Extend Joe or No?

[lon3lytoaster]

I don’t hate Joe, and I do think he’s getting better every year. But for some reason, he’s fully bought into the three-point analytics — which is fine in theory — but he has no real counterpunch when the threes aren’t falling.

He still gets standoffish if you ask him about his strategy, too.

If he doesn’t show improvement next season and the offense is still just, “let’s jack up threes because the analytics say a three is better than a two,” then I want him gone.

Winning that championship really feels like it made him triple down on the strategy, too. Obviously some of it is personele and their tendencies as well, and not really having a fast guard that can get downhill or a real post up option but this year was especially not super fun to watch at times. Lots of old habits crept back in when shots weren't falling. He tends to treat the whole roster like they're all Steph Curry.

[djFan71]

I probably extend him, but make him hire a true offensive coordinator to diversify things. I like plan A quite a bit. I want a plan B-D at least, though.

He seems to have a very organized system, players love him, the defense is really good, the offense does generate great looks. All those shouldn't be taken for granted / thrown away. But, I agree with the criticisms that the O gets stale, and we don't play enough guys regularly. We have definitely developed young guys - PP, Hauser, Kornet. But, I always prefer to play 10-11 guys during regular season so the starters stay fresh, but more importantly the deeper bench develops.

And, then diversify the offense. Let your point guards run it - crazy?!?!? - at least some of the times. Get the Jays easy looks with more movement instead of making them generate everything. All the stuff we've seen mentioned here.

[redslastlaugh]

I don’t hate Joe, and I do think he’s getting better every year. But for some reason, he’s fully bought into the three-point analytics — which is fine in theory — but he has no real counterpunch when the threes aren’t falling.

He still gets standoffish if you ask him about his strategy, too.

If he doesn’t show improvement next season and the offense is still just, “let’s jack up threes because the analytics say a three is better than a two,” then I want him gone.

Winning that championship really feels like it made him triple down on the strategy, too. Obviously some of it is personele and their tendencies as well, and not really having a fast guard that can get downhill or a real post up option but this year was especially not super fun to watch at times. Lots of old habits crept back in when shots weren't falling. He tends to treat the whole roster like they're all Steph Curry.

It does seem like he's super defensive and "smartest guy in the room" about the "shooting 3pointers" piece.

Last year, we won the chip and then we INCREASED our 3pt attempts over 14% from last year's level. And it seemed like the reporters were too scared to ask Joe, "why are you shooting so many more 3's than last year" because somehow that'd expose the reporter's ignorance of the analytics or something.

We literally went the entire season + playoffs with no reporter ever asking Joe "why the huge jump in attempts" ... it was kinda weird actually.

[Gant]

I don’t hate Joe, and I do think he’s getting better every year. But for some reason, he’s fully bought into the three-point analytics — which is fine in theory — but he has no real counterpunch when the threes aren’t falling.

He still gets standoffish if you ask him about his strategy, too.

If he doesn’t show improvement next season and the offense is still just, “let’s jack up threes because the analytics say a three is better than a two,” then I want him gone.

Winning that championship really feels like it made him triple down on the strategy, too. Obviously some of it is personele and their tendencies as well, and not really having a fast guard that can get downhill or a real post up option but this year was especially not super fun to watch at times. Lots of old habits crept back in when shots weren't falling. He tends to treat the whole roster like they're all Steph Curry.

It does seem like he's super defensive and "smartest guy in the room" about the "shooting 3pointers" piece.

Last year, we won the chip and then we INCREASED our 3pt attempts over 14% from last year's level. And it seemed like the reporters were too scared to ask Joe, "why are you shooting so many more 3's than last year" because somehow that'd expose the reporter's ignorance of the analytics or something.

We literally went the entire season + playoffs with no reporter ever asking Joe "why the huge jump in attempts" ... it was kinda weird actually.

It's pretty simple. The Celtics shot 472 more 3s in the regular season over the previous year. Only three players made up the whole increase, which were the same three guys who all broke the Celtics previous record for made 3s.

Over half the increase came from Pritchard being a bigger part of the rotation, up 244 3pa. Derrick White made up most of the rest, +196 3pa. Greater reliance on Pritchard and White basically was the whole reason.

Also, Tatum was +119 3pa. That's 559 extra three point attempts for the leading trio alone.

The entire rest of the team shot 87 LESS three point attempts than the previous year.

[redslastlaugh]

I'm not following. Are you saying the answer is so simple being that White, Payton and JT shooting more 3PTAs and setting records for makes is so obviously a season-over-season improvement that why would anyone ask? Not being sarcastic, just not sure what you're saying is simple about it.

It does seem like he's super defensive and "smartest guy in the room" about the "shooting 3pointers" piece.

Last year, we won the chip and then we INCREASED our 3pt attempts over 14% from last year's level. And it seemed like the reporters were too scared to ask Joe, "why are you shooting so many more 3's than last year" because somehow that'd expose the reporter's ignorance of the analytics or something.

It's pretty simple. The Celtics shot 472 more 3s in the regular season over the previous year. Only three players made up the whole increase, which were the same three guys who all broke the Celtics previous record for made 3s.

Almost half the increase came from Pritchard being a bigger part of the rotation, up 244 3pa. Derrick White made up most of the rest, +196 3pa. Greater reliance on Pritchard and White basically was the whole reason.

Also, Tatum was +119 3pa. That's 559 extra three point attempts for the leading trio alone.

The entire rest of the team shot had 87 LESS three point attempts than the previous year.

[Gant]

I'm not following. Are you saying the answer is so simple being that White, Payton and JT shooting more 3PTAs and setting records for makes is so obviously a season-over-season improvement that why would anyone ask? Not being sarcastic, just not sure what you're saying is simple about it.

It does seem like he's super defensive and "smartest guy in the room" about the "shooting 3pointers" piece.

Last year, we won the chip and then we INCREASED our 3pt attempts over 14% from last year's level. And it seemed like the reporters were too scared to ask Joe, "why are you shooting so many more 3's than last year" because somehow that'd expose the reporter's ignorance of the analytics or something.

It's pretty simple. The Celtics shot 472 more 3s in the regular season over the previous year. Only three players made up the whole increase, which were the same three guys who all broke the Celtics previous record for made 3s.

Almost half the increase came from Pritchard being a bigger part of the rotation, up 244 3pa. Derrick White made up most of the rest, +196 3pa. Greater reliance on Pritchard and White basically was the whole reason.

Also, Tatum was +119 3pa. That's 559 extra three point attempts for the leading trio alone.

The entire rest of the team shot had 87 LESS three point attempts than the previous year.

What I'm saying is Pritchard and White took on a greater offensive load, and those guys shoot threes. Other key players got older or more banged up, reducing their roles, which caused the change in the offense. The records are unimportant, so I probably shouldn't have mentioned that.

[ConstableGeneva]

38.5%+ from 3 on high volume, reg season and playoffs, is a good thing. I don't think Pritchard and White are great examples on why the Celtics should shoot less threes. I do miss White's midrange and floater game.

Tatum was taking 10 3PAs/game at 34.3%. Gross.
Brown was taking 5.7 3PAs/game at 32.4%. Eeeek.

DWhite and PP shooting well and a ton of threes was the least of our problems.

I haven't drilled down on the numbers, but they should cut down on pullup threes esp Tatum. Of course, having less threes would decrease the variance and increase the unpredictably of the offense. That would be a good thing.

[redslastlaugh]

Just on Derrick specifically, he's a 30 yr old, big combo guard who has only played 14,000 career minutes. And you look at his DARKO trajectory or his on/offs or his WS/48 and he was unquestionably better in 2023-24 than he was this year, and it's just too soon for him to have peaked...

https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/

Derrick reworking his game to where 72% of his field goal attempts this yr were 3pters (59% 3PAr last yr) does not seem to have been a positive development in his trajectory.

And we are just not at the time in his career for him to start declining, he should still be getting better but he's not.

So it seems his role has become too specialized. I don't look at it as just a matter of his percentages are good, it's more a matter of D White game seems to have gone backwards and the main thing that's changed is his shot profile (and his man defense, which is scarier to contemplate)

38.5%+ from 3 on high volume, reg season and playoffs, is a good thing. I don't think Pritchard and White are great examples on why the Celtics should shoot less threes. I do miss White's midrange and floater game.

[ConstableGeneva]

Just on Derrick specifically, he's a 30 yr old, big combo guard who has only played 14,000 career minutes. And you look at his DARKO trajectory or his on/offs or his WS/48 and he was unquestionably better in 2023-24 than he was this year, and it's just too soon for him to have peaked...

https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/

Derrick reworking his game to where 72% of his field goal attempts this yr were 3pters (59% 3PAr last yr) does not seem to have been a positive development in his trajectory.

And we are just not at the time in his career for him to start declining, he should still be getting better but he's not.

So it seems his role has become too specialized. I don't look at it as just a matter of his percentages are good, it's more a matter of D White game seems to have gone backwards and the main thing that's changed is his shot profile (and his man defense, which is scarier to contemplate)

38.5%+ from 3 on high volume, reg season and playoffs, is a good thing. I don't think Pritchard and White are great examples on why the Celtics should shoot less threes. I do miss White's midrange and floater game.

I think we're still complaining about the wrong players when it comes to the effectiveness of the 3-pt shot with last season's team. Our stars shot POORLY and you didn't even mention them, like at all.

[redslastlaugh]

Just on Derrick specifically, he's a 30 yr old, big combo guard and it's just too soon for him to have peaked...ok at it as just a matter of his percentages are good, it's more a matter of D White game seems to have gone backwards and the main thing that's changed is his shot profile (and his man defense, which is scarier to contemplate)

I think we're still complaining about the wrong players when it comes to the effectiveness of the 3-pt shot with last season's team. Our stars shot POORLY and you didn't even mention them, like at all.

yea, that's fair.

edit: looking up the gm 1 boxscore, JT + JB were 5-25 on 3PTA in the loss to the Knicks. Five of Twentyfive. lol, tough look for the Jays, like what is the thought process there? You're right it's hard to place blame elsewhere if in the biggest moments the stars go 5/25

[itrsteve]

My vote would be a mild yes.

He hasn't done anything that has been glaringly awful. Our guys know what it takes to win and they did it with him, that deserves some weight and Brad is level-headed enough to not let him go (unless he wanted to on his own)

[Kalela]

Sure. I am not a fan of how he sucks in in-game adjustments but he is still young and still learning on the job. Most coaches out there are, shockingly, worse than Bubble gum Joe.

[31to6]

Just on Derrick specifically, he's a 30 yr old, big combo guard and it's just too soon for him to have peaked...ok at it as just a matter of his percentages are good, it's more a matter of D White game seems to have gone backwards and the main thing that's changed is his shot profile (and his man defense, which is scarier to contemplate)

I think we're still complaining about the wrong players when it comes to the effectiveness of the 3-pt shot with last season's team. Our stars shot POORLY and you didn't even mention them, like at all.

yea, that's fair.

edit: looking up the gm 1 boxscore, JT + JB were 5-25 on 3PTA in the loss to the Knicks. Five of Twentyfive. lol, tough look for the Jays, like what is the thought process there? You're right it's hard to place blame elsewhere if in the biggest moments the stars go 5/25

Jayson's lazy "why not?" 3s that bricked down the stretch of that game were the story of the season, IMO.
If at least one had gone in, it's likely a whole different series.
If he had driven and created at least one bucket for himself or other(s) instead, same.
The ENTIRE chance at a repeat hung in the balance right there -- though with JB's knee balky and KP zapped by Mystery Illness, I don't think the Cs were repeating, anyway.
But he took them, bricked them, and now, things are worse.

[31to6]

I easily extend Joe, unless everyone behind the scenes thinks Cassell is the better option, in which case you've got to switch horses within the next month. I strongly doubt that that happens. New owners probably aren't looking to make that many waves -- but lol who knows, maybe in a month Jaylen and Joe and Jrue and KP are all gone and we're like GET HYPED FOR PJ WASHINGTON and -- uhm -- Demar Derozan coached by Sam Cassell

[Lee Van Cleef]

His inability to call timely timeouts is good enough reason for me to let him go. I always liked the game Memphis played with Jenkins. I guess I would bring him in.

[ThePigeon]

His inability to put the players in a winning situation and play for their strengths when the going gets tough is good enough reason to get a real game time coach. He can stay but let a real coach - coach in game
Our 2 losses against NY - where we had the ball down 1 or 2 and the inability to get a shot up is reason enough

Any one (and I can name some posters here) can get the talent we have to a good season and a good playoff run
A good coach will get the team over the hill

Play the youngsters, even if we lose some. Get the players confident enough to contribute in a meaningful game
Why get Craig if he plays only in garbage time? Why play injured/sick players and if so, get them out when you see it doesn't work
The list can get real long here

He will be extended because of the championship, but he is mediocre coach at best

[Triple7]

Pass on Joe. Sick of the 3ball offense, and his inability to adjust in-games. If we didn’t jack up 3’s non stop in games 1 and 2, we would have easily won those games with a wide margin. Up 20 on both games late in the 3rd jeez. You would expect we would play with composure and the killer instinct as defending champs, and yet we choked. If we won those games, Tatum probably won’t be injured, and we should be defending our title. Sick of Joe and his 3ball game.

[Sikk_Handlez]

I hear thibs just got fired, I'm surprised more people aren't suggesting him replacing joe

[OnlyTheTruth]

Begter coaches got fired. Time to let Joe go

[FlatearthZorro]

His inability to call timely timeouts is good enough reason for me to let him go. I always liked the game Memphis played with Jenkins. I guess I would bring him in.

This...
But add to that the bizzaro Thibs like rotations where mostly 7 gyus play...