Windhorst: Raptors making noise around the league looking for a “big fish” // Giannis & Toronto "Mutual Interest"/KD too

[YogurtProducer]

Delusion is thinking the gap between Siakam and Ingram + Turner and Quickley is greater than the gap between Giannis and Haliburton. Giannis is a top 3-5 player — a true superstar in the league — whereas Haliburton is a borderline All-NBA player. Giannis is one of maybe 5 players that singlehandedly would elevate almost any team in the league to contender status. That is far more important than the extra defence that Siakam and Turner give the Pacers while Ingram and IQ are slightly better offensive players.

Haliburton being hella overrated on here. Before this playoff run I bet most people wouldn’t have even considered him a top 15 player in the league and now all of the sudden he’s basically as good as Giannis? Okay lol.

Yep.

Ingram and Siakam are the same tier of player. Both are all-star caliber guys who might make an all-nba team if the stars align.
Quick and Turner are both guys who are 4th/5th starters. I like Turner, but he has just as many flaws as IQ does. He is a center who averaged 6.5rpg and is not some elite defender. Blocks shots but isn't a great defender by any means.

You add Giannis to this team and we are easily at Indiana's level.

You going to add something to the conversation or no?

[Prestige]

I don’t think the Raptors have the assets the Bucks are looking for. Several other teams can offer a superior package.

[MoneyBall]

Not, when one of them is Giannis. Just his presence alone, will suck the defense in to him and creates opportunities for everybody else.

Can you name me the last team that made the NBA Finals with both frontcourt players being poor long range shooters?

22/23 Heat played the majority of minutes with Bam at C and Butler at PF

You do not want to leave Butler open for a three, especially in the playoffs.

[JB7]

Problem is defensively, JJJ wants to play the same role as Giannis does, help defender (shot blocker). He also doesn't want to be under the basket taking the abuse.

lol basically looking for a unicorn if you want a 5 willing to bang down low, protect the rim, rebound and be able to provide spacing on the offensive end

Pretty much.

I would take my chances on not having a 5 banging down low. Who realistically is a 5 that is doing that right now anyways in the East? Embiid? But realistically I am not to worried about Philly anymore.

Jokic yes, but in a playoff series I think Giannis or JJJ could suck it up and just guard the guy.

Yes, it is virtually impossible to find that mix. But that's why I would lean towards keeping Yak, which is more realistic, and it makes Giannis happy, because he won't be relied on to do the dirty work for the majority of the game.

For key moments in the game, they just need to find a different option than Yak. Whether that is Mogbo developing his corner 3's, or using another guard on the floor and going small with Giannis at C and BI at PF.

[Jerry Lucas]

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[TravisScott55]

Yep.

Ingram and Siakam are the same tier of player. Both are all-star caliber guys who might make an all-nba team if the stars align.
Quick and Turner are both guys who are 4th/5th starters. I like Turner, but he has just as many flaws as IQ does. He is a center who averaged 6.5rpg and is not some elite defender. Blocks shots but isn't a great defender by any means.

You add Giannis to this team and we are easily at Indiana's level.

You going to add something to the conversation or no?

Okay so even if you guys believe Ingram and Quickley are on the same level as Siakam and Turner, the Pacers also had contributions from guys like Aaron Neismith, Andrew Nembhard and Benedict Mathurin. If the Raptors trade Scottie, and probably RJ and or Gradey, who are the depth pieces you see helping win a playoff series?

[ArthurVandelay]

I don’t think the Raptors have the assets the Bucks are looking for. Several other teams can offer a superior package.

You're right.

Giannis also going to play a big factor in determining where he plays next year so the best package might not be the package Milwaukee takes.

Personally, I think Brooklyn is where he ends up. They will have the ability to save Milwaukee all kinds of $$$

[OakleyDokely]

I don’t think the Raptors have the assets the Bucks are looking for. Several other teams can offer a superior package.

Raps have a top young player in Barnes, they have secondary cheap young players in Walter, Dick etc, they have a top 10 pick in the current draft, they have all their own future picks and even their salary match isn't just useless filler (RJ). The Raps can offer basically whatever type of package the Bucks want. Whether it makes sense to do it is another question.

[Fairview4Life]

I don’t think the Raptors have the assets the Bucks are looking for. Several other teams can offer a superior package.

Couple things - "superior" is subjective and completely dependent on the Bucks. They don't have their own picks until the heat death of the universe. They may not consider a picks and youth offer superior offer. Who's to say they aren't also looking at the state of the east and thinking they can make the playoffs with a deeper team.

Not every team will be willing to offer a superior package.

I don't think we're getting Giannis, but I don't think the kind of offer that we think should be required is the one the Bucks are going to end up getting.

[Clutch0z24]

The only questions to ask regarding the Giannis stuff is:

1.) Is the 8-9 man rotation post-Giannis a great one?
2.) If not, is there some room left to upgrade it through a trade, e.g. RJ+picks for something?

Giannis trade is bizarre because both Poeltl and Barnes are seemingly bad fits with him. I think if you do swing for Giannis, more than one trade is required to properly retrofit the roster around him. I think Ingram & Quickley are key pieces to surround him with and need to stay.

Can you trade for Gianni's without giving up Scottie?

RJ, Poeltl, Dick and 3 first round picks and 2 swaps...is that feel like enough?

Then you have
Quickley/Shead
Agbaji/Walter
Ingram/Battle
Barnes/Mogbo
Giannis

No....Too many other teams can trump us in the trade package department....Barnes is the whole reason we would even get on the phone with the Bucks....Without Barnes being offered the Bucks are not picking up our calls considering teams like the Rockets/Spurs and potentially OKC could come in with a big time offer which at that point the Bucks will just ignore Giannis East request if no team in the East comes with a proper package to rival what the west teams are offering....Bucks at the end of the day have to look out for themselves in this deal just like if we were the team with Giannis we would want the best packages available....Its not like Giannis is on his walk year here...

[ATLTimekeeper]

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I would do that in a heartbeat.

I think any version of Giannis + Ingram + shooters is going to win you a lot of games.

[WuTang_OG]

If Giannis wants to stay in the East, Scottie is the best young asset in trade even in a down year.

[YogurtProducer]

You going to add something to the conversation or no?

Okay so even if you guys believe Ingram and Quickley are on the same level as Siakam and Turner, the Pacers also had contributions from guys like Aaron Neismith, Andrew Nembhard and Benedict Mathurin. If the Raptors trade Scottie, and probably RJ and or Gradey, who are the depth pieces you see helping win a playoff series?

Poeltl is an obvious choice. He is a very similar tiered center to Turner who does differnet things but still valuable. Better rebounder and defender and playmaker albeit a worse perimeter shooter.

Agbaji as well just gave us a great 3+D year 10/4/1 on 60TS%. That is a Nesmith or Nembhard like guy who can play as you 4th/5th guy and just shoot an defend.

Boucher, for all his faults, is still a guy who gives you 10/5 in 18mpg. Very similar to a guy like Toppin.

Not to mention, Giannis is just fundamentally by far the best player on either roster.

IDK why you think Indiana is some massive hurdle. They were a team that was a 50-win 4 seed. Giannis just won 48 games in MIL with a team that included Prince / Trent Jr / Jackson / Green / Kuzma / Rollins as 6 of their top 10 most played players. It is pretty much a lock that a full season with a healthy Giannis with this roster is a 50+ win team.



Edit: like we won 30 games in a year where we blatantly tanked for half a season. If we played out the full year with average health we probably win 41? games or so on average. Now you replace Scottie who was very meh last year and give us a 30ppg 62TS% elite superstar AND you replace Brown with Ingram.

Yeah, that team is WAY better than Indiana. Legitimately would be finals bound this season with that group.

[JB7]

I don’t think the Raptors have the assets the Bucks are looking for. Several other teams can offer a superior package.

If Barnes is on the table, then that immediately eliminates a lot of the competition. Is SAS offering the 2nd pick (Harper), that much more competitive an offer?

Really, the only competition then is:
- Rockets - need to offer Amen
- Cavs - need to offer Mobley
- Magic - need to offer Franz
- Mavs - need to offer 1st pick (Flagg)
- OKC - would need to offer Chet or J-Dub, but after this run, it seems obvious they are out on any Giannis deal

[MoneyBall]

Can you name me the last team that made the NBA Finals with both frontcourt players being poor long range shooters?

22/23 Heat played the majority of minutes with Bam at C and Butler at PF

GS was starting Looney+Draymond

Looney wasn't starting in almost half the games he played that postseason. He also barely averaged 20 mpg. At the very least we'd have to diminish Poeltl's role on the team, which is not ideal.

[YogurtProducer]

22/23 Heat played the majority of minutes with Bam at C and Butler at PF

GS was starting Looney+Draymond

Looney wasn't starting in almost half the games he played that postseason. He also barely averaged 20 mpg. At the very least we'd have to diminish Poeltl's role on the team, which is not ideal.

The Warriors for almost their entire run played Iggy / Draymond / Looney / Livingston / Bogut big minutes.

They also had Steph and Klay which kind of is hard to replicate

[PushDaRock]

I don’t think the Raptors have the assets the Bucks are looking for. Several other teams can offer a superior package.

I feel like there should be a disclaimer. Giannis is only coming if he chooses to be here. It should be very obvious we would not win an actual bidding war.

[TravisScott55]

You going to add something to the conversation or no?

Okay so even if you guys believe Ingram and Quickley are on the same level as Siakam and Turner, the Pacers also had contributions from guys like Aaron Neismith, Andrew Nembhard and Benedict Mathurin. If the Raptors trade Scottie, and probably RJ and or Gradey, who are the depth pieces you see helping win a playoff series?

Poeltl is an obvious choice. He is a very similar tiered center to Turner who does differnet things but still valuable. Better rebounder and defender and playmaker albeit a worse perimeter shooter.

Agbaji as well just gave us a great 3+D year 10/4/1 on 60TS%. That is a Nesmith or Nembhard like guy who can play as you 4th/5th guy and just shoot an defend.

Boucher, for all his faults, is still a guy who gives you 10/5 in 18mpg. Very similar to a guy like Toppin.

Not to mention, Giannis is just fundamentally by far the best player on either roster.

IDK why you think Indiana is some massive hurdle. They were a team that was a 50-win 4 seed. Giannis just won 48 games in MIL with a team that included Prince / Trent Jr / Jackson / Green / Kuzma / Rollins as 6 of their top 10 most played players. It is pretty much a lock that a full season with a healthy Giannis with this roster is a 50+ win team.



Edit: like we won 30 games in a year where we blatantly tanked for half a season. If we played out the full year with average health we probably win 41? games or so on average. Now you replace Scottie who was very meh last year and give us a 30ppg 62TS% elite superstar AND you replace Brown with Ingram.

Yeah, that team is WAY better than Indiana. Legitimately would be finals bound this season with that group.

Poeltl would be a horrible fit next to Giannis, and Boucher is not that player you think he is.

[Clutch0z24]

I don’t think the Raptors have the assets the Bucks are looking for. Several other teams can offer a superior package.

Yep the only way we even get into the convo with a legit shot at getting him is if this Eastern Conference thing is real....If its a bidding war in the East...Barnes/9th/RJ or Dick/Ochai + Picks/Swaps is prolly one of the strongest if not the strongest an East team can offer...

This trade will all come down to where Giannis wants to be....If Toronto is high on his list and East is where he wants to be that raises our chances....If the Bucks also don't give a damn about where Giannis wants to go and ships him to the highest bidder....We prolly don't get him in that scenario either...

It will be a long shot but lots has to go right for us to land Giannis...

[OakleyDokely]

22/23 Heat played the majority of minutes with Bam at C and Butler at PF

GS was starting Looney+Draymond

Looney wasn't starting in almost half the games he played that postseason. He also barely averaged 20 mpg. At the very least we'd have to diminish Poeltl's role on the team, which is not ideal.

Poeltl isn't a 38-40 minute guy though. You'd use him as you need him based on matchups. There would be times when you need to play big with Poeltl/Giannis, and there would be times when you go small with Giannis at C or someone else.

When the Raps won the title, they'd play Gasol/Ibaka together, and they'd play them separately depending on matchups and score.