Windhorst: Raptors making noise around the league looking for a “big fish” // Giannis & Toronto "Mutual Interest"/KD too

[EH15]

I’m all for the Giannis move. At pretty much “whatever it takes” level.

But the idea that we’d be relying on Brandon Ingram when we’re trying to be “good, good” makes me a little bit queasy.

Not sure on the restrictions, but in 6 months if another star came up you can always trade him for another upgrade.

I think BI can can be traded now. There was no restriction after his extension.

[tsherkin]

RJ is his 2 years here has been a 99TS guy in a role that is a little larger than it should be. Jamal Murray on the championship Nugs was 98 for reference, Jaylen Brown was 100TS on the 2024 Celtics, Lowry was a 100TS on the 2019 Raptors, etc.

RJ has been a 99TS for us, IQ 98TS, Ingram has been a 98-104TS type of guy, etc.

Ingram was a 104 TS+ guy once, six years ago, in a 62-game season, and 102 the year after in 61 games. He has been 100 or lower the past 4 seasons.

I don't consider that BAD, just a limitation. And complementary players like Quick and RJ should generally be more efficient in their roles. RJ's been extended a little more than he should have been, but he doesn't have a lot of strengths on which to lean, AND shoots himself in the foot at the line, so that's very much an issue with him. And his issues predate his time in Toronto as well. Same with Quick.

Its not inconceivable to think you get a 110TS Giannis, Ingram bumps to 104/105TS as a release valve, and IQ/RJ could be 100-101TS type guys.

I struggle to see Ingram hitting that marker. I don't think he'll get to the line enough. Maybe if he kills it from 3 in volume, though. It's possible, but he's played alongside Zion with some health before. In 2024, Zion played 70 games, Ingram 64. Zion was a 23/6/5 guy on 61% TS, and it didn't do much to change things for BI at all.

I just see you post "league average" blah blah blah efficiency and seem to ignore a lot of context as to what league average means and what elite team actually look like. OKC just won 68 games with J-Dub at a 99TS, Dort at 102TS, Chet 104TS, Cason 98 TS, etc. But an élite piece (SGA 111TS) is why they are elite.

OKC was also a super elite defense. In the RS, best in the league at protecting the ball, too, and 2nd-best at generating turnovers. Their possession control was very, very strong. They were subsequently the best defense in the playoffs (to this point).

So it isn't quite the same thing. We won't magically be that level of defense, which changes our margin of error on offense if we want to be competitive. It isn't JUST about the scoring efficiency.

[Boogie!]

Iq, Barrett, Ingram, Giannis, Poeltl…

That’s an unstoppable starting lineup offensively…

That doesn't feel "unstoppable" to me, with a pair of guys who really don't stun offensively and another low-volume guy on top of that. And a third guy who's a decent second option.

We'd need more from IQ and RJ than they provided this year, that's for sure. Now, maybe they give it with the push of a real superstar, and with some health. It's possible. But the spacing isn't ideal, our bench doesn't stun on O (or with spacing), you HAVE to stash Barrett in the corner to make him any kind of spacing threat.

It looks like it would be a strong lineup, but "unstoppable" feels a little much to me. I'd love to try it and be proven wrong, though! It'd certainly be a fun one to watch.

The thought process would be that Giannis as a true Superstar should elevate everyone on the roster. If they aren't better with Giannis, we need to be trying to move them anyways.

They 100% will be. Like I said think those few games post og trade but with an actual superstar top 5 player in the league.

[TravisScott55]

Haliburton, Siakam and Turner are in the Finals...

Because Haliburton is much better than Quickley and Siakam is better than Ingram.

And Giannis is miles better than all 5.

Giannis > Hali
Ingram = Siakm
Turner = Quickley

Delusion

[TorontoBarneys]

Yeah Jak is the hard out. Giannis can't function with a non-shooter C, which is different than a poor shooting Barnes who can still setup above the arc. Immediate double teams, forcing kick-outs that lead to around the arc swings which a defense can easily recover to when you don't have 4-out.

You still need a second functional defender/help defender to mirror the twin tower defense Giannis is used to and that's where Barnes mixes in well, and likely better than the Lopez role (a little too slow in his old age) in Milwaukee.

The offense is the clear issue, where the only current role for both is as off-ball screeners at the arc in the motion offense while the other operates as the playmaking high post distributor. Barnes and Siakam worked a lot better here with Siakam having some respect for his shot.

Well on the bright side there are tons of those C's in the league and we've totally not been trying to get one for the last 6ish years and failed miserably

This is kinda what I've been saying, would replacing Scottie with GIannis be an improvement, yeah without a shadow of a doubt. But overall the ceiling still aint that great since Giannis has absolutely zero range and having a C with the same issue kinda negates most of the benefit of Giannis on the team.

Ya, Poeltl is a horrific fit with Giannis. The spacing will still suck bigtime with Scottie or Giannis.

Giannis is the smokescreen. We are going all in on Booker.

[Clutch0z24]

Don't think we have the assets without making the team another Bucks.

Bucks 2nd and 3rd options on that team right now are Portis(Might walk in free agency)/GTJR....Lopez is gone next year, Lillard is out the year, Kevin Porter Jr is your starting PG...And Kuzma is also one of your go to guys...

I swear some of these guys don't even know who is actually playing on that Bucks team its an absolute dumpster fire with no way to upgrade or improve....

We would potentially have IQ/Ingram/RJ/Yak + Young guys on the bench who have the possibility to take a leap like Walter/Shaed/Mogbo...

We likely make another move following the Giannis trade so who knows what players are on the team Post trade...

If Giannis wants the Raptors and demands to stay in the east Barnes/Dick/Ochai #9 + Alot of picks + swaps would be one of the better starting offers a team in the East can make....If you have to add RJ instead of Dick do that as well...

Alot of posters are also trying to talk about who fits with Giannis post trade like RJ etc....Who gives a damn about fit just get him in the door first and worry about that later... I swear guys are forgetting how good Giannis is....This is a legit top 3 player and one of the all time greats...

Giannis/Ingram are a legit duo and you have IQ/RJ or Dick/Yak to make a follow up move if you wan't to add a different player to that duo....Vets & Buy out options to fill the team out more as well as some of the young guys taking leaps with development....

[TimeForChange]

If you're trading for Giannis, then you better be trading for a PG too.

[Scase]

Well on the bright side there are tons of those C's in the league and we've totally not been trying to get one for the last 6ish years and failed miserably

This is kinda what I've been saying, would replacing Scottie with GIannis be an improvement, yeah without a shadow of a doubt. But overall the ceiling still aint that great since Giannis has absolutely zero range and having a C with the same issue kinda negates most of the benefit of Giannis on the team.

Ya, Poeltl is a horrific fit with Giannis. The spacing will still suck bigtime with Scottie or Giannis.

Giannis is the smokescreen. We are going all in on Booker.

NGL, I would prefer Book over Giannis. Not cause he's a better player at all, but we likely could keep Scottie and it definitely makes us a better shooting team.

[Kurtz]

RJ is his 2 years here has been a 99TS guy in a role that is a little larger than it should be. Jamal Murray on the championship Nugs was 98 for reference, Jaylen Brown was 100TS on the 2024 Celtics, Lowry was a 100TS on the 2019 Raptors, etc.

RJ has been a 99TS for us, IQ 98TS, Ingram has been a 98-104TS type of guy, etc.

Ingram was a 104 TS+ guy once, six years ago, in a 62-game season, and 102 the year after in 61 games. He has been 100 or lower the past 4 seasons.

I don't consider that BAD, just a limitation. And complementary players like Quick and RJ should generally be more efficient in their roles. RJ's been extended a little more than he should have been, but he doesn't have a lot of strengths on which to lean, AND shoots himself in the foot at the line, so that's very much an issue with him. And his issues predate his time in Toronto as well. Same with Quick.

Its not inconceivable to think you get a 110TS Giannis, Ingram bumps to 104/105TS as a release valve, and IQ/RJ could be 100-101TS type guys.

I struggle to see Ingram hitting that marker. I don't think he'll get to the line enough. Maybe if he kills it from 3 in volume, though. It's possible, but he's played alongside Zion with some health before. In 2024, Zion played 70 games, Ingram 64. Zion was a 23/6/5 guy on 61% TS, and it didn't do much to change things for BI at all.

I just see you post "league average" blah blah blah efficiency and seem to ignore a lot of context as to what league average means and what elite team actually look like. OKC just won 68 games with J-Dub at a 99TS, Dort at 102TS, Chet 104TS, Cason 98 TS, etc. But an élite piece (SGA 111TS) is why they are elite.

OKC was also a super elite defense. In the RS, best in the league at protecting the ball, too, and 2nd-best at generating turnovers. Their possession control was very, very strong. They were subsequently the best defense in the playoffs (to this point).

So it isn't quite the same thing. We won't magically be that level of defense, which changes our margin of error on offense if we want to be competitive. It isn't JUST about the scoring efficiency.

I think what you need to try to incorporate into your evaluations is context. For example, BI was an efficient scorer in the two years when he played next to a legit point-guard (Jrue, Ball). He became less efficient when their pgs became Alvarado and CJ Mcollum, which, I think is pretty logical.

[Brinbe]

I think IQ is exactly the type of PG that can thrive/be elevated playing next to a Giannis as he won't have to do as much on-ball and has a shot on him, which is the most important thing. Coming into his prime years, we should be expecting the best to come from him in the next 3-4 years.

The most important thing is finding a defensive stretch big who can play that Lopez role.

[Ado05]

Believing a Doug smith report is crazy.

[Scase]

RJ is his 2 years here has been a 99TS guy in a role that is a little larger than it should be. Jamal Murray on the championship Nugs was 98 for reference, Jaylen Brown was 100TS on the 2024 Celtics, Lowry was a 100TS on the 2019 Raptors, etc.

RJ has been a 99TS for us, IQ 98TS, Ingram has been a 98-104TS type of guy, etc.

Ingram was a 104 TS+ guy once, six years ago, in a 62-game season, and 102 the year after in 61 games. He has been 100 or lower the past 4 seasons.

I don't consider that BAD, just a limitation. And complementary players like Quick and RJ should generally be more efficient in their roles. RJ's been extended a little more than he should have been, but he doesn't have a lot of strengths on which to lean, AND shoots himself in the foot at the line, so that's very much an issue with him. And his issues predate his time in Toronto as well. Same with Quick.

Its not inconceivable to think you get a 110TS Giannis, Ingram bumps to 104/105TS as a release valve, and IQ/RJ could be 100-101TS type guys.

I struggle to see Ingram hitting that marker. I don't think he'll get to the line enough. Maybe if he kills it from 3 in volume, though. It's possible, but he's played alongside Zion with some health before. In 2024, Zion played 70 games, Ingram 64. Zion was a 23/6/5 guy on 61% TS, and it didn't do much to change things for BI at all.

I just see you post "league average" blah blah blah efficiency and seem to ignore a lot of context as to what league average means and what elite team actually look like. OKC just won 68 games with J-Dub at a 99TS, Dort at 102TS, Chet 104TS, Cason 98 TS, etc. But an élite piece (SGA 111TS) is why they are elite.

OKC was also a super elite defense. In the RS, best in the league at protecting the ball, too, and 2nd-best at generating turnovers. Their possession control was very, very strong. They were subsequently the best defense in the playoffs (to this point).

So it isn't quite the same thing. We won't magically be that level of defense, which changes our margin of error on offense if we want to be competitive. It isn't JUST about the scoring efficiency.

I think what you need to try to incorporate into your evaluations is context. For example, BI was an efficient scorer in the two years when he played next to a legit point-guard (Jrue, Ball). He became less efficient when their pgs became Alvarado and CJ Mcollum, which, I think is pretty logical.

So where do we get this "legit point-guard" from? Cause it sure as hell isn't IQ. I'm not against revamping the entire roster if we snag Giannis, but I imagine that would take at least a couple years + more time to have everyone mesh, and then now you've got Giannis on a new contract/UFA. Unless you're just talking BI efficiency in general when next to a proper pg?

That said I don't think that holds a lot of water either, he's managed roughly the same efficiency with Ball/Jrue, as he did with CJ (LOL) McCollum. Maybe he just is what he is after 9 years in the league?

[Clutch0z24]

Believing a Doug smith report is crazy.

For me its more the Windy report that we are looking for Big fish....Also the reports by many suggesting he wants to stay in the East....Put 2 and 2 together something is brewing there....Also Masai/Giannis connection.....Doug has little to do with everyone speculating right now for me anyways...

[NinjaBro]

Believing a Doug smith report is crazy.

Only if he writes what we want to hear.

[Kurtz]

Ingram was a 104 TS+ guy once, six years ago, in a 62-game season, and 102 the year after in 61 games. He has been 100 or lower the past 4 seasons.

I don't consider that BAD, just a limitation. And complementary players like Quick and RJ should generally be more efficient in their roles. RJ's been extended a little more than he should have been, but he doesn't have a lot of strengths on which to lean, AND shoots himself in the foot at the line, so that's very much an issue with him. And his issues predate his time in Toronto as well. Same with Quick.



I struggle to see Ingram hitting that marker. I don't think he'll get to the line enough. Maybe if he kills it from 3 in volume, though. It's possible, but he's played alongside Zion with some health before. In 2024, Zion played 70 games, Ingram 64. Zion was a 23/6/5 guy on 61% TS, and it didn't do much to change things for BI at all.



OKC was also a super elite defense. In the RS, best in the league at protecting the ball, too, and 2nd-best at generating turnovers. Their possession control was very, very strong. They were subsequently the best defense in the playoffs (to this point).

So it isn't quite the same thing. We won't magically be that level of defense, which changes our margin of error on offense if we want to be competitive. It isn't JUST about the scoring efficiency.

I think what you need to try to incorporate into your evaluations is context. For example, BI was an efficient scorer in the two years when he played next to a legit point-guard (Jrue, Ball). He became less efficient when their pgs became Alvarado and CJ Mcollum, which, I think is pretty logical.

So where do we get this "legit point-guard" from? Cause it sure as hell isn't IQ. I'm not against revamping the entire roster if we snag Giannis, but I imagine that would take at least a couple years + more time to have everyone mesh, and then now you've got Giannis on a new contract/UFA. Unless you're just talking BI efficiency in general when next to a proper pg?

That said I don't think that holds a lot of water either, he's managed roughly the same efficiency with Ball/Jrue, as he did with CJ (LOL) McCollum. Maybe he just is what he is after 9 years in the league?

Well, there'd be a huge playmaking jump from Aldorado and McCollum to IQ/Shead/Giannis. With respect to 9 years, that's a long time I'll grant you, but Lowry, for example didn't emerge as a star until his 10th year, when he got more opportunity.

I guess the question is, is it more likely that he peaked at 22, or that he just couldn't deliver his best due to injuries and the worst roster construction I think I've ever seen. Look at what happened to Dyson Daniels once he ecaped that diseaster.

[ForeverTFC]

If you're trading for Giannis, then you better be trading for a PG too.

Why? Giannis likes to handle the ball and initiate. There is no need for a typical PG on a Giannis team. We also saw enough of him and Dame to know he does not like being a screen setter in pick and rolls. IQ is just fine as the lead guard on a Giannis team long as we have a good defender beside him (read: RJ cannot be the 2).

[MiamiSPX]

33 pages and only 1 guy claiming to have inside information? Disappointing.

[ForeverTFC]

Believing a Doug smith report is crazy.

To be fair, I don't think many here are speculating off of the Doug report. Most are going off Windhorst.

Casuals/those outside Toronto? Have to give them a pass, they are not familiar with Doug's game.

[TimeForChange]

Read on Twitter

HE GONE

[tecumseh18]

33 pages and only 1 guy claiming to have inside information? Disappointing.

I can only assume those guys were perma-banned. But it was hilarious too. So many of us wanted to BELIEVE!!! Even me.