Official 2025 Offseason Thread

[eyriq]

eyriq is right.

YKB

[AdamTheGreek]

The Magic are hosting a media event tomorrow (Tuesday) morning at Kia Center (Martins and Cole DeVos will be there).

I’m assuming it’s either new logo/branding related, or it has something to do with the Westcourt project across the street, or Kia Center renovations related.

[cedric76]

eyriq is right.

YKB

Eyriq is always right.




......
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Except, maybe, for booker lite

[VFX]

Weltman has NO chips. He has draft picks and a well made swap. His actual trade pieces are a bunch of low value assets I just named that he’s held onto forever.

You gotta stop saying this. The draft picks literally are the trade chips that matter.

The Pacers acquired Siakam for one wildly overpaid role player who was expiring (team option) and three first round picks. The first two of those draft picks were 19th overall and 29th overall.

Brother.

You are acting like roster spots and the salaries of players doesn’t matter at all in the equation of trades.

You cannot straight up trade 4 first round picks for Darius Garland. Why? Because he’s a $40m contract. Draft picks are sweeteners WHEN you match salary elsewhere.

The other side to that is the fact that Orlando’s bench is straight up garbage. So if you combine Cole, Isaac, and Goga in some deal for a real player (with picks) you now have nobody on the bench whatsoever.

Orlando doesn’t have oodles of cap space to just acquire Pascal Siakam.

[Skybox]

Yeah and even Weltman admits to this with his deadline quote of “Well we tried but everyone tried squeezing us.”

That’s because teams knew you couldn’t do anything but trade your core because no one wanted your low value assets. They wanted Suggs. They wanted Franz and or they want your draft picks. Not Cole Anthony. Not Jett Howard.

Are opposing teams usually "generous"?

Should have said "I failed to do anything". Period.

What does his excuse even mean? Would said mean GM have given the same player for less to another team than the Magic

[89Magicfan]

Yeah and even Weltman admits to this with his deadline quote of “Well we tried but everyone tried squeezing us.”

That’s because teams knew you couldn’t do anything but trade your core because no one wanted your low value assets. They wanted Suggs. They wanted Franz and or they want your draft picks. Not Cole Anthony. Not Jett Howard.

Are opposing teams usually "generous"?

Should have said "I failed to do anything". Period.

What does his excuse even mean? Would said mean GM have given the same player for less to another team than the Magic

Did I use the word generous?


It means he knew we needed to make a move but didn’t have the assets to get it which means outside of his core, the team is ****.

Maybe he can pull it off this off season. He might need to decrease who’s the core to two players.

[eyriq]

Yeah and even Weltman admits to this with his deadline quote of “Well we tried but everyone tried squeezing us.”

That’s because teams knew you couldn’t do anything but trade your core because no one wanted your low value assets. They wanted Suggs. They wanted Franz and or they want your draft picks. Not Cole Anthony. Not Jett Howard.

Are opposing teams usually "generous"?

Should have said "I failed to do anything". Period.

What does his excuse even mean? Would said mean GM have given the same player for less to another team than the Magic

Weltman put us in a situation where CoJo was starting in the playoffs. I really can't forgive his inaction at the deadline given this outcome. That said, I don't think it deserves a vote of no confidence.

[pepe1991]

I love how some people pretend that's some new meta- new technology process of finding talent where others can't see it.

Soccer teams figured in mid early 2000s that they can't compeat with teams with deepest pockets by just trying to bid more on players because they would go broke.
So they developed net of lower risk transfers, by going through less popular leagues to find hidden gems.

Over time you had teams that developed whole economy over this concept.

Spurs were first NBA teams that stole this whole ideology.

2008 Spurs get George Hill with 28# pick. Over 3 years they develop him, Pop says all the right lies for press ( calling him his favorite player etc) until some fool calls and offers serious value for him. George Hill turns into- Kawhi Leonard.

In 2009 they draft Splitter 28th ( 23 years old) and keep him stashed in Europe for next 3 years.

In 2010 they pick up Danny Green (46th pick that got cut after one year).

In 2012 they will pick up Patty Mills from China, after nba fiasco and Gary Neal off Barcelona.


Splitter, Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green will become 3 starters on team that went to finals AND won championship in back to back years. Mills will become scoring punch off bench.

That's the whole point. Every idiot can watch 18 y.o. Lebron and see talent. NBA teams make difference by finding talents where others don't see anything. Over time those small moves make big difference.


Dallas last year built starting lineup around Kyrie and Doncic with guys who were undervalued on bad teams. PJ Washington was bench player on Hornets, Gafford played on damn Wizards , they got Derrick Jones Jr for $9,5M a year after sitting on Bulls bench whole year long.


Weltman's whole roster is bunch of high lottery picks. At average Magic have highest drafted team in nba. After 8 years it's safe to say that he is not capable of finding talent outside lottery. And in mean time some Pacers beat you to a punch by better roster managment and nothing else. Whole roster made out of trades, mid lottery selected players and smart FAs.
Magic probably have better "big 3" than Pacers. But Pacers rest of a roster is so much better than anything that Magic have.

Whole point short: you can't rely on draft and inner growth to fix your roster issues. Every deadline you have shot at improving roster. You don't have to go from 35 wins to 72 wins with every trade, but you have to make small(er) moves that lead to something bigger because there is a chance that you simply won't have good "big trade" offer once you need one. Or team will low blow you knowing you are desparate.

[Skybox]

Yeah and even Weltman admits to this with his deadline quote of “Well we tried but everyone tried squeezing us.”

That’s because teams knew you couldn’t do anything but trade your core because no one wanted your low value assets. They wanted Suggs. They wanted Franz and or they want your draft picks. Not Cole Anthony. Not Jett Howard.

Are opposing teams usually "generous"?

Should have said "I failed to do anything". Period.

What does his excuse even mean? Would said mean GM have given the same player for less to another team than the Magic

Weltman put us in a situation where CoJo was starting in the playoffs. I really can't forgive his inaction at the deadline given this outcome. That said, I don't think it deserves a vote of no confidence.

OK...at least you understood my comment - so there's that.

let me rephrase Weltman's story..."I wanted to win but they were mean and wouldn't let me, so I didn't do anything"

I don't know how he could float his original comment...what were fans, other GMs, successful people in any field supposed to say to that weak s**t?
"Wow Jeff-that sucks. Maybe next year they'll be nicer to you when ORL will seem less desperate", or "Did you tell Principal Silver that the other GMs were bullying you?"...Seriously, what's the appropriate response to "everyone we wanted to deal with was trying to squeeze me"?

Like...that's their job - and YOURS...go squeeze them you runt!

[VFX]

It’s just funny to me that the conversation went from:

Weltman wasn’t going to push all his chips in during development years….

To

Orlando shouldn’t have moved and overpaid mediocre bench players and couldn’t do his job on the margins.

To

These teams that are competitive are winning because they have elite players in their prime.


Those are all different points.

It doesn’t negate the fact that Orlando’s roster could be better with just the slightest decisions. The asset pool could be better. The supporting cast around our talented developing players could be better IN their path toward development.

Some of you are just making excuses and changing the point being made here because you don’t like facts.

[eyriq]

I love how some people pretend that's some new meta- new technology process of finding talent where others can't see it.

Soccer teams figured in mid early 2000s that they can't compeat with teams with deepest pockets by just trying to bid more on players because they would go broke.
So they developed net of lower risk transfers, by going through less popular leagues to find hidden gems.

Over time you had teams that developed whole economy over this concept.

Spurs were first NBA teams that stole this whole ideology.

2008 Spurs get George Hill with 28# pick. Over 3 years they develop him, Pop says all the right lies for press ( calling him his favorite player etc) until some fool calls and offers serious value for him. George Hill turns into- Kawhi Leonard.

In 2009 they draft Splitter 28th ( 23 years old) and keep him stashed in Europe for next 3 years.

In 2010 they pick up Danny Green (46th pick that got cut after one year).

In 2012 they will pick up Patty Mills from China, after nba fiasco and Gary Neal off Barcelona.


Splitter, Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green will become 3 starters on team that went to finals AND won championship in back to back years. Mills will become scoring punch off bench.

That's the whole point. Every idiot can watch 18 y.o. Lebron and see talent. NBA teams make difference by finding talents where others don't see anything. Over time those small moves make big difference.


Dallas last year built starting lineup around Kyrie and Doncic with guys who were undervalued on bad teams. PJ Washington was bench player on Hornets, Gafford played on damn Wizards , they got Derrick Jones Jr for $9,5M a year after sitting on Bulls bench whole year long.


Weltman's whole roster is bunch of high lottery picks. At average Magic have highest drafted team in nba. After 8 years it's safe to say that he is not capable of finding talent outside lottery. And in mean time some Pacers beat you to a punch by better roster managment and nothing else. Whole roster made out of trades, mid lottery selected players and smart FAs.
Magic probably have better "big 3" than Pacers. But Pacers rest of a roster is so much better than anything that Magic have.

Whole point short: you can't rely on draft and inner growth to fix your roster issues. Every deadline you have shot at improving roster. You don't have to go from 35 wins to 72 wins with every trade, but you have to make small(er) moves that lead to something bigger because there is a chance that you simply won't have good "big trade" offer once you need one. Or team will low blow you knowing you are desparate.

You’re not wrong about the value of marginal trades and finding inefficiencies, teams like Indiana have done that well. But you're flattening timelines to force a narrative that doesn't hold.

Orlando wasn't in the same stage as Indiana or OKC until now. Those teams started consolidating after their core proved it. We just got here. Paolo just finished year three, Suggs and Franz year four. Our cap sheet only now shifts out of rebuild mode, and Weltman has publicly said this is the offseason for win-now decisions.

The critique you're making would land if we were two years into contention with nothing to show. We're not. We’re entering that phase now. Judging the rebuild for not doing what comes after the rebuild is just a misread of sequencing.

[Skybox]

I love how some people pretend that's some new meta- new technology process of finding talent where others can't see it.

Soccer teams figured in mid early 2000s that they can't compeat with teams with deepest pockets by just trying to bid more on players because they would go broke.
So they developed net of lower risk transfers, by going through less popular leagues to find hidden gems.

Over time you had teams that developed whole economy over this concept.

Spurs were first NBA teams that stole this whole ideology.

2008 Spurs get George Hill with 28# pick. Over 3 years they develop him, Pop says all the right lies for press ( calling him his favorite player etc) until some fool calls and offers serious value for him. George Hill turns into- Kawhi Leonard.

In 2009 they draft Splitter 28th ( 23 years old) and keep him stashed in Europe for next 3 years.

In 2010 they pick up Danny Green (46th pick that got cut after one year).

In 2012 they will pick up Patty Mills from China, after nba fiasco and Gary Neal off Barcelona.


Splitter, Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green will become 3 starters on team that went to finals AND won championship in back to back years. Mills will become scoring punch off bench.

That's the whole point. Every idiot can watch 18 y.o. Lebron and see talent. NBA teams make difference by finding talents where others don't see anything. Over time those small moves make big difference.

Dallas last year built starting lineup around Kyrie and Doncic with guys who were undervalued on bad teams. PJ Washington was bench player on Hornets, Gafford played on damn Wizards , they got Derrick Jones Jr for $9,5M a year after sitting on Bulls bench whole year long.


Weltman's whole roster is bunch of high lottery picks. At average Magic have highest drafted team in nba. After 8 years it's safe to say that he is not capable of finding talent outside lottery. And in mean time some Pacers beat you to a punch by better roster managment and nothing else. Whole roster made out of trades, mid lottery selected players and smart FAs.
Magic probably have better "big 3" than Pacers. But Pacers rest of a roster is so much better than anything that Magic have.

Whole point short: you can't rely on draft and inner growth to fix your roster issues. Every deadline you have shot at improving roster. You don't have to go from 35 wins to 72 wins with every trade, but you have to make small(er) moves that lead to something bigger because there is a chance that you simply won't have good "big trade" offer once you need one. Or team will low blow you knowing you are desparate.

I think this is a really good observation...I'd also add that we should probably FIRST look at the perennially bad orgs to try and mine some undeveloped or underdeveloped gems to fill out our roster inexpensively rather than point to Giannis or Trae, etc. Always start with SAC and WAS, imo.

You're not going to find any hidden secret gems on OKC, BOS, HOU, or IND...they've shown they know what they're doing when it comes to young talent evaluation...maybe the CBA FORCES them to consider sharing second-tier guys that they just can't extend for what they're worth and would, wisely, prefer to jump back in to the draft and turn over more excellent players with late picks while someone else has a bigger role than they need to give their deep bench guys. They have good reason to expect that they can find more good players since they do it every year, regardless of where they land in the draft.

[basketballRob]

The Magic are hosting a media event tomorrow (Tuesday) morning at Kia Center (Martins and Cole DeVos will be there).

I’m assuming it’s either new logo/branding related, or it has something to do with the Westcourt project across the street, or Kia Center renovations related.

I have a theory that Cole is the reason we keep getting Michigan players.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

[Idiosyncratic]

I love how some people pretend that's some new meta- new technology process of finding talent where others can't see it.

Soccer teams figured in mid early 2000s that they can't compeat with teams with deepest pockets by just trying to bid more on players because they would go broke.
So they developed net of lower risk transfers, by going through less popular leagues to find hidden gems.

Over time you had teams that developed whole economy over this concept.

Spurs were first NBA teams that stole this whole ideology.

2008 Spurs get George Hill with 28# pick. Over 3 years they develop him, Pop says all the right lies for press ( calling him his favorite player etc) until some fool calls and offers serious value for him. George Hill turns into- Kawhi Leonard.

In 2009 they draft Splitter 28th ( 23 years old) and keep him stashed in Europe for next 3 years.

In 2010 they pick up Danny Green (46th pick that got cut after one year).

In 2012 they will pick up Patty Mills from China, after nba fiasco and Gary Neal off Barcelona.


Splitter, Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green will become 3 starters on team that went to finals AND won championship in back to back years. Mills will become scoring punch off bench.

That's the whole point. Every idiot can watch 18 y.o. Lebron and see talent. NBA teams make difference by finding talents where others don't see anything. Over time those small moves make big difference.


Dallas last year built starting lineup around Kyrie and Doncic with guys who were undervalued on bad teams. PJ Washington was bench player on Hornets, Gafford played on damn Wizards , they got Derrick Jones Jr for $9,5M a year after sitting on Bulls bench whole year long.


Weltman's whole roster is bunch of high lottery picks. At average Magic have highest drafted team in nba. After 8 years it's safe to say that he is not capable of finding talent outside lottery. And in mean time some Pacers beat you to a punch by better roster managment and nothing else. Whole roster made out of trades, mid lottery selected players and smart FAs.
Magic probably have better "big 3" than Pacers. But Pacers rest of a roster is so much better than anything that Magic have.

Whole point short: you can't rely on draft and inner growth to fix your roster issues. Every deadline you have shot at improving roster. You don't have to go from 35 wins to 72 wins with every trade, but you have to make small(er) moves that lead to something bigger because there is a chance that you simply won't have good "big trade" offer once you need one. Or team will low blow you knowing you are desparate.

I do agree with this, I think it is one of the best criticisms of Weltman. Though I will start by saying that Goga was a pretty good find off of the scrap heap.

Weltman has mostly failed at bringing in anybody interesting for looks. Like we could have been trying different guards for cheap via trade or signings, but stuck with Harris, Cole and Fultz. That to me was a huge failure, a lot of these good teams are built by finding gems for little cost.

And every single good team seems to have key players they found in the 2nd or undrafted. Jokic, Nembhard, Dort, Wiggins, Ajay Mitchell, McBride, Dean Wade, Hauser, Reaves, Naz Reid etc. Not even to mention the guys taken with super late 1sts. Literally every elite team has a key guy they found that way, there is really no exception this year. We have Caleb Houstan That's it. So agree the drafting outside of the top 10 has been a huge flaw with Weltman. I will say some of the 2nds were used for interesting things. They got the Suns swap with them and they got 2nd round swaps with the Pelicans with a 2nd. Now will they actually use those to get value via trade or making a smart pick? Who knows.

But I think most people agree with those criticisms. I think if you believe in the core then having them plus all of their picks intact plus no really crippling contracts makes their overall spot right now still not that bad. Some people are still optimistic they can find those supporting pieces eventually as they don't usually cost much to find. And if the core doesn't end up being good enough then it was probably doomed from the beginning.

But I do agree they should have done way better to find those supporting pieces in prior years. And sometimes those 2nd round picks or cheapish trades for role type players end up becoming so much more. You gotta take shots on finding guys like that. Those 2nd round picks I mentioned, Clippers got Zubac for nothing, Celtics acquiring Derrick White for cheap; Absolutely agree they have missed on moves like that, but I am still hopeful that they can right the ship. Sometimes it just takes getting lucky on one guy that fits perfectly.

[Knightro]

Brother.

You are acting like roster spots and the salaries of players doesn’t matter at all in the equation of trades.

You cannot straight up trade 4 first round picks for Darius Garland. Why? Because he’s a $40m contract. Draft picks are sweeteners WHEN you match salary elsewhere.

The other side to that is the fact that Orlando’s bench is straight up garbage. So if you combine Cole, Isaac, and Goga in some deal for a real player (with picks) you now have nobody on the bench whatsoever.

Orlando doesn’t have oodles of cap space to just acquire Pascal Siakam.

Yes, obviously.

For a guy like Garland, it would take Suggs. This is beyond clear. The 64 win Cavaliers aren't unloading an all-star talent for just picks. They aren't in that position.

But for almost every other potential target - Simons/Poole/Sexton/C. White - the player portion from the Magic's perspective is mostly irrelevant. They're strictly salary filler.

I even think Derrick White wouldn't necessarily cost the Magic core talent because they are financially motivated with Tatum out for next season and their title window for at least next year slammed shut.

And let me get this right... the Magic's bench is straight up garbage, but you're concerned about the Magic's bench having nobody if they trade away three guys?

It doesn't add up man. If guys on the bench currently actually suck, then you shouldn't care if they get rid of them, right?

[Knightro]

The Magic have their full MLE. They have veteran minimums. They have two first round picks and two second round picks this year.

They have a ton of avenues to add players to this roster even if they trade three guys for one.

[thelead]

The Magic have their full MLE. They have veteran minimums. They have two first round picks and two second round picks this year.

They have a ton of avenues to add players to this roster even if they trade three guys for one.

They absolutely have assets. Where I hold pessimism is their likelihood of using them. They have traded picks for future picks, or worse, cash, so often that I have little faith at this point. Now, maybe those trades were all made to go shopping when things became clear to them (now) and over the next year but until I actually see it, I’m not holding my breath.

[Idiosyncratic]

The Magic have their full MLE. They have veteran minimums. They have two first round picks and two second round picks this year.

They have a ton of avenues to add players to this roster even if they trade three guys for one.

They absolutely have assets. Where I hold pessimism is their likelihood of using them. They have traded picks for future picks, or worse, cash, so often that I have little faith at this point. Now, maybe those trades were all made to go shopping when things became clear to them (now) and over the next year but until I actually see it, I’m not holding my breath.

Yeah I think that is what it boils down to. They easily have enough assets for a competent GM to fill out the rest of this roster while at the same time not dooming the cap sheet or unloading every single pick they have remaining to do so. The question is can Weltman do that? And I think that is a valid question and we are going to find out very soon here.

[dsg2021]

The Front Office traded 3 SRP’s for what will probably be something like the 8th pick of the next draft. That’s one way to get value.

We can also criticize all day but our Core 3 is better than most. Franz was a steal of a draft pick, the kind that makes up for not making a steal of a SRP that was simply a NBA starter instead of not. Suggs and Paolo were not easy home run picks to make considering all the players available either.

At some point, instead of digging to criticize, we look big picture and this FO is 10x better than Hennigan’s supposed draft wizardry.

We own all our picks. Plus the 8th pick of the next draft. We have one of the most valuable trade chips in JI’s contract the longer we keep it, it has a 3 year window of TPE-like impact and CAN be added to other player salaries. Believe it or not, KCP has value. AB has value. TDS has value. Goga has value. And so forth.

Yes, we’re all waiting in anticipation of the eventual improving of the margins and making a team that fits on offense. But better to be late to the casino show than to arrive on time with no money.

If we wanted an aces Front Office with glorious wins in every thing, from core moves to margin moves, and a title in less than 5 years, go for it. You can dig up one idea I wrote about here a long while ago; every Magic FO has 3-5 years to impress or they’re clean sweeped fired for the next contestant. The only problem is not allowing each one to go “too in” and making the next FO have nothing.

Otherwise, you see you need to allow like 7-12 year frames for these FO’s and allow some big picture looks. Because I have never seen players in ORL on Paolo and Franz’s level in a long time. Nor Suggs, who was first for the biggest win/loss impact on the Magic when on/off the court last season. Suggs shot 88 FT% in those wins. And Franz 85 FT% and 34 3P% in his Magic wins, including that solo stretch looking like a 1a franchise star.

[mattdelray1220]

The Front Office traded 3 SRP’s for the 8th pick of the next draft. That’s one way to get value.

We can also criticize all day but our Core 3 is better than most. Franz was a steal of a draft pick, the kind that makes up for making a steal of a SRP that was simply a NBA starter instead of not. Suggs and Paolo were not easy home run picks to make considering all the players available either.

At some point, instead of digging to criticize, we look big picture and this FO is 10x better than Hennigan’s supposed draft wizardry.

We own all our picks. Plus the 8th pick of the next draft. We have one of the most valuable trade chips in JI’s contract the longer we keep it, it has a 3 year window of TPE-like impact and CAN be added to other player salaries. Believe it or not, KCP has value. AB has value. TDS has value. Goga has value. And so forth.

Yes, we’re all waiting in anticipation of the eventual improving of the margins and making a team that fits on offense. But better to be late to the casino show than to arrive on time with no money.

If we wanted an aces Front Office with glorious wins in every thing, from core moves to margin moves, and a title in less than 5 years, go for it. You can dig up one idea I wrote about here a long while ago; every Magic FO has 3-5 years to impress or they’re clean sweeped fired for the next contestant. The only problem is not allowing each one to go “too in” and making the next FO have nothing.

Otherwise, you see you need to allow like 7-12 year frames for these FO’s and allow some big picture looks. Because trust me, if it wasn’t for Paolo, Franz and Suggs, I would really hope they are let go already.

I agree with this. Not sure where you got the 8th pick next year from? We can swap. But yes, I think we have some assets and I believe they are viewed decently around the league. We will have a trade in the next 3 weeks no doubt in my mind. We will also add a shooter in FA. My guess Taurean Prince.

I am very happy with Paolo, Franz, Suggs as our 3. Havent even really seen them in a long time together. I bet its special. I think next year will be.