Windhorst: Raptors making noise around the league looking for a “big fish” // Giannis & Toronto "Mutual Interest"/KD too

[JB7]

I think the “big fish” statement by Windy is being a bit overblown in the sense that it make a lot of sense of Toronto to be interested in making a big splash but I don’t think it’s their only focus.

I mean I think they would like to make a win now move if the opportunity presents itself but when all is said and done maybe it will be no fish, only a small fish, a mid fish, a big fish.

Even if a big fish is being considered it’s probably also the less likely scenario.

Also I would not be surprised if the team evaluate what is the value of RJ + 9 in a trade .

They will be aggressive ... probably moreso than in previous years for a number of factors

- masai wants to flex / new ownership wants better results
- development baby time is over and these guys want to get back to the playoffs
- east is wide open

So it makes all the sense in the world for them to go out and get a star if the price makes sense

make sense...Ed ownership is short-term , not the future, so Ujiri has to go for it now

I think it also aligns with Masai's way of thinking. He is always looking to compete for a championship, and with superstars in the league driving so much of that winning, and only probably a handful of them in the league, he probably feels you need to take a shot at acquiring one, anytime they become available.

[WuTang_CMB]

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[ash_k]

Let's say we get Giannis to form that electric duo with BI...essentially creating a brand new team..can we afford to trust a coach with a losing record that has never been in the playoffs to lead Giannis and BI? Nurse had a blank stale(0-0). I would be curious to find out if Masai pulls the trigger right away in a win-now mode.
I am usually not attached to FRP(would have traded Barnes' pick) However even for Giannis , I cannot imagine giving up 4 FRPs even 3 would feel like a lot.
The more you think about it, sticking with what we have currently ensure the playoffs; it might just be the best way forward.
Stay the course, Scottie&RJ&Dick will continue to improve

Only works if you actually believe in your soul that Barnes/RJ/Dick could actually lead you to a title one day....Because Giannis as soon as he steps into the door teaming up with Ingram....He brings your odds to winning a title the years hes with us by a heck of alot....If Barnes/RJ/Dick in the next 5 years leads us to 1st/2nd round exits you will be looking back at the chance you could of got Giannis and say "What could of been"....

To me i don't see Barnes ever being good enough to reach a level where hes dramatically giving us a chance to be a champion one day....With Giannis i think we have a chance to make the Finals next year.

Giannis essentially missed 2 straight years of playoffs, including that one time when it looked like the Achilles (ending up being calf). No concerns there?

[Clutch0z24]

Let's say we get Giannis to form that electric duo with BI...essentially creating a brand new team..can we afford to trust a coach with a losing record that has never been in the playoffs to lead Giannis and BI? Nurse had a blank stale(0-0). I would be curious to find out if Masai pulls the trigger right away in a win-now mode.
I am usually not attached to FRP(would have traded Barnes' pick) However even for Giannis , I cannot imagine giving up 4 FRPs even 3 would feel like a lot.
The more you think about it, sticking with what we have currently ensure the playoffs; it might just be the best way forward.
Stay the course, Scottie&RJ&Dick will continue to improve

Only works if you actually believe in your soul that Barnes/RJ/Dick could actually lead you to a title one day....Because Giannis as soon as he steps into the door teaming up with Ingram....He brings your odds to winning a title the years hes with us by a heck of alot....If Barnes/RJ/Dick in the next 5 years leads us to 1st/2nd round exits you will be looking back at the chance you could of got Giannis and say "What could of been"....

To me i don't see Barnes ever being good enough to reach a level where hes dramatically giving us a chance to be a champion one day....With Giannis i think we have a chance to make the Finals next year.

Giannis essentially missed 2 straight years of playoffs, including that one time when it looked like the Achilles (ending up being calf). No concerns there?

No concerns at all because sure he had injuries but he never had a career altering injury....It sucks to see any player go down but it happens in the NBA.....In the last 2 years Barnes played 60/65 games Giannis played 73/67....Point is Giannis injuries were not devasting to where it will impact his career like a MCL/ACL/Achillies type of injury....

I am sure Giannis will be fine...

[metafisical]

Giannis and 3 unprotected firsts for Poeltl and maybe another garbage contract. That's the most I'm prepared to give up for a washed up Giannis.

But as soon as he gets traded here, I'm going to change my opinion and consider him a GOAT. Unless you are on the Raptors, you are worse than a scrub, even a prime MJ.

Was it cold under the bridge?

A little bit.

[Tha Cynic]

Why is everyone still stuck on idea that superstars decline in their early 30s? If anything the last 5 years should show how you can expect Giannis to be MVP caliber player at least till 35, and an all star probably into late 30s easily.

The difference is Giannis’ game depends heavily on his ability to physically overwhelm his opponents. That tends to expire quicker than players whose advantages are more skill based. He will be a superstar until he’s 34. After that I think the decline will be swift. So if we do acquire him, our window is three to four years, which isn’t that bad because I’m of the opinion that we are deeper than we think.

I’d hate to see Scottie go but as much as I believe in him, his ceiling is below where Giannis is right now. If we win a championship again in the next three or four years and the cost of that is Scottie becoming a perennial all star somewhere else, I’m taking the ring.

Exactly how I feel about this. I think Barnes has the potential still to get better but this is Giannis and it’s a no brainer for me. I think he has at least 4 years left even if he relies on his physique. Looking at guys like Jimmy Butler and LeBron James, those guys can still dominate with their strength. I think the biggest issue is the leg injuries, etc but you gotta take that chance.

If the Raptors can make this reset whine retaining enough to improve the roster, you’re getting a superstar with at least 4 elite years left imo.

[ash_k]

Only works if you actually believe in your soul that Barnes/RJ/Dick could actually lead you to a title one day....Because Giannis as soon as he steps into the door teaming up with Ingram....He brings your odds to winning a title the years hes with us by a heck of alot....If Barnes/RJ/Dick in the next 5 years leads us to 1st/2nd round exits you will be looking back at the chance you could of got Giannis and say "What could of been"....

To me i don't see Barnes ever being good enough to reach a level where hes dramatically giving us a chance to be a champion one day....With Giannis i think we have a chance to make the Finals next year.

Giannis essentially missed 2 straight years of playoffs, including that one time when it looked like the Achilles (ending up being calf). No concerns there?

No concerns at all because sure he had injuries but he never had a career altering injury....It sucks to see any player go down but it happens in the NBA.....In the last 2 years Barnes played 60/65 games Giannis played 73/67....Point is Giannis injuries were not devasting to where it will impact his career like a MCL/ACL/Achillies type of injury....

I am sure Giannis will be fine...

positive energy! How many FRPs are you willing to trade then with Scottie included. IMO impossible to get Giannis without including Scottie.
I would prefer a much cheaper KD-BI-Barnes-Yak for a 2-year-win-now run.

[Clutch0z24]

Giannis essentially missed 2 straight years of playoffs, including that one time when it looked like the Achilles (ending up being calf). No concerns there?

No concerns at all because sure he had injuries but he never had a career altering injury....It sucks to see any player go down but it happens in the NBA.....In the last 2 years Barnes played 60/65 games Giannis played 73/67....Point is Giannis injuries were not devasting to where it will impact his career like a MCL/ACL/Achillies type of injury....

I am sure Giannis will be fine...

positive energy! How many FRPs are you willing to trade then with Scottie included. IMO impossible to get Giannis without including Scottie.
I would prefer a much cheaper KD-BI-Barnes-Yak for a 2-year-win-now run.

The only reason we are even in the convo for Giannis is because we have Barnes + a clean draft sheet....#9 prolly gone as well as 3 FRP on top with maybe 1 protection on the latest pick you are giving up and possibly a pick swap in there....Suns gave up Cam/Bridges(Who at that time was a great young prospect) And 4 FRPs....So i don't see Giannis going for less picks than a 35 Year old KD.....Who knows what players get added to that but prolly Dick....But the main thing Bucks will want is Barnes + the picks in any deal for Giannis...

[ash_k]

No concerns at all because sure he had injuries but he never had a career altering injury....It sucks to see any player go down but it happens in the NBA.....In the last 2 years Barnes played 60/65 games Giannis played 73/67....Point is Giannis injuries were not devasting to where it will impact his career like a MCL/ACL/Achillies type of injury....

I am sure Giannis will be fine...

positive energy! How many FRPs are you willing to trade then with Scottie included. IMO impossible to get Giannis without including Scottie.
I would prefer a much cheaper KD-BI-Barnes-Yak for a 2-year-win-now run.

The only reason we are even in the convo for Giannis is because we have Barnes + a clean draft sheet....#9 prolly gone as well as 3 FRP on top with maybe 1 protection on the latest pick you are giving up and possibly a pick swap in there....Suns gave up Cam/Bridges(Who at that time was a great young prospect) And 4 FRPs....So i don't see Giannis going for less picks than a 35 Year old KD.....Who knows what players get added to that but prolly Dick....But the main thing Bucks will want is Barnes + the picks in any deal for Giannis...

If thats the baseline then we would be looking at Scottie + RJ+ 4 FRPs at least for a 30 year old 2xMVP devastating-injury free. Only way to swallow this if 2025 lotto pick is not included.

[JB7]

No concerns at all because sure he had injuries but he never had a career altering injury....It sucks to see any player go down but it happens in the NBA.....In the last 2 years Barnes played 60/65 games Giannis played 73/67....Point is Giannis injuries were not devasting to where it will impact his career like a MCL/ACL/Achillies type of injury....

I am sure Giannis will be fine...

positive energy! How many FRPs are you willing to trade then with Scottie included. IMO impossible to get Giannis without including Scottie.
I would prefer a much cheaper KD-BI-Barnes-Yak for a 2-year-win-now run.

The only reason we are even in the convo for Giannis is because we have Barnes + a clean draft sheet....#9 prolly gone as well as 3 FRP on top with maybe 1 protection on the latest pick you are giving up and possibly a pick swap in there....Suns gave up Cam/Bridges(Who at that time was a great young prospect) And 4 FRPs....So i don't see Giannis going for less picks than a 35 Year old KD.....Who knows what players get added to that but prolly Dick....But the main thing Bucks will want is Barnes + the picks in any deal for Giannis...

The reason the Nets got that deal for KD is because Ishbia is an idiot, suffering with the new owner syndrome.

That deal, and how the Suns are suffering now, is the exact reason smart teams will not mortgage all of their future for an aging superstar.

If the deal were to happen, I would expect Masai would try to limit it to pieces more known and in his control, like Barnes, Dick, Agbaji, 9th pick, and another FRP (probably 2027, since 2026 is supposed to be a decent draft), and maybe a swap or two. Like in the past, I would think Masai would want to limit how much the team is exposed in the future, trading away its future picks.

And keep in mind, while Barnes, Dick, Agbaji and the 9th pick are all in their early 20's, RJ, IQ and BI are at least in the mid 20's, so just in their prime or going into it, along with a bench that could include Mogbo, Walter and Shead. So they would still be a decently young team. Giannis would be the oldest player in the rotation.

[Clutch0z24]

positive energy! How many FRPs are you willing to trade then with Scottie included. IMO impossible to get Giannis without including Scottie.
I would prefer a much cheaper KD-BI-Barnes-Yak for a 2-year-win-now run.

The only reason we are even in the convo for Giannis is because we have Barnes + a clean draft sheet....#9 prolly gone as well as 3 FRP on top with maybe 1 protection on the latest pick you are giving up and possibly a pick swap in there....Suns gave up Cam/Bridges(Who at that time was a great young prospect) And 4 FRPs....So i don't see Giannis going for less picks than a 35 Year old KD.....Who knows what players get added to that but prolly Dick....But the main thing Bucks will want is Barnes + the picks in any deal for Giannis...

If thats the baseline then we would be looking at Scottie + RJ+ 4 FRPs at least for a 30 year old 2xMVP devastating-injury free. Only way to swallow this if 2025 lotto pick is not included.

Yep that could be a baseline to a deal....who knows....I predicted #9 included with 3 future firsts would and could be either RJ or Dick in that deal....For me id like to hold Barrett to make a follow up trade for a stretch big but just know if we get Giannis....Barnes + alot of draft picks are gone.

[Clutch0z24]

positive energy! How many FRPs are you willing to trade then with Scottie included. IMO impossible to get Giannis without including Scottie.
I would prefer a much cheaper KD-BI-Barnes-Yak for a 2-year-win-now run.

The only reason we are even in the convo for Giannis is because we have Barnes + a clean draft sheet....#9 prolly gone as well as 3 FRP on top with maybe 1 protection on the latest pick you are giving up and possibly a pick swap in there....Suns gave up Cam/Bridges(Who at that time was a great young prospect) And 4 FRPs....So i don't see Giannis going for less picks than a 35 Year old KD.....Who knows what players get added to that but prolly Dick....But the main thing Bucks will want is Barnes + the picks in any deal for Giannis...

The reason the Nets got that deal for KD is because Ishbia is an idiot, suffering with the new owner syndrome.

That deal, and how the Suns are suffering now, is the exact reason smart teams will not mortgage all of their future for an aging superstar.

If the deal were to happen, I would expect Masai would try to limit it to pieces more known and in his control, like Barnes, Dick, 9th pick, and another FRP (probably 2027, since 2026 is supposed to be a decent draft), and maybe a swap or two. Like in the past, I would think Masai would want to limit how much the team is exposed in the future, trading away its future picks.

Doubt that gets it done....People forget Bucks do not control their own picks for many years....The reason they would go for younger players like Barnes instead of more established players like Brown/Mitchell/OG + Bridges type of packages is because we have the draft picks to add....If we don't give up draft picks the Bucks are not interested....Because there are better players on the market for Giannis than Barnes to make the Bucks a better team if winning is their goal....The only reason they accept Barnes is because hes young + we have lots of picks to add....If we don't give picks they prolly look elsewhere...

[JB7]

The only reason we are even in the convo for Giannis is because we have Barnes + a clean draft sheet....#9 prolly gone as well as 3 FRP on top with maybe 1 protection on the latest pick you are giving up and possibly a pick swap in there....Suns gave up Cam/Bridges(Who at that time was a great young prospect) And 4 FRPs....So i don't see Giannis going for less picks than a 35 Year old KD.....Who knows what players get added to that but prolly Dick....But the main thing Bucks will want is Barnes + the picks in any deal for Giannis...

The reason the Nets got that deal for KD is because Ishbia is an idiot, suffering with the new owner syndrome.

That deal, and how the Suns are suffering now, is the exact reason smart teams will not mortgage all of their future for an aging superstar.

If the deal were to happen, I would expect Masai would try to limit it to pieces more known and in his control, like Barnes, Dick, 9th pick, and another FRP (probably 2027, since 2026 is supposed to be a decent draft), and maybe a swap or two. Like in the past, I would think Masai would want to limit how much the team is exposed in the future, trading away its future picks.

Doubt that gets it done....People forget Bucks do not control their own picks for many years....The reason they would go for younger players like Barnes instead of more established players like Brown/Mitchell/OG + Bridges type of packages is because we have the draft picks to add....If we don't give up draft picks the Bucks are not interested....Because there are better players on the market for Giannis than Barnes to make the Bucks a better team if winning is their goal....The only reason they accept Barnes is because hes young + we have lots of picks to add....If we don't give picks they prolly look elsewhere...

Yes, the Bucks not controlling their draft picks is the reason they would be more interested in Barnes, Dick, Agbaji & the 9th pick. They could reset their starting lineup with young players that have upward potential.

Much better in the short and long term than FRPs way out into the future, from a team they just traded a superstar too, and that is relatively young. Those FRPs would most likely be in the 20's, versus Barnes (4th pick), 2025 9th pick, Dick (13th pick), Agbaji (14th pick).

I would think they value the young more known quantities over the unknown future, and bleak short term.

If Barnes is in the deal, then the Rockets need to start with Amen, Cavs need start with Mobley, and Magic need to start with Franz. I don't know if the 2nd pick from SAS can match any of those names.

[Clutch0z24]

The reason the Nets got that deal for KD is because Ishbia is an idiot, suffering with the new owner syndrome.

That deal, and how the Suns are suffering now, is the exact reason smart teams will not mortgage all of their future for an aging superstar.

If the deal were to happen, I would expect Masai would try to limit it to pieces more known and in his control, like Barnes, Dick, 9th pick, and another FRP (probably 2027, since 2026 is supposed to be a decent draft), and maybe a swap or two. Like in the past, I would think Masai would want to limit how much the team is exposed in the future, trading away its future picks.

Doubt that gets it done....People forget Bucks do not control their own picks for many years....The reason they would go for younger players like Barnes instead of more established players like Brown/Mitchell/OG + Bridges type of packages is because we have the draft picks to add....If we don't give up draft picks the Bucks are not interested....Because there are better players on the market for Giannis than Barnes to make the Bucks a better team if winning is their goal....The only reason they accept Barnes is because hes young + we have lots of picks to add....If we don't give picks they prolly look elsewhere...

Yes, the Bucks not controlling their draft picks is the reason they would be more interested in Barnes, Dick, Agbaji & the 9th pick. They could reset their starting lineup with young players that have upward potential.

Much better in the short and long term than FRPs way out into the future, from a team they just traded a superstar too, and that is relatively young. Those FRPs would most likely be in the 20's, versus Barnes (4th pick), 2025 9th pick, Dick (13th pick), Agbaji (14th pick).

I would think they value the young more known quantities over the unknown future, and bleak short term.

If Barnes is in the deal, then the Rockets need to start with Amen, Cavs need start with Mobley, and Magic need to start with Franz. I don't know if the 2nd pick from SAS can match any of those names.

No one will convince me a package of Barnes/Dick/9th pick (Could be a good player might not draft is a gamble), Agbaji is enough to get an all time great....And no....Rockets start with any of Sengun/Green/Reed Shepp/Jabari Smith/10th pick< Good as Barnes/Dick/9th , Cavs could either give up Mobley or Mitchell ....Whichever one because Giannis is an upgrade over either....Magic would start with Franz/Suggs + Picks....Spurs have 2nd pick/14th pick, a bunch of other teams picks + their own, Castle/Vassell/Keldon ....

All these players ^ Would be in play for Giannis and the draft picks will also be added in them packages....That is why i said Bucks will make this a bidding war and it will take a good package to get Giannis....It won't be a few players and a bag of chips you prolly have to give up a haul...

Giannis is a top 3 player in the NBA and hes not old...Hes in his prime still...

[Pointgod]

If Cam Johnson is the "Big Fish" that would be funny....But doubt this is going to happen....Why would Masai move down 10 spots in the draft while we would have to try and match 20 mill in salary on top of that...So you are prolly trading RJ on top of that just to move back 10 spots for Cam?....Won't happen...

Well have you considered this from the perspective of what saves Masai’s job? Hmm

[SpezNc]

They will be aggressive ... probably moreso than in previous years for a number of factors

- masai wants to flex / new ownership wants better results
- development baby time is over and these guys want to get back to the playoffs
- east is wide open

So it makes all the sense in the world for them to go out and get a star if the price makes sense

In that I agree . But doing a big trade is very difficult and most often than not , the result is no trade.

I think they will look at many “big fish”’options but I don’t think they will do a big trade at all cost .

I still think that no trade or smaller trade is probably more likely than not. But yes they will try for a big fish . But try doesn’t mean succeeding.

I just saying that it’s very possible we do a smaller trade but this doesn’t mean that THIS was the big fish. But unfortunately only a small fish trade succeed.

All trades are difficult and none of this is guaranteed its all speculation but I believe 100% Windy's report

Again, they will pull the trigger if they feel the price is right

but it looks like the mandate is to be as aggressive to as possible to find that big fish and based on the factors i listed before, this is absolutely the right decision

if the price is right, it can catapult us into contention for the east ... assuming this is for the white whale Giannis. Booker is off the table since he's been in the interview process

I also believe Windy 100%. When Windy speaks, I listens.

What is going on in Utah!!!

He is also very careful with what he says . The fact he singled out Toronto is also important. He could have said “ a team that missed the playoffs could try to land a big fish “ Naming Toronto is important.

But if at the end of summer, no trade happened or we only acquired a small fish, this would not means that Windy was wrong or that we didn’t try to get a bigger fish.

Basically I think we are saying the same thing.

[mihaic]

No concerns at all because sure he had injuries but he never had a career altering injury....It sucks to see any player go down but it happens in the NBA.....In the last 2 years Barnes played 60/65 games Giannis played 73/67....Point is Giannis injuries were not devasting to where it will impact his career like a MCL/ACL/Achillies type of injury....

I am sure Giannis will be fine...

positive energy! How many FRPs are you willing to trade then with Scottie included. IMO impossible to get Giannis without including Scottie.
I would prefer a much cheaper KD-BI-Barnes-Yak for a 2-year-win-now run.

The only reason we are even in the convo for Giannis is because we have Barnes + a clean draft sheet....#9 prolly gone as well as 3 FRP on top with maybe 1 protection on the latest pick you are giving up and possibly a pick swap in there....Suns gave up Cam/Bridges(Who at that time was a great young prospect) And 4 FRPs....So i don't see Giannis going for less picks than a 35 Year old KD.....Who knows what players get added to that but prolly Dick....But the main thing Bucks will want is Barnes + the picks in any deal for Giannis...

I have a feeling teams are (or will be) trading less picks in the new CBA era.

[mihaic]

"]



Doubt that gets it done....People forget Bucks do not control their own picks for many years....The reason they would go for younger players like Barnes instead of more established players like Brown/Mitchell/OG + Bridges type of packages is because we have the draft picks to add....If we don't give up draft picks the Bucks are not interested....Because there are better players on the market for Giannis than Barnes to make the Bucks a better team if winning is their goal....The only reason they accept Barnes is because hes young + we have lots of picks to add....If we don't give picks they prolly look elsewhere...

Not sure I get your logic.

If they don't control their picks they want YOUNG players that can help them win now and grow with their team, not picks 5 and 7 years from now and a shyte team that gives up their own lottery pick.

[sidsid]

Why is everyone still stuck on idea that superstars decline in their early 30s? If anything the last 5 years should show how you can expect Giannis to be MVP caliber player at least till 35, and an all star probably into late 30s easily.

The difference is Giannis’ game depends heavily on his ability to physically overwhelm his opponents. That tends to expire quicker than players whose advantages are more skill based. He will be a superstar until he’s 34. After that I think the decline will be swift. So if we do acquire him, our window is three to four years, which isn’t that bad because I’m of the opinion that we are deeper than we think.

I’d hate to see Scottie go but as much as I believe in him, his ceiling is below where Giannis is right now. If we win a championship again in the next three or four years and the cost of that is Scottie becoming a perennial all star somewhere else, I’m taking the ring.

I want to avoid anything that jeopardizes our future tanking picks as soon as that 2-3 year window ends. It's best to think of it as the LeBron Cavs championship mini run before he left for the Lakers.

Get Giannis, get Durant, get even the 3rd guy if cheap and keep every pick starting in 2027, or at least keep them all lottery protected.

Basically turn over the entire team for that 2 year window for another old superstar teamup and then they leave and we start tanking.

[TheRealDeal]

Imagine if we trade for Giannis without giving up Scottie and drop a nice rebrand in the same announcement. A man can dream