Breaking: Tom Fired

[stuporman]

Fans are going to rail against whoever is hired as coach unless it's their guy, then they will defend them no matter what they do but it seems like the most fan hated job in NY sports is Knicks head coach.

Poor guy never has a chance...

Winning is more fun than fun is fun.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Kolek stepping into the Payne minutes seems like an easy decision. You save $3mm in veteran minimum salary and hopefully keep Delon Wright as your third string. Payne's salary slot can go to Shamet on a full season deal. With those moves, the roster would be:

C: Mitch / Hukporti
PF: KAT / Hart
SF: OG / Shamet / Dadiet
SG: Bridges / Deuce
PG: Brunson / Kolek / Wright

That's $202mm give or take, and roughly $6mm under the second apron.

yeah. i believe part of the reason payne was there was to let him see what a backup looks like, which i imagine is important.

and trying to keep it back on track to the thibs firing and not derail into a kolek lovefest, next coach should probably feel confident enough to play him there now. as big a kolek fan as i am, i thought he had a ways to go after those first couple spurts he had. there's a difference between adjusting to pro speed and a continuation of the concerns i had about him at marquette. so watching him get embarrassed a few times i was kinda hoping they'd pull him in, take him back to the lab, and bring him back out when ready. i think thibs did that with hukporti and he also came back looking a lot better. i think if he didn't get hurt, he was on-track for backup C minutes. but thibs kinda had to keep KAT and mitch covering those.

I agree - from a Thibs perspective, the rookies/sophomores were probably inevitably headed to salary filler in a trade land. I raised this in the trade thread, but in this NBA CBA environment, it's so critical that players on cheap (i.e. rookie) contracts contribute significantly in the rotation. It's now financially impossible to build a team entirely with veteran contracts, at least have decent quality 1 through 12. If there was one major question for me going into next year with Thibs, it would be how we were going to cure the bench depth issue without Thibs trusting a couple of young players to step up.

i think one or two of them was going to get into the rotation, barring big changes, of course. but we also have some salaries to use in a deal, so it's hard to say and i'll reserve judgment until FA season.

i do think thibs was going to play hukporti. he likes his bigs and the kid made evident progress before his untimely injury. i was bummed about that. he also might be a mitch replacement plan if we won't/can't pay him again or need to use his expiring salary in a deal.

if we made drastic changes and some vets were gone, i think mccullar was lowkey josh hart insurance for thibs if we had to use hart's salary for something else we needed. kolek might have been able to take on the backup PG role and spare us from spending on backup PGs, as discussed. dadiet is still only 19 years old, so he might have always been in for another year on the pine. ****. worse things to be doing. better than being in the ratiopharm ulm rotation.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Fans are going to rail against whoever is hired as coach unless it's their guy, then they will defend them no matter what they do but it seems like the most fan hated job in NY sports is Knicks head coach.

Poor guy never has a chance...

Winning is more fun than fun is fun.

bro. too soon.

i thought i was ok.

[SOMEKnicks]

In many ways this move has been logical and inevitable. Thibodeau clearly has a coaching style that is predicated on effort, physique, committment to defense and riding a short rotation of players really hard. It was this way in Chicago, then in Minny, then in NY throughout his entire tenure here.
This style took us to the ECF, not without some luck along the way. But losing to hated Indiana two seasons in a row has been a screaming indication that this is the team's ceiling under this approach, and history clearly shows that Thibs would never change it. So, he is the one that has had to be changed.

Whoever they bring in to replace him, I just hope it is not JVG, who's literally the original Thibs. I hope it is a younger coach who is committed to defense, but brings in new ideas, like the full court pressure defense that OKC plays, and can relate to this player group. These Knicks have a lot of personnel who can press the ball handlers and disrupt the passing lanes, they should be doing more of that.

And we need to weave the salary cap somehow to bring in a decent defensive big man, because Mitch is too injury and foul prone to be relied upon for long stretches, Precious looks too undersized, and we need to let KAT slide to PF and OG to SF a lot more often.

Also would be great to bring back Big Ragu to complete the Nova 4, but that's a pipe dream.

[BKlutch]

i know he won a title, but he got canned BEFORE the playoffs because he's pretty much a **** thibs.

having a title is an accomplishment i'd never minimize or take away from a coach. even doc rivers. but at least they let thibs get a crack at the postseason. denver was like, "yo. we can't do this." Jenkins getting the same treatment gives me pause too. but i was never a big fan of his.

i loved thibs and would have serious concerns about malone, if that makes sense.

(because i admit i don't have that sentiment all the way fleshed out. still processing.)

This may be a bit tangential, but I'm really enjoying how folks are willing to look at this from both sides, with honest discussion and analysis of an issue nobody could possibly predict the outcome of. There is a distinct lack of "teams" that used to cause folks here to take sides, retrenching and arguing their point to the death (or near death) of other posters.

I like coaches who've won it all, but I also know that having the right team that peaked at the right time can make a good coach seem great. And some great coaches have never won it all.

We've all put Thibs under a microscope for so long we know every wart and pimple on his coaching body, but we really couldn't possibly have the same closeup view of any of the candidates. The most encouraging factor in this is that Leon made a move at the time he did and (apparently) for the reasons we've all kind of assumed. This means his mindset is in the right place to choose someone who brings the qualifications to lead the team in a way Thibs couldn't. Maybe that's why all the Jokes about Malone.

For anyone who wants to know more about Johnnie Bryant, and hasn't watched the videos of him posted earlier in this thread, the first one is a great look at some very advanced offensive concepts while at the same time showing how he gets what a good defense is. Kenny's job will be harder if he leaves Cleveland.

about the bold. thank you. that means a lot. the mod team wants the forum to look and feel more like that. and it's just how i'm cut personally. i don't look at many things in life in absolutes. and i genuinely try to understand differing points of view. i think polarization is harmful to communities. and for me, it's easier to talk ball knowing folks are going to be measured and not completely agenda driven. nation of thibslam was a tongue-in-cheek joke for me that i never wanted anyone to feel like was trolling or confrontational. just kind of owning my unpopular support in a peaceful/respectful way. i think posting like that is why i was scouted to join the mod team, so i try to kind of model the behavior i want to see.

(we're all human and fallible. i know i've fallen short and taken bait at times. but i also feel confident that i come to this place every day trying to respect the whole. so, again, that means a lot and i think the rest of the mod team appreciates it too.)

i grieve thibs, but i'm a knicks fan. i'm just hoping the next coach is good and good for the team so we can keep moving forward and get this ring before too many more of us die. bryant excites me now that thibs is gone because i assume he would bring an ideal balance.

I'm glad you liked the bold part. One of the best things about this board is learning more than I already knew by reading what other smart folks contribute. The attitude that it's good to dominate a discussion to show off our debating skills or ability to manipulate others is detrimental to having great discussions. You and others chose to move us in a better direction. There's less need to consider whether an opinion will bring a torrent of targeted responses. I greatly prefer posting what I believe, within the bounds of community rules and decorum, of couse. Thanks.

[FrozenEnvelope]

A coaching search worries me. I was hoping they had already settled in on a candidate before they made this move. Maybe they did.

I'm not fine with giving up picks for a coach on another team. We're depleted of picks to begin with after the Mikal trade.

Right now we are the 2003 Pistons and we need to find our Larry Brown.

[Jeff Van Gully]

In many ways this move has been logical and inevitable. Thibodeau clearly has a coaching style that is predicated on effort, physique, committment to defense and riding a short rotation of players really hard. It was this way in Chicago, then in Minny, then in NY throughout his entire tenure here.
This style took us to the ECF, not without some luck along the way. But losing to hated Indiana two seasons in a row has been a screaming indication that this is the team's ceiling under this approach, and history clearly shows that Thibs would never change it. So, he is the one that has had to be changed.

Whoever they bring in to replace him, I just hope it is not JVG, who's literally the original Thibs. I hope it is a younger coach who is committed to defense, but brings in new ideas, like the full court pressure defense that OKC plays, and can relate to this player group. These Knicks have a lot of personnel who can press the ball handlers and disrupt the passing lanes, they should be doing more of that.

And we need to weave the salary cap somehow to bring in a decent defensive big man, because Mitch is too injury and foul prone to be relied upon for long stretches, Precious looks too undersized, and we need to let KAT slide to PF and OG to SF a lot more often.

Also would be great to bring back Big Ragu to complete the Nova 4, but that's a pipe dream.

man, i was a young adult when the JVG was vilified before saying "**** it." the conversations are eerily similar. people didn't talk about minutes and rotations. but i remember a lot of frustration with the offensive creativity. and i think a lot of the criticism was fair. but it was like "he got us to the finals!" to "this is the worst coach in the league!" from so many almost overnight. really hated that for him.

we turned on pat too tho. it's part of it.

[gavran]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=W09F6FrMDfp5_y1gKYgF1g

So why wasn't it him who reported his own firing?

[Adelheid]

i strongly feel its going to be bryant

[Jeff Van Gully]

This may be a bit tangential, but I'm really enjoying how folks are willing to look at this from both sides, with honest discussion and analysis of an issue nobody could possibly predict the outcome of. There is a distinct lack of "teams" that used to cause folks here to take sides, retrenching and arguing their point to the death (or near death) of other posters.

I like coaches who've won it all, but I also know that having the right team that peaked at the right time can make a good coach seem great. And some great coaches have never won it all.

We've all put Thibs under a microscope for so long we know every wart and pimple on his coaching body, but we really couldn't possibly have the same closeup view of any of the candidates. The most encouraging factor in this is that Leon made a move at the time he did and (apparently) for the reasons we've all kind of assumed. This means his mindset is in the right place to choose someone who brings the qualifications to lead the team in a way Thibs couldn't. Maybe that's why all the Jokes about Malone.

For anyone who wants to know more about Johnnie Bryant, and hasn't watched the videos of him posted earlier in this thread, the first one is a great look at some very advanced offensive concepts while at the same time showing how he gets what a good defense is. Kenny's job will be harder if he leaves Cleveland.

about the bold. thank you. that means a lot. the mod team wants the forum to look and feel more like that. and it's just how i'm cut personally. i don't look at many things in life in absolutes. and i genuinely try to understand differing points of view. i think polarization is harmful to communities. and for me, it's easier to talk ball knowing folks are going to be measured and not completely agenda driven. nation of thibslam was a tongue-in-cheek joke for me that i never wanted anyone to feel like was trolling or confrontational. just kind of owning my unpopular support in a peaceful/respectful way. i think posting like that is why i was scouted to join the mod team, so i try to kind of model the behavior i want to see.

(we're all human and fallible. i know i've fallen short and taken bait at times. but i also feel confident that i come to this place every day trying to respect the whole. so, again, that means a lot and i think the rest of the mod team appreciates it too.)

i grieve thibs, but i'm a knicks fan. i'm just hoping the next coach is good and good for the team so we can keep moving forward and get this ring before too many more of us die. bryant excites me now that thibs is gone because i assume he would bring an ideal balance.

I'm glad you liked the bold part. One of the best things about this board is learning more than I already knew by reading what other smart folks contribute. The attitude that it's good to dominate a discussion to show off our debating skills or ability to manipulate others is detrimental to having great discussions. You and others chose to move us in a better direction. There's less need to consider whether an opinion will bring a torrent of targeted responses. I greatly prefer posting what I believe, within the bounds of community rules and decorum, of couse. Thanks.

thanks. i think this place made me a better and smarter fan because i soaked up so much over the years. long before i ever posted, realGM knicks was such a great place to lurk in the mid aughts because nowhere else had this level of conversation. it wasn't without its warts. and honestly, some of the worst trolling and confrontation of all time were from then. but i also saw plenty of useful info and discussion. this also used to be the first place a news story about the knicks would get published. we're still really quick on the wire, but 08 to like 2012... F5 city! 2010 FA season i was like "ok, i gotta make an account now. i'm too invested."

[Jeff Van Gully]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=W09F6FrMDfp5_y1gKYgF1g

So why wasn't it him who reported his own firing?

[Jeff Van Gully]

i strongly feel its going to be Bryant

that's my early hope. but what gives you the confidence? just a feeling?

[stuporman]

Fans are going to rail against whoever is hired as coach unless it's their guy, then they will defend them no matter what they do but it seems like the most fan hated job in NY sports is Knicks head coach.

Poor guy never has a chance...

Winning is more fun than fun is fun.

bro. too soon.

i thought i was ok.

I̶ ̶b̶l̶a̶m̶e̶ ̶T̶h̶i̶b̶s̶

I miss Thibs

[HabenKG]

How is Udoka even on the list of folks? Rockets going to deny this request with the quickness. Rocket fans will riot if they let him go.

[MrDollarBills]

I think 100% Hukporti is going to be a rotation player next season.

And Kolek has to be in the mix. Him and Deuce could be a second unit backcourt.

Not sure what they plan for Dadiet, but the one I wouldn't sleep on is McCullar. If his body is sound the guy could be a monster defensively and maybe capable offensively.

if the next coach expands the rotation to 10, kolek is probably in there like swimwear.

i watched him through his college career and i'm ASHAMED of how much video i watched leading up to the draft. i lost my **** when we picked him. also really liked the defensive improvement i saw when he got back in. we'll need facilitation in the second unit and he could absolutely bring that.

If Tyler and Ariel can become two rotation pieces, that's huge. I really like what i saw from Dadiet so hopefully some summer seasoning and summer league can show us if he looks improved.

[shtolky]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=W09F6FrMDfp5_y1gKYgF1g

It's way more than the Pacers series. They fell behind time and time again against Detroit, Boston, and Indy. Thibs would trot out the same lineups over and over again, lineups which clearly were not working. He's been a notoriously stubborn coach and I'm not sure how you run it back with him again, especially with the same group. The same thing would have happened next year; he would have played 7 guys and kept the starters out there in 30-point blowouts. This is what he was. He was fantastic for bringing the Knicks back from the dead, but I don't know how anyone who actually watched this past season can be shocked at this firing. Talking heads and fans of other teams, sure, but we saw it night after night. Many of you have said this season wasn't as fun to watch as last year's, and there is a reason for that, despite getting much further into the season. This is a massive hire coming up, because the team has a genuine window to win a title.

[The KnicksFix]

This may be a bit tangential, but I'm really enjoying how folks are willing to look at this from both sides, with honest discussion and analysis of an issue nobody could possibly predict the outcome of. There is a distinct lack of "teams" that used to cause folks here to take sides, retrenching and arguing their point to the death (or near death) of other posters.

I like coaches who've won it all, but I also know that having the right team that peaked at the right time can make a good coach seem great. And some great coaches have never won it all.

We've all put Thibs under a microscope for so long we know every wart and pimple on his coaching body, but we really couldn't possibly have the same closeup view of any of the candidates. The most encouraging factor in this is that Leon made a move at the time he did and (apparently) for the reasons we've all kind of assumed. This means his mindset is in the right place to choose someone who brings the qualifications to lead the team in a way Thibs couldn't. Maybe that's why all the Jokes about Malone.

For anyone who wants to know more about Johnnie Bryant, and hasn't watched the videos of him posted earlier in this thread, the first one is a great look at some very advanced offensive concepts while at the same time showing how he gets what a good defense is. Kenny's job will be harder if he leaves Cleveland.

about the bold. thank you. that means a lot. the mod team wants the forum to look and feel more like that. and it's just how i'm cut personally. i don't look at many things in life in absolutes. and i genuinely try to understand differing points of view. i think polarization is harmful to communities. and for me, it's easier to talk ball knowing folks are going to be measured and not completely agenda driven. nation of thibslam was a tongue-in-cheek joke for me that i never wanted anyone to feel like was trolling or confrontational. just kind of owning my unpopular support in a peaceful/respectful way. i think posting like that is why i was scouted to join the mod team, so i try to kind of model the behavior i want to see.

(we're all human and fallible. i know i've fallen short and taken bait at times. but i also feel confident that i come to this place every day trying to respect the whole. so, again, that means a lot and i think the rest of the mod team appreciates it too.)

i grieve thibs, but i'm a knicks fan. i'm just hoping the next coach is good and good for the team so we can keep moving forward and get this ring before too many more of us die. bryant excites me now that thibs is gone because i assume he would bring an ideal balance.

I'm glad you liked the bold part. One of the best things about this board is learning more than I already knew by reading what other smart folks contribute. The attitude that it's good to dominate a discussion to show off our debating skills or ability to manipulate others is detrimental to having great discussions. You and others chose to move us in a better direction. There's less need to consider whether an opinion will bring a torrent of targeted responses. I greatly prefer posting what I believe, within the bounds of community rules and decorum, of couse. Thanks.

Honestly I feel sorry for Thibs man
Had he just made a few changes he would still be here
He was stubborn to a fault
I was his biggest critic, but I knew he had the ability to be great not just good. I always thought he wasn’t cut in the same fabric as pop and spo. But a ring would have put him in that rare air.
Now it’s just sad to see that old dood go

The one thing in life that’s constant is change.

[SOMEKnicks]

In many ways this move has been logical and inevitable. Thibodeau clearly has a coaching style that is predicated on effort, physique, committment to defense and riding a short rotation of players really hard. It was this way in Chicago, then in Minny, then in NY throughout his entire tenure here.
This style took us to the ECF, not without some luck along the way. But losing to hated Indiana two seasons in a row has been a screaming indication that this is the team's ceiling under this approach, and history clearly shows that Thibs would never change it. So, he is the one that has had to be changed.

Whoever they bring in to replace him, I just hope it is not JVG, who's literally the original Thibs. I hope it is a younger coach who is committed to defense, but brings in new ideas, like the full court pressure defense that OKC plays, and can relate to this player group. These Knicks have a lot of personnel who can press the ball handlers and disrupt the passing lanes, they should be doing more of that.

And we need to weave the salary cap somehow to bring in a decent defensive big man, because Mitch is too injury and foul prone to be relied upon for long stretches, Precious looks too undersized, and we need to let KAT slide to PF and OG to SF a lot more often.

Also would be great to bring back Big Ragu to complete the Nova 4, but that's a pipe dream.

man, i was a young adult when the JVG was vilified before saying "**** it." the conversations are eerily similar. people didn't talk about minutes and rotations. but i remember a lot of frustration with the offensive creativity. and i think a lot of the criticism was fair. but it was like "he got us to the finals!" to "this is the worst coach in the league!" from so many almost overnight. really hated that for him.

we turned on pat too tho. it's part of it.

As a young adult I absolutely adored JVG and gave him lots of credit for everything his teams accomplished, starting with the 30+ point drubbing of the Bulls in his first game as head coach and up to the trip to the Finals. But often the full picture becomes clearer from afar, and 25-30 years later I am thinking that he underachieved despite having some pretty amazing talent on his teams. Most tellingly against Miami in 1997 when the brawl cost us what I believe was our best chance at the chip.

[thebuzzardman]

the report on the firing i think did mention dolan as part of those urgent player meetings that preceded the firing. but i haven't had a chance to read much yet. work and forum been hot!

i'm not sure. some folks been citing the hukporti locker room visit and recent sideline facial expressions.

It would be a great twist on the story if Huk turns into Mitch # 2 and we have 48 minutes of court terror in the paint and then he and Dolan become best buddies, go golfing together any chance they can get and Huk gets invited on stage to sing a cameo with The Straight Shots.

I think 100% Hukporti is going to be a rotation player next season.

I think there's a world where Huk becomes backup C and Mitch is traded for a tall wing backup, though they'd have to be really confident of their assessment of Huk. Also, that would leave the roster with no 3rd C, though that's solvable enough.

All might be dependent on other moves, or could happen all by itself.

Common sense is Huk has always been Mitch insurance, just in what way? 3rd stringer for all Mitch injuries? Replacement in year because of FA? Ability to use Mitch's expiring this year? We will see.

Still think a certain C/PF on the Grizz is the target.

[The KnicksFix]

about the bold. thank you. that means a lot. the mod team wants the forum to look and feel more like that. and it's just how i'm cut personally. i don't look at many things in life in absolutes. and i genuinely try to understand differing points of view. i think polarization is harmful to communities. and for me, it's easier to talk ball knowing folks are going to be measured and not completely agenda driven. nation of thibslam was a tongue-in-cheek joke for me that i never wanted anyone to feel like was trolling or confrontational. just kind of owning my unpopular support in a peaceful/respectful way. i think posting like that is why i was scouted to join the mod team, so i try to kind of model the behavior i want to see.

(we're all human and fallible. i know i've fallen short and taken bait at times. but i also feel confident that i come to this place every day trying to respect the whole. so, again, that means a lot and i think the rest of the mod team appreciates it too.)

i grieve thibs, but i'm a knicks fan. i'm just hoping the next coach is good and good for the team so we can keep moving forward and get this ring before too many more of us die. bryant excites me now that thibs is gone because i assume he would bring an ideal balance.

I'm glad you liked the bold part. One of the best things about this board is learning more than I already knew by reading what other smart folks contribute. The attitude that it's good to dominate a discussion to show off our debating skills or ability to manipulate others is detrimental to having great discussions. You and others chose to move us in a better direction. There's less need to consider whether an opinion will bring a torrent of targeted responses. I greatly prefer posting what I believe, within the bounds of community rules and decorum, of couse. Thanks.

thanks. i think this place made me a better and smarter fan because i soaked up so much over the years. long before i ever posted, realGM knicks was such a great place to lurk in the mid aughts because nowhere else had this level of conversation. it wasn't without its warts. and honestly, some of the worst trolling and confrontation of all time were from then. but i also saw plenty of useful info and discussion. this also used to be the first place a news story about the knicks would get published. we're still really quick on the wire, but 08 to like 2012... F5 city! 2010 FA season i was like "ok, i gotta make an account now. i'm too invested."

I honestly think JVG is because we are all obsessed with the game and even more so obsessed with the Knicks
I often think if we all got together in a bar and got some beers, the Knick talk would be legendary.
This is the one place where we view the Knicks as a religion. There’s levels to fandom, but the posters on realgm are crème de la crème of understanding the nuances of the game. We understand the salary cap, trade exceptions, X’s and o’s to a level that other cities fans just can’t grasp. We might not always agree with each other here, but we respect each other and learn a thing or two from one another.

There is no offseason. It’s just stress.