Bears 12.0

[jnrjr79]

I think he can outplay them (and reportedly has been), but even just conceptually, I do not agree with this.

If it was year 1 or either of the backups were high caliber backups, I would agree with you, so at a macro level, I don't think you are wrong, but in this specific case, I think if he can't outplay these two he is hopeless.

Again, I don't think that's a thing that will happen though (even if he is ultimately lousy, he'd have to be horrifically lousy for this to be true).

My thought is it would be unsurprising for a 2nd year pro in OTAs in June having to learn a brand new system to progress more slowly than a guy with 15 years of experience who has learned a lot of systems and played, at times, at a very high level.

If it's midseason and Caleb weren't the best option, then that's obviously much more of a red flag.

People calling for an open competition for the job in training camp, based on what has been seen at OTAs, totally mystify me. It's certainly not a sentiment I've seen anywhere but on this board.

[TheJordanRule]

Nobody is telling you to be excited. It’s ok to have a wait and see approach.

Even in Baegents two years he’s shown he’s nothing more than a back up at best. There’s absolutely nothing special about his game that tells you he should even be in a competition with Caleb for a starting spot.

Yes Caleb is entitled to start as the #1 pick. And no they aren’t going to throw him in a QB competition with a career journey man in Keenum who’s never proven he can be a starter for 17 games in any season of his career. Not with Baegent who has a career 3 TDs and 6 INTs in the few reps he has gotten.

Honestly what sense would that make after Caleb just threw for 3500 20TDs and 6INTs despite a coaching carousel happening mid season?

I agree with all of that.

Maybe it is just semantics, I wouldn't start camp going "Caleb, Case, and Tyson should all get 1st team reps", I think Caleb should go in as the starter. Just if for some reason, someone else is kicking his ass up and down the field, I don't care if we go with that guy.

Again, I think there is almost no chance that happens. I was really arguing against my perception of the stated belief that Caleb should start even if he can't outperform these guys rather than meaning they should all start out on equal footing in terms of the org or that we should try different QBs and see what happens in real games.

IMO, the problem with this viewpoint is that Caleb turning into a long-term success is a more important goal for the franchise than wins and losses in 2025. So they are obviously going to give Caleb at least the entire season to show what he can do, barring some sort of injury or absolute disaster. If you can make a developmental argument that riding the pine is better for Caleb in the long-term, ok. But whether or not he starts should not be a function of how he performs in training camp or the first few games of the season or whatever.

I agree it's a discouraging sign if he isn't clearly the best QB on the roster, I just don't think you bench him if that's the case.

What are any of these kids gaining thru entitlement minutes? It's the wrong mentality. Let's go back to the roots of Mamba Mentality. Gloves off. Embrace The Challenge. Not the Give Me but The Challenge. Overcome all obstacles thru intense work ethic and outplaying people. Understand that just trying hard is not enough. Increase what you can control: the time you spend training, understanding the game including reviewing tape, your efficiency at activities, etc. There is NO substitute / replacement for that mindset. CW will prove it this year. CW IS KOBE!

[fleet]

what on earth could you possibly be basing this on

Things that teammates, coaches, guys like Case Keenam, NFL people say about him? Media talking about his demeanor around the team?

It’s no secret that Baegent is a likable guy and likely a hard worker.

With that said that’s not enough.

Production matters. The only point I’m making is that we don’t know enough to make definitive proclamations before the careers happen. That’s why we don’t computer simulate the NFL season and crown a championship with an IBM computer in October.

[fleet]

I think he can outplay them (and reportedly has been), but even just conceptually, I do not agree with this.

If it was year 1 or either of the backups were high caliber backups, I would agree with you, so at a macro level, I don't think you are wrong, but in this specific case, I think if he can't outplay these two he is hopeless.

Again, I don't think that's a thing that will happen though (even if he is ultimately lousy, he'd have to be horrifically lousy for this to be true).

Generally speaking true. If the team is producing points and winning, it will be difficult to get Caleb out of the saddle. As long as Caleb is on the team. Ben Johnson is probably not a coach that would not have an eye out for a guy he can work with on his own terms. Like, I don’t believe Ben Johnson is going to go, “this guy never runs the plays the way they are designed. But I have to stick with him because that’s who the GM and ownership wants”. Ben has a lot of juice. He wants one standard. He could push for a QB change, or he can easily move on to greener pastures to a place where he can get what he wants. It might not be to his advantage though, and that’s a balance. A lot of context has to be filled in to accept a certain future with no caveats. The Lions moved on from Mathew Stafford. Nothing wrong with Mathew, but if things are not seen as the best available circumstances to move forward with, things can change.

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[Dresden]

That is good to hear. Plain English, "he was late". Caleb will be coached to do things the right way, not his way. There's no reason to expect he won't be able to get it right sooner or later.

[TheGOATRises007]

It is refreshing to have a head coach who speaks with sincerity and authority + giving off charismatic vibes.

Eberflus was never HC material.

[Chi town]

It is refreshing to have a head coach who speaks with sincerity and authority + giving off charismatic vibes.

Eberflus was never HC material.

Eberflop was a nice guy. Not a HC at all.

Ben is a leader. I fully expect guys to rise and some to fall and be traded or cut.

[sco]

Nobody is telling you to be excited. It’s ok to have a wait and see approach.

Even in Baegents two years he’s shown he’s nothing more than a back up at best. There’s absolutely nothing special about his game that tells you he should even be in a competition with Caleb for a starting spot.

Yes Caleb is entitled to start as the #1 pick. And no they aren’t going to throw him in a QB competition with a career journey man in Keenum who’s never proven he can be a starter for 17 games in any season of his career. Not with Baegent who has a career 3 TDs and 6 INTs in the few reps he has gotten.

Honestly what sense would that make after Caleb just threw for 3500 20TDs and 6INTs despite a coaching carousel happening mid season?

I agree with all of that.

Maybe it is just semantics, I wouldn't start camp going "Caleb, Case, and Tyson should all get 1st team reps", I think Caleb should go in as the starter. Just if for some reason, someone else is kicking his ass up and down the field, I don't care if we go with that guy.

Again, I think there is almost no chance that happens. I was really arguing against my perception of the stated belief that Caleb should start even if he can't outperform these guys rather than meaning they should all start out on equal footing in terms of the org or that we should try different QBs and see what happens in real games.

Some here think that the goal is to win as many games as possible this season, which is logical. That said, I think the goal is to win as many games with Caleb at QB as possible, right or wrong, they aren't going to give backups a chance unless it is clear that Caleb is a bust (i.e. we go 1-10 and Caleb backslides statistically).

[dice]

Nobody is telling you to be excited. It’s ok to have a wait and see approach.

Even in Baegents two years he’s shown he’s nothing more than a back up at best. There’s absolutely nothing special about his game that tells you he should even be in a competition with Caleb for a starting spot.

Yes Caleb is entitled to start as the #1 pick. And no they aren’t going to throw him in a QB competition with a career journey man in Keenum who’s never proven he can be a starter for 17 games in any season of his career. Not with Baegent who has a career 3 TDs and 6 INTs in the few reps he has gotten.

Honestly what sense would that make after Caleb just threw for 3500 20TDs and 6INTs despite a coaching carousel happening mid season?

I agree with all of that.

Maybe it is just semantics, I wouldn't start camp going "Caleb, Case, and Tyson should all get 1st team reps", I think Caleb should go in as the starter. Just if for some reason, someone else is kicking his ass up and down the field, I don't care if we go with that guy.

Again, I think there is almost no chance that happens. I was really arguing against my perception of the stated belief that Caleb should start even if he can't outperform these guys rather than meaning they should all start out on equal footing in terms of the org or that we should try different QBs and see what happens in real games.

Some here think that the goal is to win as many games as possible this season, which is logical. That said, I think the goal is to win as many games with Caleb at QB as possible, right or wrong, they aren't going to give backups a chance unless it is clear that Caleb is a bust (i.e. we go 1-10 and Caleb backslides statistically).

bears were 1-4 and trailing vikings at home when fields got injured and bagent stepped in. bagent then performed admirably for 4.5 games before being taken back out. why would we think that he would get remarkably different treatment when the current competition was the #1 overall pick just a year ago? and whose failure might be the death knell of the GM?

as for keenum, he has had 1 career season better than what caleb had last year under trying circumstances as a rookie

[fleet]

Bagent didn’t have his best day today, keeping it clear. He won’t be stopping Keenan from the #2 job like that. And if Keenan didn’t think he had the inside lane to Caleb’s backup, he was already half retired before he talked to BJ about signing here. So he could have easily said no thanks to the job. Bagent is swimming upstream.

[Dresden]

Trapillo had all the first team reps yesterday- sounds like he's moved ahead of Kiran for now at LT.

[dougthonus]

My thought is it would be unsurprising for a 2nd year pro in OTAs in June having to learn a brand new system to progress more slowly than a guy with 15 years of experience who has learned a lot of systems and played, at times, at a very high level.

If it's midseason and Caleb weren't the best option, then that's obviously much more of a red flag.

People calling for an open competition for the job in training camp, based on what has been seen at OTAs, totally mystify me. It's certainly not a sentiment I've seen anywhere but on this board.

I'm with you, also not calling for an open comp or saying if Case or Bagent looks better in June. I'm also talking more like mid-season.

[dougthonus]

Some here think that the goal is to win as many games as possible this season, which is logical. That said, I think the goal is to win as many games with Caleb at QB as possible, right or wrong, they aren't going to give backups a chance unless it is clear that Caleb is a bust (i.e. we go 1-10 and Caleb backslides statistically).

The goal is to win a title, and to position yourself to do so. That probably isn't going to happen this year, so the goal is to do whatever you need to this year that positions you to do it as soon as possible. That likely involves developing Caleb, but at some point this year, it isn't insane to think it also means realizing Caleb isn't the guy if he can't hit some milestones.

[Hold That]

Some here think that the goal is to win as many games as possible this season, which is logical. That said, I think the goal is to win as many games with Caleb at QB as possible, right or wrong, they aren't going to give backups a chance unless it is clear that Caleb is a bust (i.e. we go 1-10 and Caleb backslides statistically).

The goal is to win a title, and to position yourself to do so. That probably isn't going to happen this year, so the goal is to do whatever you need to this year that positions you to do it as soon as possible. That likely involves developing Caleb, but at some point this year, it isn't insane to think it also means realizing Caleb isn't the guy if he can't hit some milestones.

I agree. The only thing Caleb has secured in his tenure is to be starter in 2025.

If he fails this year I would not be upset if the Bears ultimately want to pivot. Especially if Johnson proves to be a viable coach and Caleb is simply just not getting it.

[Susan]

Some here think that the goal is to win as many games as possible this season, which is logical. That said, I think the goal is to win as many games with Caleb at QB as possible, right or wrong, they aren't going to give backups a chance unless it is clear that Caleb is a bust (i.e. we go 1-10 and Caleb backslides statistically).

The goal is to win a title, and to position yourself to do so. That probably isn't going to happen this year, so the goal is to do whatever you need to this year that positions you to do it as soon as possible. That likely involves developing Caleb, but at some point this year, it isn't insane to think it also means realizing Caleb isn't the guy if he can't hit some milestones.

I agree. The only thing Caleb has secured in his tenure is to be starter in 2025.

If he fails this year I would not be upset if the Bears ultimately want to pivot. Especially if Johnson proves to be a viable coach and Caleb is simply just not getting it.

For the 4th year in a row now - if the offense fails this season it won't be because the QB lacks talent but rather the OL was incapable of holding a pocket.

Thinking of moving off of Caleb ALREADY is hilarious and asinine. Do you guys follow the sport?

[TheJordanRule]

The goal is to win a title, and to position yourself to do so. That probably isn't going to happen this year, so the goal is to do whatever you need to this year that positions you to do it as soon as possible. That likely involves developing Caleb, but at some point this year, it isn't insane to think it also means realizing Caleb isn't the guy if he can't hit some milestones.

I agree. The only thing Caleb has secured in his tenure is to be starter in 2025.

If he fails this year I would not be upset if the Bears ultimately want to pivot. Especially if Johnson proves to be a viable coach and Caleb is simply just not getting it.

For the 4th year in a row now - if the offense fails this season it won't be because the QB lacks talent but rather the OL was incapable of holding a pocket.

Thinking of moving off of Caleb ALREADY is hilarious and asinine. Do you guys follow the sport?

Hold on, brother. NONE of us are moving off Caleb already. We're just saying that if he really is That Dude at QB, (and I believe he is) he will prove it out on that field this year. The OL just added 3 proven, high quality starters plus an OT from the second round and TWO more dynamic marque receivers from the first and second rounds PLUS the best offensive mind in the game at HC. No more excuses, brother. We are LOADED! I was following much the same mindset when it came to Justin. It was always the OL's fault that Justin couldn't move the chains. Nah, it's time to leave that excuse filled thought process behind! #JustBeingHonest

[Susan]

I agree. The only thing Caleb has secured in his tenure is to be starter in 2025.

If he fails this year I would not be upset if the Bears ultimately want to pivot. Especially if Johnson proves to be a viable coach and Caleb is simply just not getting it.

For the 4th year in a row now - if the offense fails this season it won't be because the QB lacks talent but rather the OL was incapable of holding a pocket.

Thinking of moving off of Caleb ALREADY is hilarious and asinine. Do you guys follow the sport?

Hold on, brother. NONE of us are moving off Caleb already. We're just saying that if he really is That Dude at QB, (and I believe he is) he will prove it out on that field this year. The OL just added 3 proven, high quality starters plus an OT from the second round and TWO more dynamic marque receivers from the first and second rounds PLUS the best offensive mind in the game at HC. No more excuses, brother. We are LOADED! I was following much the same mindset when it came to Justin. It was always the OL's fault that Justin couldn't move the chains. Nah, it's time to leave that excuse filled thought process behind! #JustBeingHonest

Thuney is gonna be 33, this is when top level guards have started to fall off.

Jackson has missed 4+ games in each of the last 3 seasons and was worthless last year

No clue what LT it'll be but let's pump the brakes on a RT in college being able to play LT as a rookie

Poles hasn't had any cohesiveness in his OL because he's over invested in weapons (and the QB) and the team has stunk because of it. Let's see a healthy OL before we crown Poles for his moves.

[dougthonus]

For the 4th year in a row now - if the offense fails this season it won't be because the QB lacks talent but rather the OL was incapable of holding a pocket.

Thinking of moving off of Caleb ALREADY is hilarious and asinine. Do you guys follow the sport?

What do you think about someone who misconstrues what is said, converts it to something totally different, then mocks and insults people based on their own strawman interpretations?

[Susan]

For the 4th year in a row now - if the offense fails this season it won't be because the QB lacks talent but rather the OL was incapable of holding a pocket.

Thinking of moving off of Caleb ALREADY is hilarious and asinine. Do you guys follow the sport?

What do you think about someone who misconstrues what is said, converts it to something totally different, then mocks and insults people based on their own strawman interpretations?

Thid whole page is about thinking about pivoting from Caleb, the last few pages were about the merits ofTyson Bagent potentially being a starter quality NFL QB.

Where's the misconstruing? Caleb won't go before Poles is fired unless he pulls some DeShaun Watson sort of stuff.

[TheJordanRule]

For the 4th year in a row now - if the offense fails this season it won't be because the QB lacks talent but rather the OL was incapable of holding a pocket.

Thinking of moving off of Caleb ALREADY is hilarious and asinine. Do you guys follow the sport?

Hold on, brother. NONE of us are moving off Caleb already. We're just saying that if he really is That Dude at QB, (and I believe he is) he will prove it out on that field this year. The OL just added 3 proven, high quality starters plus an OT from the second round and TWO more dynamic marque receivers from the first and second rounds PLUS the best offensive mind in the game at HC. No more excuses, brother. We are LOADED! I was following much the same mindset when it came to Justin. It was always the OL's fault that Justin couldn't move the chains. Nah, it's time to leave that excuse filled thought process behind! #JustBeingHonest

Thuney is gonna be 33, this is when top level guards have started to fall off.

Jackson has missed 4+ games in each of the last 3 seasons and was worthless last year

No clue what LT it'll be but let's pump the brakes on a RT in college being able to play LT as a rookie

Poles hasn't had any cohesiveness in his OL because he's over invested in weapons (and the QB) and the team has stunk because of it. Let's see a healthy OL before we crown Poles for his moves.

Hmm... honestly, yes! Poles has frequently disrespected the trenches during his time with us. But this offseason, I find it really hard to argue with his moves. We were a pretty meh / average OL last year, but--we added three new starters, each one an upgrade over what we had. If good QBs can get it done with average offensive lines, and CW is getting an above average OL, what excuse does he have? Your point about Thuney is well worth considering. We won't know if he's washed until he puts the pads on, so let's monitor his performance and the performance of our other starters carefully. But if the OL is playing well, giving CW a "pass" on a bad performance doesn't ring true as the right thing to do. I don't think he's even looking for that, either. His mindset is Kobe-like. CW IS KOBE, BROTHERS!