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That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers

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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#61 » by SalmonsSuperfan » Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:16 pm

TheStig wrote:This whole tax payer stadium nonsense is out of control. These franchises are worth billions and are owned by billionaires and used soley for recreational activities in limited use. It's such a poor use of tax dollars and subsidizing those that need it the least. And only the ownership really sees returns. They could easily retool the stadium and if they had a compelling product, it would still sell out. Chicago Stadium sold out with MJ, Wrigley sells out whenever the team is good or it's a nice summer afternoon and Solider Field is packed even in a blizzard. Just put in nicer seats and a better audio/visual elements and people will be happy.

Taxpayers fund all kinds of real estate developments because that's the neoliberal economy we live in and because sometimes the public sector investments actually pay off and see returns. The logic of publicly-funded stadiums being a money sink is outdated information, frankly. I'm not saying it's a good thing for society or for sports, but take a look at how new stadium developments look over the last 10-20 years and what kind of revenue they're generating for municipalities. The Atlanta Braves, Texas Rangers, San Diego Padres, St Louis Cardinals, Minnesota Twins took a more comprehensive development approach beyond building a ballpark and received public funding because they also built tax-revenue producing amenities. I find it problematic that urban public revenue is almost entirely dependent upon property and sales taxes and tourism (besides governmental transfers), ie consumption, but that's the world we live in so cities and states might as well play ball and get something out of it.
That's to say, the taxpayer can subsidize a new Sox Park but there need to be a lot of stipulations. For one, they need to stay put exactly where they are and develop the 100 acres of parking lots. Chicago and Illinois could use this ballpark as an opportunity to help develop a blank slate on the South Side. It could be an exercise in community development. That can't happen if the private interest funds it entirely himself.


Tangential, the threat of moving the team is an empty one. Reinsdorf threatened a move to St Petersburg once and the state and his buddy the governor gave him a sweetheart deal on a new ballpark. A different team set up shop there, the Devil Rays, and they're the worst-drawing team in the league despite being consistently good. Jerry would have lost so much money if he had moved. Talk about Nashville is the same thing. Chicago is still the third largest metro area in the country and he has a location adjacent to its downtown that's well-connected by highway and public transportation and is frankly a better/more easily accessible facility than the other ballpark in town. What about television revenue, does he think it's gonna be greater in Tennessee? What about that sports network he's setting up with his buddies Brooks Boyer and Shams Charania? Makes a little less sense when you have Chicago hockey and basketball but Tennessee baseball. He ain't moving the team.
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#62 » by jnrjr79 » Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:34 pm

SalmonsSuperfan wrote:
TheStig wrote:This whole tax payer stadium nonsense is out of control. These franchises are worth billions and are owned by billionaires and used soley for recreational activities in limited use. It's such a poor use of tax dollars and subsidizing those that need it the least. And only the ownership really sees returns. They could easily retool the stadium and if they had a compelling product, it would still sell out. Chicago Stadium sold out with MJ, Wrigley sells out whenever the team is good or it's a nice summer afternoon and Solider Field is packed even in a blizzard. Just put in nicer seats and a better audio/visual elements and people will be happy.


That's to say, the taxpayer can subsidize a new Sox Park but there need to be a lot of stipulations. For one, they need to stay put exactly where they are and develop the 100 acres of parking lots. Chicago and Illinois could use this ballpark as an opportunity to help develop a blank slate on the South Side. It could be an exercise in community development. That can't happen if the private interest funds it entirely himself.



There's not going to be any interest from anyone in subsidizing a new ballpark in the current location. If this happens, the Sox will pretty assuredly be moving to that South Loop location that's been proposed. And there's about a 0% chance that Reinsdorf is going to feel some social obligation to develop Bridgeport. Brandon Johnson is already supportive of the South Loop idea, so you're also not going to get local governmental pressure to stay (besides the Bridgeport alderperson, presumably).
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#63 » by SalmonsSuperfan » Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:07 am

jnrjr79 wrote:
SalmonsSuperfan wrote:
TheStig wrote:This whole tax payer stadium nonsense is out of control. These franchises are worth billions and are owned by billionaires and used soley for recreational activities in limited use. It's such a poor use of tax dollars and subsidizing those that need it the least. And only the ownership really sees returns. They could easily retool the stadium and if they had a compelling product, it would still sell out. Chicago Stadium sold out with MJ, Wrigley sells out whenever the team is good or it's a nice summer afternoon and Solider Field is packed even in a blizzard. Just put in nicer seats and a better audio/visual elements and people will be happy.


That's to say, the taxpayer can subsidize a new Sox Park but there need to be a lot of stipulations. For one, they need to stay put exactly where they are and develop the 100 acres of parking lots. Chicago and Illinois could use this ballpark as an opportunity to help develop a blank slate on the South Side. It could be an exercise in community development. That can't happen if the private interest funds it entirely himself.



There's not going to be any interest from anyone in subsidizing a new ballpark in the current location. If this happens, the Sox will pretty assuredly be moving to that South Loop location that's been proposed. And there's about a 0% chance that Reinsdorf is going to feel some social obligation to develop Bridgeport. Brandon Johnson is already supportive of the South Loop idea, so you're also not going to get local governmental pressure to stay (besides the Bridgeport alderperson, presumably).

You're absolutely right and even the Bridgeport aldershill supports the South Loop proposal (despite the fact that she just looked at a rendering and said "that's great". useless woman. unelected too.). There isn't a ton of private sector interest in the current location, you're right, which is why I think it should be the onus of the state and city to subsidize development there but not the South Loop site. South Loop doesn't need subsidized development, it's already chock full of rich yuppies. Developers should be paying us to develop that site not the other way around.

Bridgeport and Douglas might need a little more public help, ostensibly to help correct for Daly and CHA's destruction of those areas east of the highway around 2000, areas that are finally rebounding and attracting new residents. If you get rid of the ballpark and the soccer team doesn't take over the lease, you're left with over 100 acres of vacant land that nobody will want to develop. it will be a massive step backward for the south side and in complete contradiction to the previous mayor's massive investment in south side development programs. As I said in the other post, a new ballpark could be looked as a community development opportunity from the public's standpoint. if they want to give the profit-seeking business our money, they should develop some public goods and tax revenue generating structures too. it could be a real opportunity, instead the mayor's office and department of planning are staffed by the stupidest people imaginable who uncritically sign off on anything a developer wants to do.

To the idea of a Sox Park development in Bridgeport, I think there actually is potential for a kind of 'entertainment district' in that area and the team/city could work together like San Diego/Padres, Arlington/Rangers, Minneapolis/Twins did to develop new ballpark districts. The Minneapolis example is a good one because they turned a blighted piece of land/some parking lots into a fun place where people want to hang out and spend money. The potential around the current Comiskey is there for a similar kind of redevelopment. The per capita income has risen drastically in the areas surrounding the ballpark and the demographics are completely different than they were 30 years ago. On former housing project sites, they're building townhomes that sell for $600k as well as luxury high rises. It's adjacent to a college campus. It's a 10 minute train ride from downtown and easily accessible by highway. It's actually easier to get to by L than this proposed "78" site, I guess depending on where they place the station they're supposedly building (waste of money).

If the city/state and team worked together to develop something comprehensive, it could be a win-win. Reinsdorf can build on land he already owns and probably derive more revenue from the ancillary businesses rather than simply signing on to the Related Idiots development idea. It feels lazy and uninspired to be honest, but he was lazy and uninspired when he built comiskey ii and immediately behind the curve before it was even finished being built. The city and state can do something that generates money for them that ostensibly improves a vulnerable community instead of making it worse off. Anyway, that's just my rant as a citizen. It would probably be a cool park and more tourist friendly in the South Loop, but again, if we're giving up public money, we should make the residents of the city better off for it not worse.
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#64 » by DuckIII » Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:31 pm

Very interesting discussion guys. Thanks.
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#65 » by Jcool0 » Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:41 pm

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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#66 » by Jcool0 » Tue Jun 3, 2025 4:07 pm

Beat the White Sox to it.

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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#67 » by Jcool0 » Tue Jun 3, 2025 4:14 pm

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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#68 » by fleet » Tue Jun 3, 2025 9:46 pm

I get a little thrill every time this thread gets bumped. The title is *chef’s kiss*. Thank you Fire. Thank you OP.
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#69 » by prolific passer » Tue Jun 3, 2025 10:04 pm

Guess bulls and white Sox aren't bringing in money like they used to.
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#70 » by drosestruts » Tue Jun 3, 2025 10:08 pm

I hope the Hounds can also move their games to the new Fire stadium - if the MLR lasts that long.
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#71 » by LateNight » Wed Jun 4, 2025 1:12 am

Jcool0 wrote:
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Do people go to these games now? Because my memory was that they were **** empty
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#72 » by Jcool0 » Wed Jun 4, 2025 3:05 am

LateNight wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
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Do people go to these games now? Because my memory was that they were **** empty


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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#73 » by ThisGuyFawkes » Wed Jun 4, 2025 3:17 am

I'm a huge fan of soccer although I don't have the time to watch anything besides Bulls games these days. With that said, I've never seen a Chicago Fire game. I'm a Chicago fan through and through, but I was living in Portland when they won the league. I now live in Houston and have been to several local games. Both Portland and Houston have a soft spot in my MLS heart.

Do I dare to care about this? As a Bulls and White Sox fan... **** Reinsdorf... Go Timbers?!?!?
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#74 » by dougthonus » Wed Jun 4, 2025 11:50 am

Why would a team that is currently averaging 21,000 fans a game that is also experiencing radical growth, build a 22,000 seat stadium that will debut in 3 years? Man does that seem incredibly short sighted.

-- edit nevermind, it's because the numbers are fake(ish) --

They had like 60k fans for the Messi game which boosted the overall numbers by 3k+ and do the general thing where they give away a crapload of tickets to charities and count those as tickets sold (same as other places, including our Chicago Bulls), actual buts in seats on a median game are still well below 22k.
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#75 » by League Circles » Wed Jun 4, 2025 12:18 pm

What an absolute joke of a society we have that thinks to focus on building unnecessary sports stadiums when most people and all governments are drowning in debt smfh.
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#76 » by Ice Man » Wed Jun 4, 2025 12:39 pm

dougthonus wrote:Why would a team that is currently averaging 21,000 fans a game that is also experiencing radical growth, build a 22,000 seat stadium that will debut in 3 years? Man does that seem incredibly short sighted.


1) As you write, those numbers are inflated.
2) The other goal is to raise the possibility that fans might not get a Fire ticket for a game that they wish to see. Whet their appetites, rather than have them take availability for granted.

All that said, I would be surprised if the stadium design is not expandable, in case the Fire does achieve its goal and the 22k capacity is consistently filled.
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#77 » by dougthonus » Wed Jun 4, 2025 12:41 pm

League Circles wrote:What an absolute joke of a society we have that thinks to focus on building unnecessary sports stadiums when most people and all governments are drowning in debt smfh.


It's privately funded. Do you think the Fire should not be allowed to privately fund a stadium for themselves?

What other businesses are not allowed to build their own buildings and should be immediately converted into charities?
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#78 » by League Circles » Wed Jun 4, 2025 12:58 pm

dougthonus wrote:
League Circles wrote:What an absolute joke of a society we have that thinks to focus on building unnecessary sports stadiums when most people and all governments are drowning in debt smfh.


It's privately funded. Do you think the Fire should not be allowed to privately fund a stadium for themselves?

What other businesses are not allowed to build their own buildings and should be immediately converted into charities?


It was just a general comment considering there is plenty of discussion of publicly funding stadiums including here in Chicago in this thread, and I'm also just talking about the inherently absurd economics that it even could be, or even be accurately analyzed to be economical to destroy and build new stadiums every few decades.

But no, I definitely think the fire or any other private company should be allowed to do ridiculous things. Businesses do them all the time in this society and often fail directly or indirectly in the long run as a result. It's just an observation of how unsustainable we are as a society and how much utter waste there is in our economic activity. Though our monetary and legal framework effectively subsidizes and encourages this malinvestment even when "privately funded". Not necessarily speaking to the exact specifics of this Fire deal.
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#79 » by Ice Man » Wed Jun 4, 2025 2:39 pm

League Circles wrote:But no, I definitely think the fire or any other private company should be allowed to do ridiculous things. Businesses do them all the time in this society and often fail directly or indirectly in the long run as a result.


Which is what happened with the Chicago Fire. The team started with a bad stadium situation, renting on unfavorable terms from Soldier Field. Then its first owner made the very bad decision to build a Fire-only stadium in Bridgeview, which offered tax incentives/money in the belief that hosting a professional team would good for business. But Fire fans didn't want to go to Bridgeview; that felt like going to a minor-league baseball game. So, the team's second owner bought out the Bridgeview contract and took the Fire came back to Soldier Field -- but again under unfavorable terms.

We'll see if this new stadium ends up being the right solution. My point is that the Fire's stadium hopping isn't really the case of rich people being flippant; it's a case of trying to arrive the best business decision.
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Re: That cheap prick JR is seeking $1 Billion from us taxpayers 

Post#80 » by League Circles » Wed Jun 4, 2025 2:51 pm

Ice Man wrote:
League Circles wrote:But no, I definitely think the fire or any other private company should be allowed to do ridiculous things. Businesses do them all the time in this society and often fail directly or indirectly in the long run as a result.


Which is what happened with the Chicago Fire. The team started with a bad stadium situation, renting on unfavorable terms from Soldier Field. Then its first owner made the very bad decision to build a Fire-only stadium in Bridgeview, which offered tax incentives/money in the belief that hosting a professional team would good for business. But Fire fans didn't want to go to Bridgeview; that felt like going to a minor-league baseball game. So, the team's second owner bought out the Bridgeview contract and took the Fire came back to Soldier Field -- but again under unfavorable terms.

We'll see if this new stadium ends up being the right solution. My point is that the Fire's stadium hopping isn't really the case of rich people being flippant; it's a case of trying to arrive the best business decision.



I know. I'm not trying to be critical of any entity in particular. It may indeed be good business in a vacuum for the Fire to borrow this money and build a new stadium. I'm just saying, even if that's truly the case, it's still a ridiculous reality that reflects poorly on someone. There SHOULD be an economically straightforward way to utilize the existing stadium in a way that makes IT the best business decision. To what extent that's on the city for not offering a better Soldier Field deal, the fans for paying too much more for a new stadium, the banks and federal government for making the money too easy to borrow, etc, I don't know. It just doesn't pass the smell test for me.
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