Raptors: Masai’s hunt for another championship!?

[sprewellchokes]

Raps' title run was as flukey as it gets, maybe in another 10 years it happens again but not immediately.

The Raptors had almost a decade of making the playoffs and being a high seed. They kept running into Lebron James.

We just needed one player that can lift the whole team, and get a bucket when needed. Kawhi was that guy.

The team had:

Kyle Lowry: 6× NBA All-Star (2015–2020), All-NBA Third Team (2016)

Marc Gasol: 3× NBA All-Star (2012, 2015, 2017), All-NBA First Team (2015), All-NBA Second Team (2013), NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2013), NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2013)

Pascal Siakam: NBA Most Improved Player (2019) Future 2× NBA All-Star (2020, 2023), All-NBA Second Team (2020), All-NBA Third Team (2022)

Danny Green: NBA Champion (2014), NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2017)

Serge Ibaka: 3× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2012–2014)

Fred VanVleet: NBA Champion (2019), NBA All-Star (2022)


Not to forget: OG and Norm Powell.

That's really, really not a fluke.

It was a fluke in the sense that it's very very rare to play a finals against a team without it's best player. Last time I can think of it happening was back to back in 88 and 89 when Magic and Isiah were hurt in different years. The Raptors weren't the best team that year, everyone knows that. They got to play a team missing it's best player, and then their third best player got hurt and missed some time and came back later in the series but wasn't the same. And for some reason, Raptors fans try to rewrite history and pretend that's not the case, lol.

As for your summary of the roster, come on man, lol. Gasol was basically washed and Siakam wasn't an all star yet.

Adding a top three player ( Kawhi) to a 59 win team and winning a championship isn’t a fluke.

[tsherkin]

The Raptors had almost a decade of making the playoffs and being a high seed. They kept running into Lebron James.

We just needed one player that can lift the whole team, and get a bucket when needed. Kawhi was that guy.

The team had:

Kyle Lowry: 6× NBA All-Star (2015–2020), All-NBA Third Team (2016)

Marc Gasol: 3× NBA All-Star (2012, 2015, 2017), All-NBA First Team (2015), All-NBA Second Team (2013), NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2013), NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2013)

Pascal Siakam: NBA Most Improved Player (2019) Future 2× NBA All-Star (2020, 2023), All-NBA Second Team (2020), All-NBA Third Team (2022)

Danny Green: NBA Champion (2014), NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2017)

Serge Ibaka: 3× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2012–2014)

Fred VanVleet: NBA Champion (2019), NBA All-Star (2022)


Not to forget: OG and Norm Powell.

That's really, really not a fluke.

It was a fluke in the sense that it's very very rare to play a finals against a team without it's best player. Last time I can think of it happening was back to back in 88 and 89 when Magic and Isiah were hurt in different years. The Raptors weren't the best team that year, everyone knows that. They got to play a team missing it's best player, and then their third best player got hurt and missed some time and came back later in the series but wasn't the same. And for some reason, Raptors fans try to rewrite history and pretend that's not the case, lol.

As for your summary of the roster, come on man, lol. Gasol was basically washed and Siakam wasn't an all star yet.

Adding a top three player ( Kawhi) to a 59 win team and winning a championship isn’t a fluke.

Honestly, I think the "fluke" element was Kawhi becoming available in the first place. Adding him to the 2018 Raptors team as a replacement for a Demar-level player was always going to result in a serious run. We were a good team, we just needed a scorer who didn't vanish up his own ass in the playoffs.

[sprewellchokes]

Two guys who aren’t even proven All Stars or blue chip prospects for Giannis? You’re joking or totally disconnected from reality

Barnes was an all star last season...

You're also getting pick #9 and 3 future FRPs


Let's look at what Davis got:
BI, Lonzo, Hart, #4, 2 FRP


Barnes, RJ, #9 = BI, Lonzo, Hart, #4
So Giannis getting an extra FRP than the Davis deal.
And Bucks get to send Giannis to a place he wants to go. A big city, big Greek population, east coast, Masai GM.

Brother he was an injury replacement all star. Aka he wouldn’t be picked normally. If he’s such a good player the Raps can build around him instead of Giannis?

Your package is a bunch of junk. #9 is a huge difference to #4 in most drafts

Barnes is leaps and bounds better than anything on your roster minus Giannis. If he wants to come to Toronto you’ll have to lie down and take the fleece. Just like the raptors did with Siakam. Just like New Orleans did with Ingram. That’s the league today

[TheAlchemist]

Quickly/Ingram/Poeltl and Toronto's bench is def better than the Bucks sans Lillard. AKA Kuzma, Portis, Trent, Porter Jr.

With how the East is shaping up in the near future (Pacers, Knicks, Cavs, Celtics?, Detroit + Orlando coming up), I fail to see how that roster is competitive.

Really? If Ingram can play 55-65 games and with how decent the Raps bench looked at the end of last year? I could totally see that being a 50+ win team. Giannis changes everything.

Yep. Ingram is as good if not better then prime Middleton. Ingram has shot creation on top of the elite shooting, making him deadly. Depending on who they keep like Quickley for example, the team can be crazy competitive. I don't see that much of a gap either, between all the contending teams.

Another thing, in the trade machine Scottie Barnes, ochai abaji, Gradey Dick , works. Although I'd like to keep Ochai, Having the starters and basically replacing Scottie with Giannis is something. It also gives the Raptors Jakobe, Jamaal Shead, Mogbo , on the bench with RJ at the 2 spot.

Where Depth and multiple scorers are the key to success (re: OKC, Pacers, even Minny/NYK), I think that a team of:

Poeltl - Giannis - Ingram - RJ - Quickley is damn good.

[GiannisAnte34]

Barnes was an all star last season...

You're also getting pick #9 and 3 future FRPs


Let's look at what Davis got:
BI, Lonzo, Hart, #4, 2 FRP


Barnes, RJ, #9 = BI, Lonzo, Hart, #4
So Giannis getting an extra FRP than the Davis deal.
And Bucks get to send Giannis to a place he wants to go. A big city, big Greek population, east coast, Masai GM.

Brother he was an injury replacement all star. Aka he wouldn’t be picked normally. If he’s such a good player the Raps can build around him instead of Giannis?

Your package is a bunch of junk. #9 is a huge difference to #4 in most drafts

Barnes is leaps and bounds better than anything on your roster minus Giannis. If he wants to come to Toronto you’ll have to lie down and take the fleece. Just like the raptors did with Siakam. Just like New Orleans did with Ingram. That’s the league today

Barnes is nothing special. He is a wing who can defend and rebound. They’ve tried to force feed him #1 scoring duties and he is woefully incapable of even stat padding. He’s basically the new OG

Also why are we insisting on these fantasy hypothetical player demands? Must be really desperate

[tsherkin]

Yep. Ingram is as good if not better then prime Middleton. Ingram has shot creation on top of the elite shooting, making him deadly. Depending on who they keep like Quickley for example, the team can be crazy competitive. I don't see that much of a gap either, between all the contending teams.

Ingram is similar to Middleton. A better iso scorer, but less efficient overall, which is worth noting... though if we're lucky and Giannis does actually come to Toronto (big, big if), then we'll see what BI can do next to a real #1, of course.

[ConSarnit]

Barnes was an all star last season...

You're also getting pick #9 and 3 future FRPs


Let's look at what Davis got:
BI, Lonzo, Hart, #4, 2 FRP


Barnes, RJ, #9 = BI, Lonzo, Hart, #4
So Giannis getting an extra FRP than the Davis deal.
And Bucks get to send Giannis to a place he wants to go. A big city, big Greek population, east coast, Masai GM.

I’ve argued this on the Raptors board but I don’t understand why Barnes value is so high?

Consider this player:

-4 years of below league average efficiency scoring

-never averaged 20+ PPG

-1 all-star appearance

-has never made an all-defense team

-is about to make the 25% max

Does that guy sound like the centerpiece in a trade for an MVP? Doesn’t to me.

Most valuable archetype. Big wing who can shoot, pass and he’s a play maker. Can be elite defender

Barnes can’t really shoot. He has some pretty big limitations as any type of scorer.

He has value but he’s beginning to look more like a 3rd option that he is a 1st or 2nd option. He does fit the big wing archetype but the luster is beginning to wear off after 4 years of somewhat anemic scoring.

[Johnny Bball]

Maybe Raps fans are just confused on appropriate value stars can bring back because of how mid Masai has been for years now

Or maybe you just haven't come to grips with the fact that he's leaving and that and going to just keep him there while he's unhappy. We saw what Butler and others have gone for when it was one or few teams they demanded, and near everything proposed/rumoured here is far better.

[RRyder823]

Maybe Raps fans are just confused on appropriate value stars can bring back because of how mid Masai has been for years now

Or maybe you just haven't come to grips with the fact that he's leaving and that and going to just keep him there while he's unhappy. We saw what Butler and others have gone for when it was one or few teams they demanded, and everything offered here is far better.

I'll take phrases said by Toronto fans since 2017 for 500 Alex

Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

[GiannisAnte34]

Maybe Raps fans are just confused on appropriate value stars can bring back because of how mid Masai has been for years now

Or maybe you just haven't come to grips with the fact that he's leaving and that and going to just keep him there while he's unhappy. We saw what Butler and others have gone for when it was one or few teams they demanded, and near everything proposed/rumoured here is far better.

We’re comparing a MVP in his prime to washed up Jimmy? Jimmy was also creating internal problems, directly challenging Pat of all people

Post ACL KD went for basically 10 FRP some of which were unprotected

[ConSarnit]

With how the East is shaping up in the near future (Pacers, Knicks, Cavs, Celtics?, Detroit + Orlando coming up), I fail to see how that roster is competitive.

Really? If Ingram can play 55-65 games and with how decent the Raps bench looked at the end of last year? I could totally see that being a 50+ win team. Giannis changes everything.

Yep. Ingram is as good if not better then prime Middleton. Ingram has shot creation on top of the elite shooting, making him deadly. Depending on who they keep like Quickley for example, the team can be crazy competitive. I don't see that much of a gap either, between all the contending teams.

Another thing, in the trade machine Scottie Barnes, ochai abaji, Gradey Dick , works. Although I'd like to keep Ochai, Having the starters and basically replacing Scottie with Giannis is something. It also gives the Raptors Jakobe, Jamaal Shead, Mogbo , on the bench with RJ at the 2 spot.

Where Depth and multiple scorers are the key to success (re: OKC, Pacers, even Minny/NYK), I think that a team of:

Poeltl - Giannis - Ingram - RJ - Quickley is damn good.

The Poeltl/Giannis fit is bad. Giannis has pretty
much played his entire prime with a spacing big (Lopez, Portis or Tucker). The Raptors roster as constructed above wouldn’t be good enough offensively (spacing issues) or defensively (IQ/ RJ/BI are average defensive players at best).

I do not believe that Giannis can cover all of the gap defensively like he used to. He’s still very good but we really haven’t seen him be a ridiculous defensive menace in a couple of years.

If the Raptors trade for Giannis they need to optimize his offense and that means not playing next to a zero spacing C. IQ/Ingram/Giannis are all good fits but the rest of the roster would probably require changes. I think the team would do well but I’m not a fan of marginalizing superstars talents by making them have to cover or work around other players.

[ConSarnit]

Maybe Raps fans are just confused on appropriate value stars can bring back because of how mid Masai has been for years now

Or maybe you just haven't come to grips with the fact that he's leaving and that and going to just keep him there while he's unhappy. We saw what Butler and others have gone for when it was one or few teams they demanded, and near everything proposed/rumoured here is far better.

Almost every team is going to have to pay through the nose for Giannis. Even if the Raptors make his list it isn’t going to be a “Raptors or bust” ultimatum. That means there is some type of bidding war. This isn’t an “AD only wants the Lakers” type scenario.

There is pretty much a 0% chance Giannis only wants the Raptors. They aren’t the Lakers. And if that’s the case then there is a bidding war and the price will be high.

[TheRaptor!]

Yeah I don't get it - Toronto is a great organization but what's left after a Giannis trade? Its honestly no better than a healthy Milwaukee team.

Quickly/Ingram/Poeltl and Toronto's bench is def better than the Bucks sans Lillard. AKA Kuzma, Portis, Trent, Porter Jr.

With how the East is shaping up in the near future (Pacers, Knicks, Cavs, Celtics?, Detroit + Orlando coming up), I fail to see how that roster is competitive.

If the majority of the Bucks office thinks like you, it would be great for us, as they obviously wouldnt want to gift us a championship

But in reality, I can tell you

Quickley
RJ
BI
Giannis
Poeltl

Is DEFINITELY a top 3 East starting line up. Most people dont follow the Raptors, see how OG and Siakam are getting their flowers now that they're off the team? Exactly

BI might not be a great 1st option and RJ might not be a great 2nd option, but push them both down a peg? Watch out.

[TheRaptor!]

Really? If Ingram can play 55-65 games and with how decent the Raps bench looked at the end of last year? I could totally see that being a 50+ win team. Giannis changes everything.

Yep. Ingram is as good if not better then prime Middleton. Ingram has shot creation on top of the elite shooting, making him deadly. Depending on who they keep like Quickley for example, the team can be crazy competitive. I don't see that much of a gap either, between all the contending teams.

Another thing, in the trade machine Scottie Barnes, ochai abaji, Gradey Dick , works. Although I'd like to keep Ochai, Having the starters and basically replacing Scottie with Giannis is something. It also gives the Raptors Jakobe, Jamaal Shead, Mogbo , on the bench with RJ at the 2 spot.

Where Depth and multiple scorers are the key to success (re: OKC, Pacers, even Minny/NYK), I think that a team of:

Poeltl - Giannis - Ingram - RJ - Quickley is damn good.

The Poeltl/Giannis fit is bad. Giannis has pretty
much played his entire prime with a spacing big (Lopez, Portis or Tucker). The Raptors roster as constructed above wouldn’t be good enough offensively (spacing issues) or defensively (IQ/ RJ/BI are average defensive players at best).

I do not believe that Giannis can cover all of the gap defensively like he used to. He’s still very good but we really haven’t seen him be a ridiculous defensive menace in a couple of years.

If the Raptors trade for Giannis they need to optimize his offense and that means not playing next to a zero spacing C. IQ/Ingram/Giannis are all good fits but the rest of the roster would probably require changes. I think the team would do well but I’m not a fan of marginalizing superstars talents by making them have to cover or work around other players.

Once Giannis comes here, we will make trades to fit around him, dont worry about that.

The damn Pistons gave the Knicks trouble and their main contributors in the PO consisted of Malik Beasley, Tobias Harris, Dennis Schroder and THJ.

Portis and Lopez both happen to be FA this year too. Maybe something can be worked out. Just get Giannis here first and I'm sure Masai will make the Raptors a feared team again

[Duffman100]

Maybe Raps fans are just confused on appropriate value stars can bring back because of how mid Masai has been for years now

Or maybe you just haven't come to grips with the fact that he's leaving and that and going to just keep him there while he's unhappy. We saw what Butler and others have gone for when it was one or few teams they demanded, and everything offered here is far better.

I'll take phrases said by Toronto fans since 2017 for 500 Alex

Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

Haha fair!

I will say (not that he's coming to Toronto) but this time does feel a bit different. I just don't see how the Bucks can build a winner around him in the near future.

[ConSarnit]

Yep. Ingram is as good if not better then prime Middleton. Ingram has shot creation on top of the elite shooting, making him deadly. Depending on who they keep like Quickley for example, the team can be crazy competitive. I don't see that much of a gap either, between all the contending teams.

Another thing, in the trade machine Scottie Barnes, ochai abaji, Gradey Dick , works. Although I'd like to keep Ochai, Having the starters and basically replacing Scottie with Giannis is something. It also gives the Raptors Jakobe, Jamaal Shead, Mogbo , on the bench with RJ at the 2 spot.

Where Depth and multiple scorers are the key to success (re: OKC, Pacers, even Minny/NYK), I think that a team of:

Poeltl - Giannis - Ingram - RJ - Quickley is damn good.

The Poeltl/Giannis fit is bad. Giannis has pretty
much played his entire prime with a spacing big (Lopez, Portis or Tucker). The Raptors roster as constructed above wouldn’t be good enough offensively (spacing issues) or defensively (IQ/ RJ/BI are average defensive players at best).

I do not believe that Giannis can cover all of the gap defensively like he used to. He’s still very good but we really haven’t seen him be a ridiculous defensive menace in a couple of years.

If the Raptors trade for Giannis they need to optimize his offense and that means not playing next to a zero spacing C. IQ/Ingram/Giannis are all good fits but the rest of the roster would probably require changes. I think the team would do well but I’m not a fan of marginalizing superstars talents by making them have to cover or work around other players.

Once Giannis comes here, we will make trades to fit around him, dont worry about that.

The damn Pistons gave the Knicks trouble and their main contributors in the PO consisted of Malik Beasley, Tobias Harris, Dennis Schroder and THJ.

Portis and Lopez both happen to be FA this year too. Maybe something can be worked out. Just get Giannis here first and I'm sure Masai will make the Raptors a feared team again

In an ideal world I would try to move Poeltl for some type of 3+D pf and then try to sign Lopez for the MLE. I would try and sell Giannis on playing C more often. Maybe Lopez starts but he’s more a 20-22 mpg guy. Maybe Horford could play the Lopez role.

Would Giannis want to play more C? I don’t know. But it would make things run smoother and probably make the gaps easier to fill in.

[Scalabrine]

I think Cavs should go after Gianni. Trade a package Garland and Allen or Ty Jerome and Mobley.

Thats extremely interesting. I haven't thoguht about that.

Ty Jerome is an unrestricted FA so can't be traded, but some sort of package around Garland/Allen might be pretty interesting to them if they are trying to still be a good team, given that they don't have any picks. The big problem is that the Cavs don't really have any picks to trade. 1 first and 2 swaps.

[ciueli]

The trade value for Giannis could be lower than the Bucks would like because he only locked in for 2 more seasons on his current contract, there's always going to be a concern he'll opt out in 2027 and sign with LA to play with Luka. Very likely a 2 season rental for any non-destination that trades for him.

[azcatz11]

I’ve argued this on the Raptors board but I don’t understand why Barnes value is so high?

Consider this player:

-4 years of below league average efficiency scoring

-never averaged 20+ PPG

-1 all-star appearance

-has never made an all-defense team

-is about to make the 25% max

Does that guy sound like the centerpiece in a trade for an MVP? Doesn’t to me.

Most valuable archetype. Big wing who can shoot, pass and he’s a play maker. Can be elite defender

Barnes can’t really shoot. He has some pretty big limitations as any type of scorer.

He has value but he’s beginning to look more like a 3rd option that he is a 1st or 2nd option. He does fit the big wing archetype but the luster is beginning to wear off after 4 years of somewhat anemic scoring.

His shooting is similar to Franz. He is still considered a blue chip prospect at this point IMO

[tsherkin]

His shooting is similar to Franz. He is still considered a blue chip prospect at this point IMO

This isn't true.

Barnes is a 30% career 3pt shooter who posts about 76, 77% at the line and is a below-average shooter from the corners.

Wagner has a pair of consecutive seasons playing 79+ games, taking 3.4 - 4.5 3PA/g at 35.4%+ from 3. He's a career 85.6% FT shooter and has 3 seasons over 45% from the corners.

Yes, he struggles on ATB 3s but he's a better corner shooter, a better FT shooter, a better mid-range shooter and has a better short game.

They aren't really similar as shooters except in their deficiencies above the break.