Giannis to Raptors

[GiannisAnte34]

I mean Giannis would be joining SGA's team. I think Giannis would understand that. Not that it matters.

The point is SGA is seen currently as the better player and that's okay. Its no knock on Giannis to acknowledge Joker and SGA lol.

Fans can be wrong. They were wrong that KD was along for the ride on Golden State. The Warriors absolutely needed KD to beat those LeBron Cavs teams. Curry and KD were so close on talent that you could argue either one of them was 1A

The same thing would be true for SGA and Giannis. What I’m challenging is the notion that SGA would be this clear 1A to 1B thing

[One_and_Done]

Odd you couldn't provide a single one of them. This is a bad habit you have. You go into every thread, take a dump on it, but provide nothing constructive. No reasoning, no ways to improve it.

Please try contributing to discussion.

I mean, I provided several here
viewtopic.php?t=2460108&start=20#p118694770

But let me give the summary of reasons below.
1) Giannis probably doesn't want to leave the Bucks
2) If he does, he's going to be going to a contender, which the Raptors won't be if they could trade enough to get him. There'd be nothing left on the roster worth talking about after putting it into the trade.
3) other teams can offer better packages
4) Giannis, if he asks out, likely prefers to play for those other teams when factoring in location alone. Toronto is a nice city, but it's not a FA destination. It won't be able to compete with places like Brooklyn, and he already said his favourite place to go was Florida
5) The Raptors best young player, assuming they could keep him in the trade, is a horrible fit with Giannis

That's 5 pretty compelling reasons it's not happening. There is no way to fix the trade, because of the fundamental problem that Giannis is not motivated to leave his hometown team to play for another weak support cast. The teams are just not good trade partners.

Read on Twitter

And when you read the 'report' you'll see it's super vague speculation with no sources cited, by a guy writing for the Toronto Star, who has an incentive to say such things to his readers.

[GiannisAnte34]

He does, but vs getting traded somewhere like Spurs, Boston or OKC for instances where he would be the 2nd piece to fans ala KD was to Steph. If he goes to Houston, Toronto or Brooklyn he is the unquestioned #1 to the fans and front office.

1) not every player is concerned with arbitrary fan All-Time player ranking. I really doubt Giannis cares about that kind of thing especially to the degree KD did

2) it’s very obvious that there is only one player in the league you could say would be 1A over Giannis and that’s Jokic

Even in the hypothetical pairing of Giannis with SGA since OKC has the assets, it would be made very clear that Giannis is 1A. His stats would be ridiculous on a team that stacked

It's not about who's actually better, but who has top billing with the fans. SGA is both an MVP and has a history with the fanbase. Wembanyama has a significant headstart with the fans in San Antonio. Jalen Brunson is the face of that Knicks team. Brooklyn is a blank slate, so is Toronto if you're moving Barnes for him.

Not saying it's the be all and end all, but it's what I think the original comment is trying to say.

Ok Cade has a head start with the fans in Detroit but to suggest he’d be the “leader of the Pistons” if Giannis went there is pretty silly to suggest

Ditto with Brunson. Ditto with Wemby. SGA at least has a case with an MVP and title

Still, it would be a Kobe/Shaq or Curry/KD situation if Giannis paired with SGA. Neither of them would be clearly better even if fans have some narrative made up about it

[Texas Chuck]

Guy with Giannis in his screen name is objective. Everyone else has a narrative.

[Jojothewhale]

I don't even care about the Giannis stuff anymore. I'm losing my mind over someone saying Shaq = Kobe and if you disagree, it's arbitrary fan bull. I thought we had collectively given up that particular mania by now.

[JonHeist]

Guy with Giannis in his screen name is objective. Everyone else has a narrative.

Is your argument that SGA is clearly better than Giannis? (obviously wrong)

Or is it that OKC fans would always like SGA more and SGA would receive more credit for their success? (obviously correct)

Makes a big difference. Guessing GA34 is assuming you mean the first, but you actually mean the second.

[JonHeist]

Spoiler:

I disagree. Oh not that other teams can't make better offers. They absolutely can. But I believe that if Giannis comes to the Bucks and says trade him he is going to have a specific team in mind(not saying its the Raptpors, but it will be a team) and I think as long as that team puts together a real serious offer(Barnes + picks/swaps is serious enough even if not ideal) then I think the Bucks help Giannis gets where he wants.

I could be wrong and I know people are going to point out Dame to the Bucks and not the Heat so I'm freely conceding I could be very very wrong. But that's my read on it. That the Bucks will really try and work with him rather than just coldly taking the best offer without concern for what he wants.

you're very wrong

first about giannis requesting a specific team

and also about the owners being willing to go along with that

doing giannis a favor would cost the owners at least a billion dollars

I could be wrong
How do you know with such certainty what Giannis might do in the future?
How do you know the Bucks governor wouldn't? I'm not saying you are wrong and I am right, but how do you know this with such certainty?
And finally I'm going to need to see your math. That's a bold statement. I'd love to see you back it up with some hard numbers.

I can only read it how I read it. But openly admit I could be way off. You have a lot of absolutes.

What % chance would you give that Giannis requests a trade to a specific team and ends up there this offseason?

Give me your number and I'll give you some math to tell you why you're wrong, if I disagree.

[Texas Chuck]

Guy with Giannis in his screen name is objective. Everyone else has a narrative.

Is your argument that SGA is clearly better than Giannis? (obviously wrong)

Or is it that OKC fans would always like SGA more and SGA would receive more credit for their success? (obviously correct)

Makes a big difference. Guessing GA34 is assuming you mean the first, but you actually mean the second.

I mostly mean the 2nd. I think SGA clearly had a better year this year, but Giannis obviously was great too and has a longer track record at their level. Not worth fighting over the 1st. But it would be SGA's team and I think Giannis would walk in the door acknowledging that.

[Texas Chuck]

Spoiler:

you're very wrong

first about giannis requesting a specific team

and also about the owners being willing to go along with that

doing giannis a favor would cost the owners at least a billion dollars

I could be wrong
How do you know with such certainty what Giannis might do in the future?
How do you know the Bucks governor wouldn't? I'm not saying you are wrong and I am right, but how do you know this with such certainty?
And finally I'm going to need to see your math. That's a bold statement. I'd love to see you back it up with some hard numbers.

I can only read it how I read it. But openly admit I could be way off. You have a lot of absolutes.

What % chance would you give that Giannis requests a trade to a specific team and ends up there this offseason?

Give me your number and I'll give you some math to tell you why you're wrong if I disagree.

I wanted the math on the billion dollars. Just to be clear.

I would put the odds that he asks out at all at say 30%. That its one specific team if he asks out, pretty high > 50% for sure, so real rough math here, probably a 15-20 percent change he both asks out and to one specific team.

I think he's going to give them a chance to get creative with the roster. But I think for the first time the chance he doesn't actually exists. The Dame injury and the Kuzma disaster and the lack of assets to course correct means he would be choosing to stay knowing he has no serious chance to compete. As I've said dozens of times, I hope he makes that choice. I even think he makes that choice. But I'm not longer certain.

[GiannisAnte34]

Guy with Giannis in his screen name is objective. Everyone else has a narrative.

Is your argument that SGA is clearly better than Giannis? (obviously wrong)

Or is it that OKC fans would always like SGA more and SGA would receive more credit for their success? (obviously correct)

Makes a big difference. Guessing GA34 is assuming you mean the first, but you actually mean the second.

I mostly mean the 2nd. I think SGA clearly had a better year this year, but Giannis obviously was great too and has a longer track record at their level. Not worth fighting over the 1st. But it would be SGA's team and I think Giannis would walk in the door acknowledging that.

Getting back to the original point that Giannis would want to go to Toronto so he DOESN’T have to acknowledge someone else as being the “leader of the team.” Why would he have to leave Milwaukee if this is a sticking point? He is a God in Milwaukee already.

[tester551]

Bucks get Barnes, RJ, #9 (drafted), TOR26FRP, TOR28FRP, TOR30FRP, TOR32FRP

Raptors get Giannis


Raptors go all in with IQ, Dick, BI, Giannis, Poeltl, they'd bring back Boucher and have access to full MLE ($14m) and BAE ($5m) to go hunting on free agent market.

Bucks get a couple young starters, pick 9 and some nice future unprotected picks.
Similar to the Gobert trade except a much better pick drafted (9 vs 22) and actual decent players (Barnes+RJ) for Giannis vs filler for Gobert.

Don't think Giannis is traded this cheaply.
I think Raptors need to give up more value here...

[zimpy27]

I mean, I provided several here
viewtopic.php?t=2460108&start=20#p118694770

But let me give the summary of reasons below.
1) Giannis probably doesn't want to leave the Bucks
2) If he does, he's going to be going to a contender, which the Raptors won't be if they could trade enough to get him. There'd be nothing left on the roster worth talking about after putting it into the trade.
3) other teams can offer better packages
4) Giannis, if he asks out, likely prefers to play for those other teams when factoring in location alone. Toronto is a nice city, but it's not a FA destination. It won't be able to compete with places like Brooklyn, and he already said his favourite place to go was Florida
5) The Raptors best young player, assuming they could keep him in the trade, is a horrible fit with Giannis

That's 5 pretty compelling reasons it's not happening. There is no way to fix the trade, because of the fundamental problem that Giannis is not motivated to leave his hometown team to play for another weak support cast. The teams are just not good trade partners.

Read on Twitter

And when you read the 'report' you'll see it's super vague speculation with no sources cited, by a guy writing for the Toronto Star, who has an incentive to say such things to his readers.

It's valid discussion. That's the point.

[Texas Chuck]

Is your argument that SGA is clearly better than Giannis? (obviously wrong)

Or is it that OKC fans would always like SGA more and SGA would receive more credit for their success? (obviously correct)

Makes a big difference. Guessing GA34 is assuming you mean the first, but you actually mean the second.

I mostly mean the 2nd. I think SGA clearly had a better year this year, but Giannis obviously was great too and has a longer track record at their level. Not worth fighting over the 1st. But it would be SGA's team and I think Giannis would walk in the door acknowledging that.

Getting back to the original point that Giannis would want to go to Toronto so he DOESN’T have to acknowledge someone else as being the “leader of the team.” Why would he have to leave Milwaukee if this is a sticking point? He is a God in Milwaukee already.

He's always going to be a favorite son there. If he wants to come back and retire and be king of the city he can. I don't think Giannis needs to be the face of another franchise though. I don't think he cares. I think he already knows how great he is, the basketball world knows how great he is and we've seen other stars with far bigger egos team up and letting another guy be seen more as "the guy".

You think a lot less of Giannis than I do I guess which is kinda weird considering your other posts. But you seem to think he's as insecure about his greatness as you are about it and I just don't believe that to be true at all.

[jredsaz]

I think the Raptors need to keep Barnes, IQ, Dick, and RJ or BI to contend with Giannis. Can they put together a package around RJ or BI + Poeltl + their picks?

How do they keep Barnes? Why would they keep Barnes. He doesn’t fit with Giannis and he is the most valuable asset the Raps have.

One post above you, in response to someone saying Barnes & Giannis overlapped and that he had to be in the trade, I wrote:

Do they overlap? Barnes struggles at creating for himself and he's not as forceful on the glass as I'd like him too be, but he has shot the 3 well for stretches...especially when they're created for him, with the kind of FT numbers that suggest his mechanics are sound...and passes the ball well. So I think he'd fit very well in the front court next to Giannis like a better defending Portis.

Maybe I'm just not as high on him but I don't think he's a particularly great centerpiece, despite him being an exciting defender with playmaking chops, and see him in that same '2b/3a on a good team' tier that I see Ingram, Barrett, and Quickley; I just don't know that he has the tools to become a 1b/2a caliber scorer.

So if Giannis wants and is able to force his way to Toronto, I'm not sure which of those 2b/3a guys you get makes a meaningful difference unless one just fits better with a post-Giannis Bucks. So if Bropez dips + Dame is done as an elite player, I don't see why Barnes would be any better a fit than Ingram or Barrett

Man, Barnes can’t shoot and that’s a problem if they get Giannis.

[JonHeist]

Spoiler:

I could be wrong
How do you know with such certainty what Giannis might do in the future?
How do you know the Bucks governor wouldn't? I'm not saying you are wrong and I am right, but how do you know this with such certainty?
And finally I'm going to need to see your math. That's a bold statement. I'd love to see you back it up with some hard numbers.

I can only read it how I read it. But openly admit I could be way off. You have a lot of absolutes.

What % chance would you give that Giannis requests a trade to a specific team and ends up there this offseason?

Give me your number and I'll give you some math to tell you why you're wrong if I disagree.

I would put the odds that he asks out at all at say 30%. That its one specific team if he asks out, pretty high > 50% for sure, so real rough math here, probably a 15-20 percent change he both asks out and to one specific team.

I think he's going to give them a chance to get creative with the roster. But I think for the first time the chance he doesn't actually exists. The Dame injury and the Kuzma disaster and the lack of assets to course correct means he would be choosing to stay knowing he has no serious chance to compete. As I've said dozens of times, I hope he makes that choice. I even think he makes that choice. But I'm not longer certain.

you forgot the "and ends up there this offseason" part of the calculation -- that's what takes it from ~15% to ~1%

I wanted the math on the billion dollars. Just to be clear.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/194662/franchise-value-of-the-milwaukee-bucks-of-the-nba-since-2006/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/194744/franchise-value-of-the-washington-wizards-of-the-nba-since-2006/

Pre-giannis the bucks were the absolute bottom of the barrel NBA wise, a conference finals appearance in 2001 was the only real success in living memory for most fans -- he singlehandedly dragged this franchise into relevance

since drafting giannis the buck's valuation has 13.82x'd

compare that to a bottle-of-the-barrel franchise like the wizards who have 'only' 10.33x'd in valuation over that same time period

apply that wizards multiple to the Bucks' and they're 'only' worth 3.223 Bil instead of 4.00

my ~billion dollar estimate on his impact on the franchise's value going forward seems spot on, if I do say so myself

Just imagine the canceled season tickets if he gets traded for scottie f'ing barnes lol

the only teams that can make an offer good enough to both contend themselves and have the bucks not come dead last in attendance this year are the rockets (amen, hella picks), spurs (harper, castle, picks) and maybe the mavs (flagg)

[Texas Chuck]

yeah I don't think your billion dollar math checks out but whatever.

I definitely don't think that if Giannis asks out he only gets where he wants 1/15 times. Feels optimistic for a guy who wants him to stay. I tried to have real numbers at your request. I didn't sugar it any direction.

[GiannisAnte34]

I mostly mean the 2nd. I think SGA clearly had a better year this year, but Giannis obviously was great too and has a longer track record at their level. Not worth fighting over the 1st. But it would be SGA's team and I think Giannis would walk in the door acknowledging that.

Getting back to the original point that Giannis would want to go to Toronto so he DOESN’T have to acknowledge someone else as being the “leader of the team.” Why would he have to leave Milwaukee if this is a sticking point? He is a God in Milwaukee already.

He's always going to be a favorite son there. If he wants to come back and retire and be king of the city he can. I don't think Giannis needs to be the face of another franchise though. I don't think he cares. I think he already knows how great he is, the basketball world knows how great he is and we've seen other stars with far bigger egos team up and letting another guy be seen more as "the guy".

You think a lot less of Giannis than I do I guess which is kinda weird considering your other posts. But you seem to think he's as insecure about his greatness as you are about it and I just don't believe that to be true at all.

Maybe I think more of Giannis than you do because I believe he doesn’t feel the need to chase rings.

[JonHeist]

yeah I don't think your billion dollar math checks out but whatever.

Spoiler:

I definitely don't think that if Giannis asks out he only gets where he wants 1/15 times. Feels optimistic for a guy who wants him to stay. I tried to have real numbers at your request. I didn't sugar it any direction.

c'mon I spent like 10 mins on that, gimme a better rebuttal than "nah"

[Troubadour]

Is your argument that SGA is clearly better than Giannis? (obviously wrong)

Or is it that OKC fans would always like SGA more and SGA would receive more credit for their success? (obviously correct)

Makes a big difference. Guessing GA34 is assuming you mean the first, but you actually mean the second.

I mostly mean the 2nd. I think SGA clearly had a better year this year, but Giannis obviously was great too and has a longer track record at their level. Not worth fighting over the 1st. But it would be SGA's team and I think Giannis would walk in the door acknowledging that.

Getting back to the original point that Giannis would want to go to Toronto so he DOESN’T have to acknowledge someone else as being the “leader of the team.” Why would he have to leave Milwaukee if this is a sticking point? He is a God in Milwaukee already.

1) He'd leave Milwaukee because they have no future 1sts to trade, no co-stars, an ageing supporting cast, and no path to improve the roster.
2) He'd probably prefer to play in the Eastern Conference given the clearer path to winning a title.
3) If you accept points 1 and 2, you're really only left with a handful of teams that a) have enough to trade for Giannis and b) would have enough left on the team to make it a compelling destination for him.

By my count, those teams are Toronto, Boston, New York, Cleveland, and Detroit.
- Would the Celtics trade Jaylen Brown (and more) for Giannis? Maybe, but I don't know if that's the rebuilding package the Bucks want.
- Would the Knicks trade KAT (and more) for Giannis? Definitely, but that's definitely not the rebuilding package the Bucks want.
- Would the Pistons trade anyone not named Cade Cunningham? Probably, but it feels light to get Giannis.
- The Bucks would love Evan Mobley in exchange for Giannis, but I don't know if the Cavs do that.

In my opinion, that leaves Toronto as the team that has the under-25 All-Star, complete control of all their future 1sts, and a couple prospects on rookie deals you can bring along for the rebuild. For Giannis, he plays alongside a roster that has enough going on to make them relevant in the East.

If the Bucks are weighing Giannis' preference in this process, I also think Toronto would be higher on his list of preferred destinations than you might think.

Someone above rightly points out that the Spurs, Rockets, and Mavs all have better offers than that. If the reporting is incorrect and Giannis would happily go to the Western Conference or even that is his preference, he's probably destined for Texas. If the Bucks decide to take his opinion on that matter seriously, I think there is a chance he ends up some place else.

[Texas Chuck]

yeah I don't think your billion dollar math checks out but whatever.

Spoiler:

I definitely don't think that if Giannis asks out he only gets where he wants 1/15 times. Feels optimistic for a guy who wants him to stay. I tried to have real numbers at your request. I didn't sugar it any direction.

c'mon I spent like 10 mins on that, gimme a better rebuttal than "nah"

Let's call it even. I broke down my percentage of Giannis to a specific team and you just said nah 1%.