further steps, we'd have needed a player who didn't really emerge as available to us in that time period. Figuring out that it was time to turn it around wasn't incorrect, even if we don't love the details of how that happened.

That said, we could have tried carrying that out to its logical extension and making what we could of what opportunities arose. That's essentially what we're going to do now, it seems.

just a series of bad luck + going for the wrong players

1. We needed a C and targeted Koloko instead of just getting Kessler (Andrew Nembhard would have also been very useful)
2. Desmond Bane's T-rex arms probably led to us not drafting him and we got Flynn instead
3. Not sure why we just didn't want to pay Powell.
4. Giving the keys to Barnes without him having proven anything, also a mistake imo
5. Basically got nothing useful for Lowry

Probably enough to compete this year if we grabbed a back-up PG from a trade or FA signing. Davion off the bench would have been good.

Kessler / Edey (or other)
Siakam / Scottie
OG
Bane / Powell
FVV / Davion

Team dropped down in the draft for cap flexibility. Kessler has helped anchor one of the worst teams in basketball. He can’t shoot, can’t pass and can’t guard out on the perimeter.

Bane was a tough one but he was drafted in the late 1st round. These misses happen all the time.

Powell was 30 years old.

How do we get Edey in this? We can’t just add players we had no chance to get to our team. lol.

We don't have Poeltl here. You can replace the 2024 pick with Poeltl if you want

Raptors have also been trash for the past few years, it doesn't make every player on the roster useless.

[PushDaRock]

1. We needed a C and targeted Koloko instead of just getting Kessler (Andrew Nembhard would have also been very useful)
2. Desmond Bane's T-rex arms probably led to us not drafting him and we got Flynn instead
3. Not sure why we just didn't want to pay Powell.

Kessler would have been really nice, or Nembhard, yes. Flynn was garbage and Bane would have been considerably better, although he did kind of overlap with OG, so prior to him playing, I can kind of get behind the thought.

4. Giving the keys to Barnes without him having proven anything, also a mistake imo
5. Basically got nothing useful for Lowry

Yeah, going to Barnes as a focal piece was very odd and diametrically opposed to his scouting reports and what he'd been showing us.

Lowry was 34 and had just played 65, 58 and 46 games, so I don't know what offers would have been there for him at the time which would have been anything. We got Precious, Goran Dragic and a trade exception for him. Don't know that there would have been better offers on the table. Dragic, of course, was a huge flop and was out of the league shortly thereafter.

Lowry also didn't want to be moved in the Tampa season, the team wasn't going to trade him against his wishes. We didn't get a bad haul for him considering the circumstances, Achiuwa just didn't work out.

[Los_29]

just a series of bad luck + going for the wrong players

1. We needed a C and targeted Koloko instead of just getting Kessler (Andrew Nembhard would have also been very useful)
2. Desmond Bane's T-rex arms probably led to us not drafting him and we got Flynn instead
3. Not sure why we just didn't want to pay Powell.
4. Giving the keys to Barnes without him having proven anything, also a mistake imo
5. Basically got nothing useful for Lowry

Probably enough to compete this year if we grabbed a back-up PG from a trade or FA signing. Davion off the bench would have been good.

Kessler / Edey (or other)
Siakam / Scottie
OG
Bane / Powell
FVV / Davion

Team dropped down in the draft for cap flexibility. Kessler has helped anchor one of the worst teams in basketball. He can’t shoot, can’t pass and can’t guard out on the perimeter.

Bane was a tough one but he was drafted in the late 1st round. These misses happen all the time.

Powell was 30 years old.

How do we get Edey in this? We can’t just add players we had no chance to get to our team. lol.

We don't have Poeltl here. You can replace the 2024 pick with Poeltl if you want

Raptors have also been trash for the past few years, it doesn't make every player on the roster useless.

Bane was drafted in 2020. Kessler was drafted in 2022. Powell would still be on our team.

So you’re basically telling me we’d still be a lottery team with those players in addition to Pascal, OG, FVV and then Scottie off the bench. Lol.

[RoteSchroder]

Team dropped down in the draft for cap flexibility. Kessler has helped anchor one of the worst teams in basketball. He can’t shoot, can’t pass and can’t guard out on the perimeter.

Bane was a tough one but he was drafted in the late 1st round. These misses happen all the time.

Powell was 30 years old.

How do we get Edey in this? We can’t just add players we had no chance to get to our team. lol.

We don't have Poeltl here. You can replace the 2024 pick with Poeltl if you want

Raptors have also been trash for the past few years, it doesn't make every player on the roster useless.

Bane was drafted in 2020. Kessler was drafted in 2022. Powell would still be on our team.

So you’re basically telling me we’d still be a lottery team with those players in addition to Pascal, OG, FVV and then Scottie off the bench. Lol.

Bane was the 30th pick and Powell was still on our team.

Kessler was drafted 22nd..Raptors also had a pretty good year and had the 20th pick, don't think Powell really makes a difference. I mean..if we didn't draft Kessler, Raptors were rumoured to like Nembhard, which is even better imo.

That makes only the Edey selection questionable, to which the Poeltl trade may have still been viable.

[Los_29]

We don't have Poeltl here. You can replace the 2024 pick with Poeltl if you want

Raptors have also been trash for the past few years, it doesn't make every player on the roster useless.

Bane was drafted in 2020. Kessler was drafted in 2022. Powell would still be on our team.

So you’re basically telling me we’d still be a lottery team with those players in addition to Pascal, OG, FVV and then Scottie off the bench. Lol.

Bane was the 30th pick and Powell was still on our team.

Kessler was drafted 22nd..Raptors also had a pretty good year and had the 20th pick, don't think Powell really makes a difference. I mean..if we didn't draft Kessler, Raptors were rumoured to like Nembhard, which is even better imo.

That makes only the Edey selection questionable, to which the Poeltl trade may have still been viable.

So you’re saying our team would’ve sucked anyway then. I thought you were saying that Masai missed opportunities to build depth. Sorry I misunderstood.

I think Bane would’ve definitely made us better. Not a huge fan of Kessler but he would’ve been a big upgrade over the guys we’ve had over the years aside from Poeltl.

Bane and Kessler/Nembhard would’ve taken us out of the lottery and middle of the pack. Well out of the range for Edey.

And if all of these guys still result in our team sucking then aren’t we in a better position not having to pay all of these guys? Looks like we dodged a bullet.

Either way, every team in the league can play this game. OKC could have an even better team had they drafted better. But they seem to be doing just fine right now.

[RoteSchroder]

Bane was drafted in 2020. Kessler was drafted in 2022. Powell would still be on our team.

So you’re basically telling me we’d still be a lottery team with those players in addition to Pascal, OG, FVV and then Scottie off the bench. Lol.

Bane was the 30th pick and Powell was still on our team.

Kessler was drafted 22nd..Raptors also had a pretty good year and had the 20th pick, don't think Powell really makes a difference. I mean..if we didn't draft Kessler, Raptors were rumoured to like Nembhard, which is even better imo.

That makes only the Edey selection questionable, to which the Poeltl trade may have still been viable.

So you’re saying our team would’ve sucked anyway then. I thought you were saying that Masai missed opportunities to build depth. Sorry I misunderstood.

I think Bane would’ve definitely made us better. Not a huge fan of Kessler but he would’ve been a big upgrade over the guys we’ve had over the years aside from Poeltl.

Bane and Kessler/Nembhard would’ve taken us out of the lottery and middle of the pack. Well out of the range for Edey.

And if all of these guys still result in our team sucking then aren’t we in a better position not having to pay all of these guys? Looks like we dodged a bullet.

Either way, every team in the league can play this game. OKC could have an even better team had they drafted better. But they seem to be doing just fine right now.

I mean..it's up to you to decide whether that end result is a good line-up. I don't really care if you like some of the guys or not, or if you're hung up on Edey (considering I said "or other" AND gave an option for the Poeltl trade). It's just not that big of a deal.

It's hard to say where we go exactly in the draft given we also need to consider injuries and lottery luck, but at the very least Bane and Kessler/Nembhard while keeping Powell would have been viable hindsight moves.

Realistically, we wouldn't be able to keep it together anyways given the contracts FVV and OG demanded.

[Los_29]

Bane was the 30th pick and Powell was still on our team.

Kessler was drafted 22nd..Raptors also had a pretty good year and had the 20th pick, don't think Powell really makes a difference. I mean..if we didn't draft Kessler, Raptors were rumoured to like Nembhard, which is even better imo.

That makes only the Edey selection questionable, to which the Poeltl trade may have still been viable.

So you’re saying our team would’ve sucked anyway then. I thought you were saying that Masai missed opportunities to build depth. Sorry I misunderstood.

I think Bane would’ve definitely made us better. Not a huge fan of Kessler but he would’ve been a big upgrade over the guys we’ve had over the years aside from Poeltl.

Bane and Kessler/Nembhard would’ve taken us out of the lottery and middle of the pack. Well out of the range for Edey.

And if all of these guys still result in our team sucking then aren’t we in a better position not having to pay all of these guys? Looks like we dodged a bullet.

Either way, every team in the league can play this game. OKC could have an even better team had they drafted better. But they seem to be doing just fine right now.

I mean..it's up to you to decide whether that end result is a good line-up. I don't really care if you like some of the guys or not, or if you're hung up on Edey (considering I said "or other" AND gave an option for the Poeltl trade). It's just not that big of a deal.

It's hard to say where we go exactly in the draft given we also need to consider injuries and lottery luck, but at the very least Bane and Kessler/Nembhard while keeping Powell would have been viable hindsight moves.

Realistically, we wouldn't be able to keep it together anyways given the contracts FVV and OG demanded.

We wouldn’t have been able to keep them together. You’re right. It’s also debatable we don’t have Scottie if we end up drafting Bane. Bane was certainly better than Flynn in their rookie years. It’s not crazy to think with Bane we win a couple more games. If that happens then we are picking from 9-11.

But like I said, we can play this game with every team. Unfortunately, no one makes the best possible move every time.

Team went all-in for the championship and then lost Kawhi and Green. Then the following year they lost Ibaka and Gasol. Then the following year they lost Lowry. These guys (Lowry, Ibaka, Green, Gasol) were all at the end of their careers.

You just can’t easily replenish that much depth quickly. It was always going to take a long time. We’ve just been so spoiled with Masai that we thought he would just be able to repeat his draft masterclass from 2015-2017.

[mdenny]

Bane was the 30th pick and Powell was still on our team.

Kessler was drafted 22nd..Raptors also had a pretty good year and had the 20th pick, don't think Powell really makes a difference. I mean..if we didn't draft Kessler, Raptors were rumoured to like Nembhard, which is even better imo.

That makes only the Edey selection questionable, to which the Poeltl trade may have still been viable.

So you’re saying our team would’ve sucked anyway then. I thought you were saying that Masai missed opportunities to build depth. Sorry I misunderstood.

I think Bane would’ve definitely made us better. Not a huge fan of Kessler but he would’ve been a big upgrade over the guys we’ve had over the years aside from Poeltl.

Bane and Kessler/Nembhard would’ve taken us out of the lottery and middle of the pack. Well out of the range for Edey.

And if all of these guys still result in our team sucking then aren’t we in a better position not having to pay all of these guys? Looks like we dodged a bullet.

Either way, every team in the league can play this game. OKC could have an even better team had they drafted better. But they seem to be doing just fine right now.

I mean..it's up to you to decide whether that end result is a good line-up. I don't really care if you like some of the guys or not, or if you're hung up on Edey (considering I said "or other" AND gave an option for the Poeltl trade). It's just not that big of a deal.

It's hard to say where we go exactly in the draft given we also need to consider injuries and lottery luck, but at the very least Bane and Kessler/Nembhard while keeping Powell would have been viable hindsight moves.

Realistically, we wouldn't be able to keep it together anyways given the contracts FVV and OG demanded.

You are playing the dumbest game imaginable which is the "what if we could redraft" game.

Los is right. Literally every team in the league could be a chip team now if you replace every player they have drafted the past 10 years with the most optimal one in hindsight.

Not only would this path lead to EVERY team winning a chip (if they owned time machines)...it would also mean that each one of the 30 teams would become 4 to 6 year dynasties if they had picked the most optimal player in every draft.

It's like saying "I would be a billionaire if I just would have predicted the roulette wheel outcome consistently".

[RoteSchroder]

So you’re saying our team would’ve sucked anyway then. I thought you were saying that Masai missed opportunities to build depth. Sorry I misunderstood.

I think Bane would’ve definitely made us better. Not a huge fan of Kessler but he would’ve been a big upgrade over the guys we’ve had over the years aside from Poeltl.

Bane and Kessler/Nembhard would’ve taken us out of the lottery and middle of the pack. Well out of the range for Edey.

And if all of these guys still result in our team sucking then aren’t we in a better position not having to pay all of these guys? Looks like we dodged a bullet.

Either way, every team in the league can play this game. OKC could have an even better team had they drafted better. But they seem to be doing just fine right now.

I mean..it's up to you to decide whether that end result is a good line-up. I don't really care if you like some of the guys or not, or if you're hung up on Edey (considering I said "or other" AND gave an option for the Poeltl trade). It's just not that big of a deal.

It's hard to say where we go exactly in the draft given we also need to consider injuries and lottery luck, but at the very least Bane and Kessler/Nembhard while keeping Powell would have been viable hindsight moves.

Realistically, we wouldn't be able to keep it together anyways given the contracts FVV and OG demanded.

You are playing the dumbest game imaginable which is the "what if we could redraft" game.

Los is right. Literally every team in the league could be a chip team now if you replace every player they have drafted the past 10 years with the most optimal one in hindsight.

Not only would this path lead to EVERY team winning a chip (if they owned time machines)...it would also mean that each one of the 30 teams would become 4 to 6 year dynasties if they had picked the most optimal player in every draft.

It's like saying "I would be a billionaire if I just would have predicted the roulette wheel outcome consistently".

The question was what were some serious opportunities to add depth.

The answer sure as hell isn't "I'm butthurt and sensitive, so I'll just whine about someone listing possibilities in hindsight"

[Los_29]

I mean..it's up to you to decide whether that end result is a good line-up. I don't really care if you like some of the guys or not, or if you're hung up on Edey (considering I said "or other" AND gave an option for the Poeltl trade). It's just not that big of a deal.

It's hard to say where we go exactly in the draft given we also need to consider injuries and lottery luck, but at the very least Bane and Kessler/Nembhard while keeping Powell would have been viable hindsight moves.

Realistically, we wouldn't be able to keep it together anyways given the contracts FVV and OG demanded.

You are playing the dumbest game imaginable which is the "what if we could redraft" game.

Los is right. Literally every team in the league could be a chip team now if you replace every player they have drafted the past 10 years with the most optimal one in hindsight.

Not only would this path lead to EVERY team winning a chip (if they owned time machines)...it would also mean that each one of the 30 teams would become 4 to 6 year dynasties if they had picked the most optimal player in every draft.

It's like saying "I would be a billionaire if I just would have predicted the roulette wheel outcome consistently".

The question was what were some serious opportunities to add depth.

The answer sure as hell isn't "I'm butthurt and sensitive, so I'll just whine about someone listing possibilities in hindsight"

I was more concerned with the fact you inserted all of the guys we missed out on and still had us in the lottery getting Edey. Literally in the same position we were in without the added depth.

Do you not see what’s wrong with that?

[RoteSchroder]

You are playing the dumbest game imaginable which is the "what if we could redraft" game.

Los is right. Literally every team in the league could be a chip team now if you replace every player they have drafted the past 10 years with the most optimal one in hindsight.

Not only would this path lead to EVERY team winning a chip (if they owned time machines)...it would also mean that each one of the 30 teams would become 4 to 6 year dynasties if they had picked the most optimal player in every draft.

It's like saying "I would be a billionaire if I just would have predicted the roulette wheel outcome consistently".

The question was what were some serious opportunities to add depth.

The answer sure as hell isn't "I'm butthurt and sensitive, so I'll just whine about someone listing possibilities in hindsight"

I was more concerned with the fact you inserted all of the guys we missed out on and still had us in the lottery getting Edey. Literally in the same position we were in without the added depth.

Do you not see what’s wrong with that?

yeah..and that's why I said "or other". Not sure why I need to keep repeating myself. Poeltl is actually a better depth piece than Edey. So it's not a big concern at all. We technically should get even better in that case. It was also a pretty flat draft. Ja'Kobe could turn out to be better than Edey for all we know, it's just at the time we needed a C so Edey was high in everyone's wishlist.

All in all, it's not even the slightest big of a deal. We don't even necessarily end up with a great roster and the team becomes unaffordable. So there's was no reason for mdenny to get butthurt.

I'm wondering if the mdenny is some sort of weird chatbot considering the last time we were talking about draft prospects that dude was going nuts on how we were perverts looking at young men.