Fortune Teller wrote:No one is saying defense isn't important, but it's inarguable that the Magic have a good defense and nothing else. Bottom 10 in offense all 8 years of Jeff's tenure, I believe bottom 3 the past few years, and the worst 3-point shooting team in the league by a significant margin. That is the context of the Isaac debate, which is not held in a vacuum. No matter how economical you think his deal is because of injury protections and guarantees, it's money that could've been spent on something the team actually needs. If you just look at 2024-25 -- an objectively garbage season for JI -- he made at least $25 million to do absolutely nothing even though he was "healthy". Yes, that was the healthy JI we've all been waiting for, and what value did we get from the highest-paid player on the roster? And this past season wasn't an anomaly, he's gone consecutive seasons not even suiting up once while being paid in full. So big picture, why keep throwing money at him? We really couldn't have used that money some other way last season? Oh but it's only $15 mil next season...so what? There's not a better way to spend $15 mil on something we actually need? Not to mention that he's getting worse, not better, and despite actually being able to play the past two seasons is still on minutes restrictions and useless in the playoffs. There are utility players all across the league who make a fraction of what Isaac makes and contribute twice as much.
Jeff definitely missed Economics class on the days they taught the concepts of "diminishing returns" and "return on investment".
Fortune Teller wrote:No one is saying defense isn't important, but it's inarguable that the Magic have a good defense and nothing else. Bottom 10 in offense all 8 years of Jeff's tenure, I believe bottom 3 the past few years, and the worst 3-point shooting team in the league by a significant margin. That is the context of the Isaac debate, which is not held in a vacuum. No matter how economical you think his deal is because of injury protections and guarantees, it's money that could've been spent on something the team actually needs. If you just look at 2024-25 -- an objectively garbage season for JI -- he made at least $25 million to do absolutely nothing even though he was "healthy". Yes, that was the healthy JI we've all been waiting for, and what value did we get from the highest-paid player on the roster? And this past season wasn't an anomaly, he's gone consecutive seasons not even suiting up once while being paid in full. So big picture, why keep throwing money at him? We really couldn't have used that money some other way last season? Oh but it's only $15 mil next season...so what? There's not a better way to spend $15 mil on something we actually need? Not to mention that he's getting worse, not better, and despite actually being able to play the past two seasons is still on minutes restrictions and useless in the playoffs. There are utility players all across the league who make a fraction of what Isaac makes and contribute twice as much.
Jeff definitely missed Economics class on the days they taught the concepts of "diminishing returns" and "return on investment".
...but he's off to a strong start, some of which could be considered undoing previous mistakes.
More to come. I am hopeful but he's got more to do - a lot more, imo, around the edges to complete this roster in a smarter, more sustainable, balanced form.
Wow 30 pages of Fire Weltman thread and not 1 other comment about what a good job he's done this summer. This was our last chance to push our chips in before we become a 2nd apron team next year and Weltman pulled off a trade beyond all our expectations and predictions. After that he pulls off the draft by selecting someone at 25 we were interested in picking at 16, then being aggressive in the 2nd he trades up to select someone we were considering with the 25th pick. He rounds out Free Agency by picking up Tyus Jones who we've all been screaming for the last 2 years. I've also been critical of Weltman in this thread, but we really need to give Weltman his flowers for what he's done this offseason. I didn't think he had it in him, but man was I wrong. Patience may be a virtue.
CocoaFan wrote:Wow 30 pages of Fire Weltman thread and not 1 other comment about what a good job he's done this summer. This was our last chance to push our chips in before we become a 2nd apron team next year and Weltman pulled off a trade beyond all our expectations and predictions. After that he pulls off the draft by selecting someone at 25 we were interested in picking at 16, then being aggressive in the 2nd he trades up to select someone we were considering with the 25th pick. He rounds out Free Agency by picking up Tyus Jones who we've all been screaming for the last 2 years. I've also been critical of Weltman in this thread, but we really need to give Weltman his flowers for what he's done this offseason. I didn't think he had it in him, but man was I wrong. Patience may be a virtue.
On paper I think this is the best team we've had since Dwight Howard thought he was better than us (turns out he regrets it now).
- Orlando Ownership hire an outside consulting firm to help evaluate FO hires after Hennigan's FO run. They end up getting a FO that includes like four former GM's all in one building. And a fifth GM with Anthony Parker today, a former scout for ORL.
- Drafted Paolo Banchero #1 when it was not obvious to do it. For example, I was not interested in following the draft and NBA in these terrible Magic years, and I based like 75% of my choice on what you guys were saying about the draft in the board here, which guess what, was Jabari Smith or Chet Holmgren. Thanks guys.
At this point, the Weltman FO is already safe. And interestingly enough, the ratio of NBA fans who think Paolo is going to be a top 10 player in the league is seemingly higher than the ratio of Magic fans who think the same on this board. In here, we get to read "Ohhh, but look at these super advanced stats on Paolo in these regular season games." And then a whole lot of silence about Paolo's two Playoffs series so far.
- Traded Nikola Vucevic for a much younger center, Wendell Carter Jr., and 1st round picks turning into Franz Wagner and Jett Howard. A lot of complaining about Jett Howard without remembering he was a trade-acquired pick playing with house money after using one on Franz Wagner.
If you don't like the Weltman FO after this, on Franz Wagner alone, and as a trade-acquired pick, and enough to give them some leeway for the zombie-level FO activity during Paolo, Franz, and Suggs' developmental seasons, then I don't know what to say.
- Drafted Jalen Suggs #5 and Franz Wagner #8 in the same draft. I would take Cade Cunningham over Suggs, but Cade was the #1 pick. So I can't really find anyone selected after Suggs #5 and Franz #8 that I would take over them today, in the 55 draft picks between/after them. Let that statement sink in. Pull up their draft and dare to speak. If you think you can pick on Suggs particularly, and win a "Who was better to draft?" over him, an All-NBA 2nd Defensive Team guard already, by talking about injuries instead of on the court 2-way impact, then that is a bad start. Also, here's one more fun exercise. The Weltman FO home run slammed the #5 and #8 picks way more than any other #5 and #8 same draft pairing together. Do you dare to even try and find a better #5 and #8 pairing from other drafts? In the meantime, this board was complaining super hard about Franz Wagner on his draft night selection, and as if the #8 pick magically appeared on their armchair GM laps without this FO getting it via trade.
- BOS Celtics waive Mo Wagner in the middle of a season. Not a lot of action biting on Mo Wagner. But FO picks him up and he has been a crowd favorite for a few seasons nows, and a top 3 6MOTY candidate last season before injury. Guess who else is pretty much the same exact story? Goga Bitadze.
- Traded three 2nd round picks for a PHX 1st, which FO used to acquire Desmond Bane. MEM doesn't agree to trade Desmond Bane without that PHX 1st. In the meantime, this board was complaining about how the FO trades 2nds every summer for nothing. In the meantime, this boards complains about trading away the PHX 1st for Desmond Bane as if it magically appeared on their armchair GM laps without this FO getting it via trade.
- Traded for a DEN 1st, which FO used to acquire #25 pick Jase Richardson. Traded #46 pick, and only future 2nd's acquired from trades, for #32 pick Noah Penda. In the meantime, this board complains about trading away future 2nds acquired via trade as if they magically appeared on their armchair GM laps without this FO getting them via trade.
- Drafts Anthony Black and Tristan Da Silva, rotation players today. With Anthony Black being younger than more than half of the draft picks made last week.
- I could get into defending their bad decisions next (to a certain extent, at least). The one that stands out is Jonathan Isaac. He wasn't even a top 5 pick. He also easily plays up to his draft selection on some nights when factoring 2-way impact. His contract is now under 15 mil per year and non-guaranteed in future seasons if his health goes very bad. That makes it a "Super TPE" because it can be added with other players in the same trade aggregation. The FO's zombie-activity years also had one hidden truth, this FO makes limited mistakes. And is more patient than others. (And if you dare counter this whole post by picking on this very last bullet point instead of the bigger ones, how conceited by you!)
dsg2021 wrote:- Orlando Ownership hire an outside consulting firm to help evaluate FO hires after Hennigan's FO run. They end up getting a FO that includes like four former GM's all in one building. And a fifth GM with Anthony Parker today, a former scout for ORL.
- Drafted Paolo Banchero #1 when it was not obvious to do it. For example, I was not interested in following the draft and NBA in these terrible Magic years, and I based like 75% of my choice on what you guys were saying about the draft in the board here, which guess what, was Jabari Smith or Chet Holmgren. Thanks guys.
At this point, the Weltman FO is already safe. And interestingly enough, the ratio of NBA fans who think Paolo is going to be a top 10 player in the league is seemingly higher than the ratio of Magic fans who think the same on this board. In here, we get to read "Ohhh, but look at these super advanced stats on Paolo in these regular season games." And then a whole lot of silence about Paolo's two Playoffs series so far.
- Traded Nikola Vucevic for a much younger center, Wendell Carter Jr., and 1st round picks turning into Franz Wagner and Jett Howard. A lot of complaining about Jett Howard without remembering he was a trade-acquired pick playing with house money after using one on Franz Wagner.
If you don't like the Weltman FO after this, on Franz Wagner alone, and as a trade-acquired pick, and enough to give them some leeway for the zombie-level FO activity during Paolo, Franz, and Suggs' developmental seasons, then I don't know what to say.
- Drafted Jalen Suggs #5 and Franz Wagner #8 in the same draft. I would take Cade Cunningham over Suggs, but Cade was the #1 pick. So I can't really find anyone selected after Suggs #5 and Franz #8 that I would take over them today, in the 55 draft picks between/after them. Let that statement sink in. Pull up their draft and dare to speak. If you think you can pick on Suggs particularly, and win a "Who was better to draft?" over him, an All-NBA 2nd Defensive Team guard already, by talking about injuries instead of on the court 2-way impact, then that is a bad start. Also, here's one more fun exercise. The Weltman FO home run slammed the #5 and #8 picks way more than any other #5 and #8 same draft pairing together. Do you dare to even try and find a better #5 and #8 pairing from other drafts? In the meantime, this board was complaining super hard about Franz Wagner on his draft night selection, and as if the #8 pick magically appeared on their armchair GM laps without this FO getting it via trade.
- BOS Celtics waive Mo Wagner in the middle of a season. Not a lot of action biting on Mo Wagner. But FO picks him up and he has been a crowd favorite for a few seasons nows, and a top 3 6MOTY candidate last season before injury. Guess who else is pretty much the same exact story? Goga Bitadze.
- Traded three 2nd round picks for a PHX 1st, which FO used to acquire Desmond Bane. MEM doesn't agree to trade Desmond Bane without that PHX 1st. In the meantime, this board was complaining about how the FO trades 2nds every summer for nothing. In the meantime, this boards complains about trading away the PHX 1st for Desmond Bane as if it magically appeared on their armchair GM laps without this FO getting it via trade.
- Traded for a DEN 1st, which FO used to acquire #25 pick Jase Richardson. Traded #46 pick, and only future 2nd's acquired from trades, for #32 pick Noah Penda. In the meantime, this board complains about trading away future 2nds acquired via trade as if they magically appeared on their armchair GM laps without this FO getting them via trade.
- Drafts Anthony Black and Tristan Da Silva, rotation players today. With Anthony Black being younger than more than half of the draft picks made last week.
- I could get into defending their bad decisions next (to a certain extent, at least). The one that stands out is Jonathan Isaac. He wasn't even a top 5 pick. He also easily plays up to his draft selection on some nights when factoring 2-way impact. His contract is now under 15 mil per year and non-guaranteed in future seasons if his health goes very bad. That makes it a "Super TPE" because it can be added with other players in the same trade aggregation. The FO's zombie-activity years also had one hidden truth, this FO makes limited mistakes. And is more patient than others. (And if you dare counter this whole post by picking on this very last bullet point instead of the bigger ones, how conceited by you!)
Another great post
Wanting Weltman to be fired is just dumb
Suggs, Tyus, Jase Bane, AB, Jett Franz, TDS, P5, JI, Panda Wcj, Goga, Moe
Our front office is well above average. I am consistent on this take for years. They make small mistakes and funny enough my draft predictions are better than theirs but they hit on all important swings and kept our assets away from the swarm mind fans. Now they are even starting to exceed my expectations. Curious for the summer league.
pepe1991 wrote:Should I or somebody else tell them that Weltman didn't join team in 2021 but 2017?
Interesting you don't talk about the players the Weltman FO has ended up with today, but instead about one of the worser seasons a long time ago, when they first came on board.
But let's talk about it.
Because Weltman inherited Hennigan's team in 2017. And the same way you trash the ORL FO every season no matter who it is, and how messed up it is for future years in a row, but then that all of that suddenly goes away when judging Weltman in his first 2-3 seasons with Hennigan's inherited roster and war chest, is the most classic mental gymnastics bending that I know you for. Examples from the team sheet in first season: - Bismack Biyombo: Hennigan's 3 years contract - Evan Fournier: Hennigan's 3 years contract - No 2016 lotto 1st draft pick to inherit. Hennigan traded it away. - Nothing good on the roster except for Nikola Vucevic.
This is why I had to include all the "In the meantime.." sentences in my post above, because they represent the serious mental gymnastics hoops that the cynics have to jump through.
Examples: - The type of posters to have yearly posts trashing the FO trading away their 2nds or the draft flattening out, but now you are in a pickle because you want to trash the FO for mortgaging their future by trading away a PHX 1st for Bane. So you trash the FO for mortgaging their future, but stay quiet about how they got the PHX 1st. Now your post history keeps looking pretty if no one looks closer.
- The type of posters to trash the Vucevic trade with a worser center coming back and picks that will never be lottery. But stay quiet when they turn into lottery picks and Franz Wagner. Because now your post history keeps looking pretty if no one looks closer.
Spoiler:
pepe1991 wrote:Esencially , for now, it's Wendell Carter and some 14-18 pick in 2021 for Vuc and yet to be determinated 2023 pick.
Wendell made no progress in year one to year to nor in year two to year three. Esencially, Wendell, 3 years into his nba career is copy past same player he was at college.
It's also important to note guy is kind a fatty, 6'10- 270 pounds. His numbers are mostly all around negative, on both ends.
- The type of posters to trash the Franz Wagner pick. But then stay quiet and use his name later for more cynicism like how to tell everyone Franz is way better than Paolo like it's some republicans versus democrats level serious, which is one of the least useful arguments because they're both on the same team and just be happy about a team with two top 40 players and getting higher. But with enough time passing, your post history keeps looking pretty if no one looks closer.
Spoiler:
pepe1991 wrote:Anyway, i don't think things Wagner was able to do at college are that transending in nba. I don't think he has latheral quickness nor strenght to be anything more than average defender. If he plays SF he will be tasked to guard some of most athletic players in whole world.
His shooting today isn't really his strenght, he isn't terrible nor he has broken form, but it doesn't go in at good rate.
As a ballhandler, against elite athletes, i just can't see him creating any serious ,effective offense. His handles are not that good and he does not have quick enough first step to be effective if he is slotted at SF.
I also don't think his best postion in nba is SF, it's probably PF. Especially if he is 6'10 now.
Now, can you move him at PF and play Isaac at Center? Maybe. But to me that's too many moving parts of roster to be sucessful, especially because it's just easier to use top 5-8 pick in 2022 to draft "normal" center anyway.
I'm not "mad" on Orlando for drafting him, but it's boring safe pick. Low upside, low ceiling.
I value my fingers too much to press reply on keyboard to replay on such astronomical level of nonsense
Hopefully you did yourself good pad on a back and self high five after wasting time searching through 22 000 posts to find one that fits you
Serious advice: get a life.
Says the guy who posts here the most. And has nothing substantive to say about my two posts above.
I joined RealGM in 2009 and have 3,700 posts. Lurked a few years before joining. You joined RealGM in 2016 and have 22,700 posts. I also did not post in this thread until Page 30. I am already kicking myself for doing it too, with the likes of you lurking in it every day.
By the way, the "searching through 22,000 posts" was more like 10 posts and it took me like 10 minutes.
Step 1. Search for the date these transactions happened in real life. Vucevic trade happened on a very specific date. Step 2. Write in top left search bar the words "pepe" and one more keyword related to that transaction like "Vucevic". Step 3. Only go to the results page that had that very specific transaction date, because guess what, you're a little troll who is ready to strike on the same exact day of that transaction for 5 years running. How much is the toll fee to cross your bridge, Pepe?
