mcmurphy wrote:if it wants to be a list of the strongest players who played in the equivalent Euroleague (even the 80s and 90s) it becomes even more of a joke
In the case of Sabonis, he wasn't penalized for having played in the 80s and 90s. So everything he did in his career could count.
The current EuroLeague counts every finals since 1958 and every final four since 1988. For example, they count officially 11 championships for Real Madrid, including the one Sabonis won with Real. They don't just count the 3 current era championships of Real.
They count all the stats and records for that, which they even listed and talked about before this year's final four with talk about where Kostas Sloukas ranked all time in final fours and games. Not since 2000, but since 1988. They have Nick Galis listed in official final four records and he retired in 1994.
Sabonis, when including his entire career played in Europe, both before and after the NBA, had 2 finals appearances, 1 championship, and 1 final four MVP.
He also had a fake asterisk MVP, which gets cited all the time, but that award was just a phase of the season award, an award for group stages. It wasn't a real MVP award, and because of that, they finally decided to make a real MVP award for the season after that.
So his MVP isn't actually something legit in any way. His team didn't even make the playoffs that year. So no way in the world, not even a 1% chance, would he have won an actual MVP award for that season. But the season MVP award didn't exist until the next season.
Let's be completely fair to Sabonis. He did win the old player of the year twice. If I remember right, he was the only guy in EuroLeague history to get that award more than one time.
So to make it an equivalent to today, it would mean his career in EuroLeague, counting everything, '80s, '90s, and '00s, would be:
1 EuroLeague championship
2 EuroLeague Finals appearances
3 EuroLeague Final Four appearances
2 EuroLeague MVPs (counting the old era player of the year and not counting fake non legit group stages MVP)
1 EuroLeague Final Four MVP
It's a great career and good enough for the Top 25, because it is clearly better than what Manu Ginobili, Mike James, Luka Doncic, and Bogdan Bogdanovic did in the EuroLeague. So Sabonis could definitely be in the Top 25 over any of those four players.
But if we are talking about GOAT discussions, that career is not enough for the GOAT level.
Because plenty of guys had better EuroLeague careers than that:
Diamantidis, De Colo, Spanoulis, Bodiroga, Llull, Micic, Parker, Navarro, Jasikevicius, from the current era.
You brought up the '80s and '90s, and someone else brought up Kukoc.
There were also some other players, even from older eras, that also had better EuroLeague careers than Sabonis did, such as:
Cliff Luyk
Sergei Belov
Janis Krumins
Emiliano Rodriguez
Wayne Brabender
Manolo Raga
Bob Morse
Dino Meneghin
Miki Berkovich
Walt Szczerbiak Sr.
Aldo Ossola
Toni Kukoc
Antonello Riva
Etc.
Numerous old era guys had better EuroLeague careers than Sabonis did.
Sabonis could have definitely been in the Top 25 list, but he most certainly was not robbed of any EuroLeague GOAT placement, because his EuroLeague career was nowhere near to GOAT level.
US sports media says it was, but it's total BS. It wasn't. Sabonis' EuroLeague career wasn't at all close to EuroLeague GOAT status.
Also, in terms of the voting, it was supposed to be based mainly on how good the players were. Accomplishments, awards, accolades, championships, stats, longevity - none of that was supposed to be more important than just how good the players were in terms of individual skill, talent, and ability.
That's most likely how Mike James got voted in the top 25, despite being the only player on the list to never win a EuroLeague championship.
The criteria they used to be eligible was one season played, and if a player was top 25 based solely on how good they were (the eye test), that was enough for inclusion, even if it was just for one season.
Which is most likely how someone like Luka Doncic made the list. Because otherwise, Luka should not have made it. He had one season where he was Real's 13th man, one season where he was Real's 7th to 8th man, and one season where he won an MVP and a championship.
Although, even in that MVP season, Sergio Llull was the team's first option on offense and was MVP in the ACB league and ACB finals. It's debatable that Luka was even the best player on his team, in his only good season.
And the fact Luka won a championship is also not necessarily what most people think either. Because the same core of Real Madrid players also won EuroLeague championships, both before and also after, Luka was on the team. The same core of Real players won titles before and after, without him.
The point being, no way does Luka make that EuroLeague Top 25 without it just being about how good of a player voters thought he was. Because his EuroLeague career resume isn't remotely near to being in the running for top 25 all time.
So it's not like voters couldn't just vote for Sabonis, purely just for how good he was and nothing else. They could. The same way they could also vote for Andrei Kirilenko, Pau Gasol, etc., just purely for how good they were.
So yes, Sabonis got robbed of being in the top 25, although he may have been close to making it, as he was 29 on the fan vote. He clearly had a much better career than Mike James, who had the worst career of anyone that made the top 25 list.
But if we are talking EuroLeague GOAT debates, Sabonis was not robbed in any way, because his career in EuroLeague simply wasn't close to good enough for EuroLeague GOAT consideration.
