OT - Shai the Greatest Canadian NBA Player if he wins a chip?

[CPT]

I’m a huge Nash guy, but Shai doesn’t even need the title IMO.

He’s just better than Nash ever was. MVP is what it is, but Nash was never in the conversation for “this guy is the best player in the league.” Most people would have Jokic as the clear #1, but he’s definitely in the mix for #2. Nash was just not on that level, even in his best years.

[MessiahUjiri]

Also, it remains very important to understand the difference between "leads in PPG" and "first option" in the more general sense. Watching the games, you'd get a clearer sense of how that team functioned, for sure. And as you said, the playoffs showed some other things as well.

You can cherry pick Nash’s best year, and even then, Amare was the number one option, averaging ~30ppg.

Just because Nash was creating the offense as a PG doesn’t make him a number one scoring option. The comparison here is between Nash and SGA.

You’re being pedantic if you think guys like Nash, Scottie Barnes or Chris Paul are number one scoring options.

Anyone with a clear mind will understand that Shai is a true number one scoring option in a way that Steve Nash never was. To insist that Nash was a similar scoring threat is clearly wrong.

Amare never averaged 30ppg.

He averaged 26ppg in 2005, missed the entire 2006 season, averaged 20ppg in 2007, 25ppg in 2008 etc.

Nevertheless, someone mentioned Nash in 2006, Amare was injured that entire season and Nash averaged nearly 20ppg on low volume and led the Suns to the conference finals.

Nash was also the guy who routinely closed games for the Suns, Amare was pretty raw offensively, especially in the mid-2000s, and was an incredible pick and roll finisher and explosive monster around the rim.

I don't think anyone here is arguing Nash is a better scorer than SGA...there is no doubt that SGA is the better scorer, but Nash's scoring is significantly underrated.

You literally said Nash averaged 24 ppg in the 2005 playoffs.

I pointed out that Amare averaged 30ppg in the same team.

check yo self


https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2005.html

[MessiahUjiri]

You can cherry pick Nash’s best year, and even then, Amare was the number one option, averaging ~30ppg.

Amare wasn't playing in 2006.

Just because Nash was creating the offense as a PG doesn’t make him a number one scoring option. The comparison here is between Nash and SGA.

He was still the focal option on offense, though. There is a difference between number one option and highest scoring player, which was my point.

You’re being pedantic if you think guys like Nash, Scottie Barnes or Chris Paul are number one scoring options.

No, you aren't discerning the difference between "number one option" or "offensive focus" and "number one scoring option."

Anyone with a clear mind will understand that Shai is a true number one scoring option in a way that Steve Nash never was. To insist that Nash was a similar scoring threat is clearly wrong.

Yes, Shai is obviously much different as a scorer compared to Nash, I didn't say otherwise. That was your weird inference. You said "number 1 option" and didn't specify that you only wanted to discuss volume scoring output, and the piece I quoted said nothing about Shai at all. That's your mistake.

But Nash is also a better scorer than most people realize, as he showed in the playoffs, and a CONSIDERABLY superior playmaker, which changes things around some. He could and did elevate his scoring when he needed to. Not to 30 ppg overall a whole season, obviously, but that was never the point. His offensive impact was immense, which is what makes this an interesting discussion. The fact that Shai is a higher-volume scorer than Nash isn't the end of that discussion, either.

Do you think Jason Kidd was a number one option too?

Your definition of number one option is different from mine.

Don’t need to gaslight anyone by saying a former retired player was a better scorer than he was, by saying “he scored when it mattered”. That sounds like Shaq saying he makes free throws when they matter.


Nash played for a long time, and he was never a great scorer. These are facts. He was a very underrated shooter, but he was just not wired in the Mamba mentality.

[kalel123]

I picked no because I feel like he's on that path with or without a championship if he isn't there already. So he doesn't need to win the championship to be the greatest Canadian NBA Player.

[TheGeneral99]

You can cherry pick Nash’s best year, and even then, Amare was the number one option, averaging ~30ppg.

Just because Nash was creating the offense as a PG doesn’t make him a number one scoring option. The comparison here is between Nash and SGA.

You’re being pedantic if you think guys like Nash, Scottie Barnes or Chris Paul are number one scoring options.

Anyone with a clear mind will understand that Shai is a true number one scoring option in a way that Steve Nash never was. To insist that Nash was a similar scoring threat is clearly wrong.

Amare never averaged 30ppg.

He averaged 26ppg in 2005, missed the entire 2006 season, averaged 20ppg in 2007, 25ppg in 2008 etc.

Nevertheless, someone mentioned Nash in 2006, Amare was injured that entire season and Nash averaged nearly 20ppg on low volume and led the Suns to the conference finals.

Nash was also the guy who routinely closed games for the Suns, Amare was pretty raw offensively, especially in the mid-2000s, and was an incredible pick and roll finisher and explosive monster around the rim.

I don't think anyone here is arguing Nash is a better scorer than SGA...there is no doubt that SGA is the better scorer, but Nash's scoring is significantly underrated.

You literally said Nash averaged 24 ppg in the 2005 playoffs.

I pointed out that Amare averaged 30ppg in the same team.

check yo self


https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2005.html

Okay? You never even said it was only for the playoffs.

But now look at Amare again, he averaged 25ppg in the 2007 playoffs, 23ppg in 2008, 22ppg in 2010...all similar to his season averages.

Nash was someone who could have easily averaged well over 20ppg and was the closer for the Suns, those are the facts.

[JShuttlesworth]

Nash was never number 1 option good.

2006 Suns called and asked you to revise your opinion.

Wrong. Even then, Marion was the number one option when Amare went down.

Nash never cracked 20ppg even once. Guys like CP3 and Nash are not number one scoring options, despite being all time great floor generals.

Comments like this make me laugh

Just because Nash wasn't the highest scorer doesn't mean he wasn't the first option. He's a passer. Give Nash the ball and let him decide what the best thing to do with it is, that's what a first option is...

[Anticon]

I'll always be biased to Nash and think in many ways Steve was a more skilled player. Nash absolutely deserves those MVPs even if players like Duncan, Wade, and Shaq merited consideration as well.

I don't think people realize how incredible the Suns were in those first three years of seven seconds or less.

But Shai as MVP with a title is a lock, impossible to argue with.

[tsherkin]

Do you think Jason Kidd was a number one option too?

He certainly was.

Your definition of number one option is different from mine.

The common definition of "number one option" isn't "leading scorer," it's the focus of a team's offense. If one guy is primarily thriving on assisted buckets and scores a few extra points compared to the guy running the show, that's not a first option, that's a guy scoring a few more points which were primarily created by the offense's focal engine.

Using Marion as an example of a number option option is gongshow-level stuff, because he wasn't primarily generating his own offense. With Amare, there's at least the argument that he was a highly-capable isolation scorer on his own, but Marion was like James Worthy without the post game. No one sane would confuse Worthy for LA's first option because he outscored Magic in 1986, for example. Nor would they confuse Jamaal Wilkes for being higher in the offensive pecking order because he took more FGA/g than Magic the year prior.

Context matters.

Don’t need to gaslight anyone by saying a former retired player was a better scorer than he was, by saying “he scored when it mattered”. That sounds like Shaq saying he makes free throws when they matter.

I didn't gaslight anyone, you're being melodramatic because you made a mistake, that's all.

Nash played for a long time, and he was never a great scorer. These are facts. He was a very underrated shooter, but he was just not wired in the Mamba mentality.

Your definition of "great" is interesting. He's one of the few 50/40/90 guys out there up to his point in the league. What you mean is "he didn't score in huge volume," which isn't the same thing... and is obvious, given how many of his possessions on which he was passing off to others for high-efficiency buckets.

[OakleyDokely]

Steve Nash was insane and still somewhat underrated. He nearly average 50/40/90 for his CAREER (49/43/90).

But I think I'd give it to Shai because he's a more well rounded player, when you include the defensive side of the game.

[tsherkin]

Steve Nash was insane and still somewhat underrated. He nearly average 50/40/90 for his CAREER (49/43/90).

But I think I'd give it to Shai because he's a more well rounded player, when you include the defensive side of the game.

Yeah, I mean, Shai has the MVP. He's got a scoring title, he's taken the Thunder to the Finals. He's got a 3-year run, which is close to Nash's peak run before age and his back issues started to catch up with him.

I think if he actually wins the title, then it's a very strong argument. Obviously, we still have to weigh how roster value and team achievement are evaluated in asymmetrical situations, though. The Thunder have a much better overall team than the Suns did, and the Horry incident notwithstanding, the Suns were looking pretty good in 2007.

It becomes an interesting back and forth about volume scoring versus volume playmaking with situational scoring, in any case. And regardless of one's opinion, it's nice to have a vigorous debate about who is better, because suddenly we actually have the options from which to choose.

[canada_dry]

I think yes. Add a poll.

Nash was never number 1 option good.

Thats an insane thing to say...

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[canada_dry]

Nash was never number 1 option good.

2006 Suns called and asked you to revise your opinion.

And 2005, and 2007, etc etc...

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[canada_dry]

I’m a huge Nash guy, but Shai doesn’t even need the title IMO.

He’s just better than Nash ever was. MVP is what it is, but Nash was never in the conversation for “this guy is the best player in the league.” Most people would have Jokic as the clear #1, but he’s definitely in the mix for #2. Nash was just not on that level, even in his best years.

This is what makes nash underrated by even canadians. I know you're a nash guy, but yes nash was in those best player conversations during his mvp years. The (Kobe) FANS didn't really like the fact that he was, but he was. He went band for band with all the contenders for "best player" in the playoffs after already arguably having had a better season than them and held his own against them during that 3 year stretch. Kobe. Duncan. Dirk. Whoever. Didn't get the chance to play a shaq or wade but i imagine it would have been much the same.

SGA peaks higher yes. But its not because "nash as good as he was, was never in those conversations or at that level". Thats Absolutely selling him short.

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[tsherkin]

I’m a huge Nash guy, but Shai doesn’t even need the title IMO.

He’s just better than Nash ever was. MVP is what it is, but Nash was never in the conversation for “this guy is the best player in the league.” Most people would have Jokic as the clear #1, but he’s definitely in the mix for #2. Nash was just not on that level, even in his best years.

This is what makes nash underrated by even canadians. I know you're a nash guy, but yes nash was in those best player conversations during his mvp years. The (Kobe) FANS didn't really like the fact that he was, but he was. He went band for band with all the contenders in the playoffs and held his own against them during that 3 year stretch. Kobe. Duncan. Dirk. Whoever.

SGA peaks higher yes. But its not because "nash as good as he was, was never in those conversations ". Thats Absolutely selling him short.

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It's the sort of comment not even worth engaging with; Nash was crapped on at the time because people like PPGz. He doesn't get his legit due as a result. It's hard for people to process the value of what someone like Nash was doing, because they see a guy scoring under 20 ppg and posting volume APG and assume it's Rondo or Mark Jackson level play, which of course is wretchedly inaccurate.

[CPT]

I’m a huge Nash guy, but Shai doesn’t even need the title IMO.

He’s just better than Nash ever was. MVP is what it is, but Nash was never in the conversation for “this guy is the best player in the league.” Most people would have Jokic as the clear #1, but he’s definitely in the mix for #2. Nash was just not on that level, even in his best years.

This is what makes nash underrated by even canadians. I know you're a nash guy, but yes nash was in those best player conversations during his mvp years. The (Kobe) FANS didn't really like the fact that he was, but he was. He went band for band with all the contenders in the playoffs and held his own against them during that 3 year stretch. Kobe. Duncan. Dirk. Whoever.

SGA peaks higher yes. But its not because "nash as good as he was, was never in those conversations ". Thats Absolutely selling him short.

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It's the sort of comment not even worth engaging with; Nash was crapped on at the time because people like PPGz. He doesn't get his legit due as a result. It's hard for people to process the value of what someone like Nash was doing, because they see a guy scoring under 20 ppg and posting volume APG and assume it's Rondo or Mark Jackson level play, which of course is wretchedly inaccurate.

???

I just don’t think anybody was really making the argument that he was better than or even in that Duncan, KG, Kobe… Dirk(?) tier at that time.

I’d buy the argument that maybe he should have been, but the way I remember it, he just wasn’t in those conversations to the level Shai is right now.

Maybe those conversations are just so different now (Jokic vs tier 2), or maybe they’re just so much louder due to podcasts, talking head sound bytes, etc, but “I think Steve Nash is the (second) best player in the NBA” just wasn’t a thing people were saying, was it?

[tsherkin]

I just don’t think anybody was really making the argument that he was better than or even in that Duncan, KG, Kobe… Dirk(?) tier at that time.

I’d buy the argument that maybe he should have been, but the way I remember it, he just wasn’t in those conversations to the level Shai is right now.

Maybe those conversations are just so different now (Jokic vs tier 2), or maybe they’re just so much louder due to podcasts, talking head sound bytes, etc, but “I think Steve Nash is the (second) best player in the NBA” just wasn’t a thing people were saying, was it?

Perhaps I misunderstood you, because I'm generally annoyed with the discourse of the time. I thought you meant he didn't MERIT those discussions.

Because you're right, all people were generally doing at the time was bitching that Kobe didn't win an MVP and spitting on Nash for not being a volume scorer, etc. It was quite irritating at the time.

But Shai fits the public model because of PPGz, so he's more accepted.

[CPT]

I just don’t think anybody was really making the argument that he was better than or even in that Duncan, KG, Kobe… Dirk(?) tier at that time.

I’d buy the argument that maybe he should have been, but the way I remember it, he just wasn’t in those conversations to the level Shai is right now.

Maybe those conversations are just so different now (Jokic vs tier 2), or maybe they’re just so much louder due to podcasts, talking head sound bytes, etc, but “I think Steve Nash is the (second) best player in the NBA” just wasn’t a thing people were saying, was it?

Perhaps I misunderstood you, because I'm generally annoyed with the discourse of the time. I thought you meant he didn't MERIT those discussions.

Because you're right, all people were generally doing at the time was bitching that Kobe didn't win an MVP and spitting on Nash for not being a volume scorer, etc. It was quite irritating at the time.

But Shai fits the public model because of PPGz, so he's more accepted.

That’s fair. I absolutely believe he deserved his MVPs, and I’ve got lots of time for “Kobe was overrated” arguments, especially as pertaining to individual seasons. I also don’t think Kobe was ever *the best* player in the league, but that’s another discussion.

Even then, “Nash is having a better season than Kobe” is meaningfully different from “Nash is better than Kobe.”

I should be giving Nash more credit in this discussion (vs SGA) for his extended peak, as it’s probably closer than I’m presenting it right now, but I think SGA will pull away in years to come, title or not.

[tsherkin]

Even then, “Nash is having a better season than Kobe” is meaningfully different from “Nash is better than Kobe.”

Yes. On an all-time scale, things are different between the two because the relevant portion of Nash's career is perhaps a half-decade long, maybe a little longer if you love some of his longevity seasons with Phoenix. And Kobe had more like a dozen relevant seasons at his high end.

I should be giving Nash more credit in this discussion (vs SGA) for his extended peak, as it’s probably closer than I’m presenting it right now, but I think SGA will pull away in years to come, title or not.

I also suspect SGA will pull away more cleanly over time. I'm not even specifically arguing that Nash is the better Canadian player
now, so much as against the perception that it isn't even a discussion.

[TravisScott55]

He already is

[Brinbe]

I think he's already there. Steve was/is a legend but Shai has hit a higher ceiling as a player and is a way better defender.