Windhorst: Raptors making noise around the league looking for a “big fish” // Giannis & Toronto "Mutual Interest"/KD too

[Clutch0z24]

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Doubt that gets it done....People forget Bucks do not control their own picks for many years....The reason they would go for younger players like Barnes instead of more established players like Brown/Mitchell/OG + Bridges type of packages is because we have the draft picks to add....If we don't give up draft picks the Bucks are not interested....Because there are better players on the market for Giannis than Barnes to make the Bucks a better team if winning is their goal....The only reason they accept Barnes is because hes young + we have lots of picks to add....If we don't give picks they prolly look elsewhere...

Not sure I get your logic.

If they don't control their picks they want YOUNG players that can help them win now and grow with their team, not picks 5 and 7 years from now and a shyte team that gives up their own lottery pick.

Since they don't have draft picks they can't tank....Young players do not impact winning very often...Which is why a Barnes lead Raptors have not made the playoffs....If you are going after young players you also want picks back so at least at the end of a prolly losing season you have draft picks to keep building ....You do not want to be a lotto bad team and not have any draft picks at all....That leaves you in NBA Hell as fans/franchise...

As for packages if the Teams that have young players + picks to offer ....Spurs/Rockets/Raptors type teams....If they do not offer up the young players + the picks then why wouldn't the Bucks just go for more talented established players in a deal like All star Brown/Mitchell/OG-Bridges or KAT...To win and try and compete because they would have no draft picks anyways...

It would be like saying the Rockets could get Giannis by just offering up Sengun/10th pick/Jabari Smith and Aaron Holiday....Do you see that package and think Rockets could actually get Giannis for it? Because thats a sim Package as Barnes/Dick/9th/Ochai

[ash_k]

With KD-BI-Scottie-Yak, the league would have never seen such a line-up that fits so well with all the length and talent (and with some load management)

If we go for Giannis(-BI-Yak) then it would mean relying potentially on IQ(totally choked in his last playoffs) with questionable abilities to beat his man off the dribble and Ochai as your starting backcourt.

Shead can't take over soon enough...

[KP730]

lol @ the “big fish” ending up being Cam Johnson

[JB7]

Doubt that gets it done....People forget Bucks do not control their own picks for many years....The reason they would go for younger players like Barnes instead of more established players like Brown/Mitchell/OG + Bridges type of packages is because we have the draft picks to add....If we don't give up draft picks the Bucks are not interested....Because there are better players on the market for Giannis than Barnes to make the Bucks a better team if winning is their goal....The only reason they accept Barnes is because hes young + we have lots of picks to add....If we don't give picks they prolly look elsewhere...

Yes, the Bucks not controlling their draft picks is the reason they would be more interested in Barnes, Dick, Agbaji & the 9th pick. They could reset their starting lineup with young players that have upward potential.

Much better in the short and long term than FRPs way out into the future, from a team they just traded a superstar too, and that is relatively young. Those FRPs would most likely be in the 20's, versus Barnes (4th pick), 2025 9th pick, Dick (13th pick), Agbaji (14th pick).

I would think they value the young more known quantities over the unknown future, and bleak short term.

If Barnes is in the deal, then the Rockets need to start with Amen, Cavs need start with Mobley, and Magic need to start with Franz. I don't know if the 2nd pick from SAS can match any of those names.

No one will convince me a package of Barnes/Dick/9th pick (Could be a good player might not draft is a gamble), Agbaji is enough to get an all time great....And no....Rockets start with any of Sengun/Green/Reed Shepp/Jabari Smith/10th pick< Good as Barnes/Dick/9th , Cavs could either give up Mobley or Mitchell ....Whichever one because Giannis is an upgrade over either....Magic would start with Franz/Suggs + Picks....Spurs have 2nd pick/14th pick, a bunch of other teams picks + their own, Castle/Vassell/Keldon ....

All these players ^ Would be in play for Giannis and the draft picks will also be added in them packages....That is why i said Bucks will make this a bidding war and it will take a good package to get Giannis....It won't be a few players and a bag of chips you prolly have to give up a haul...

Giannis is a top 3 player in the NBA and hes not old...Hes in his prime still...

What I was trying to say about Barnes is, once he is offered, it ups the stakes for the other teams, because the Bucks, in addition to adding multiple pieces to help replace Giannis, are also going to be focused on the best player coming back.

For the Rockets, the comparator to Barnes is Amen. Sengun is good, but Amen's athletic ability is special. Bucks will want the best young talent back in the deal, if the Raps are offering Barnes. They need a marque talent to emphasize. Rockets are probably the greatest competition in terms of what they can offer, if Amen is the centerpiece. Problem is the team as a whole isn't a great fit with Giannis. And they are in the West. So how interested is Giannis in going there?

And for the Raps offer, in addition to Barnes, Dick, Agbaji & the 9th pick, I also said they would offer at least another FRP, and possibly swaps. Maybe even 2 FRPs. I just don't see Masai offering all the teams draft capital for the next 5-6 years, like the Suns did.

Also, in addition to Giannis picking where he probably wants to go, I can't imagine he would want that team striped of all its assets, so they have nothing to move to upgrade in the future.

And Barnes (PF), Dick (SF), Agbaji (SG), 9th pick (could be their replacement C in Maluach or Queen) and they could sign a PG like Brogdon, until Dame returns, which gives them a starting lineup. That is probably a team that stays above the bottom of the East, Utah and New Orleans and has upward potential as the young core develops. At least they are starting with something from day 1 that they can build an grow with.

[sidsid]

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Pretty much what you have to say when your player is untradeable.

Now that Dumars is GM, the last time he had another team's pick fall in the top 5 picks of a draft (if he keeps the Buck's picks and it happens), he ended up picking the only bust of the best draft of the century.

He should trade Zion and the picks just to avoid the chance of that happening again.

[PhilBlackson]

I'll throw out a likely unpopular opinion/might get flamed for it take but idgaf and argue with a wall buuut......

Personally IF the rumors are true that the Pels are willing to trade anyone on their roster because they're looking to restart/rebuild yet again, then I say f mortgaging our entire future on a VERY risky move for Giannis or even half a mortgage on an old KD and focus our efforts on getting one player:

TREY MURPHY

I mean I would've assumed that Trey is who they'd like to hold onto the most but I could've sworn I read that the Pels said there were "no untouchables" (according to Yahoo Sports about a week ago) and IF that were the case I rather use assets on getting Murphy. If that means we have to trade the 9th and maybe even another future 1st...heck maybe they push to include Gradey too, so be it. I think he'd be damn near a perfect fit both stylistically and timeline.

While most importantly still leaving us with a ton of flexibility to make another future move to get them over the top but I believe the trio of Trey/BI/Scottie with good surrounding depth could compete with anyone in the East and again if we retain majority of our assets there could still be a final chess move to put that squad over the top. Personally I like that path more but that's just me.

[KP730]

With KD-BI-Scottie-Yak, the league would have never seen such a line-up that fits so well with all the length and talent (and with some load management)

If we go for Giannis(-BI-Yak) then it would mean relying potentially on IQ(totally choked in his last playoffs) with questionable abilities to beat his man off the dribble and Ochai as your starting backcourt.

Shead can't take over soon enough...

I also feel a KD type of move would be far less risky and more suitable for where our team is at

problem with the Giannis deal is it will deplete us for years from the draft collateral/assets needed to make these second/third moves to build a real contender

We just aren’t a team ready for a Giannis deal, while there are several teams (especially in the West) who are ready for that deal…like the Spurs are built to be true contenders with that move, and would still have the assets needed to make other big follow up moves…

[mulamutti]

i haven't watched much bball in 1.5 years. is giannis as good as he used to be? is he getting more skilled? or does he still rely on physicality?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

It's all good the extension counts against Milwaukee's cap even if Scottie is dealt before July 1st

Yah, but it makes salaries pretty much impossible to match when Scottie only counts for $10 million outgoing on the Raptors cap sheet.

Let’s say you add RJ, him + Scottie would count as ~$63 million in incoming salary for Milwaukee but only ~$35 mil in outgoing salary for Toronto.

Neither team has any cap space, so no matter what combination of players you add, one side is gonna have too much incoming salary if Scottie’s involved.

This explained the issue I was having with the ESPN trade machine

Once I fixed the Raptors side, there was too much incoming for Milwaukee.

I didn’t realize it was because the Incoming for Milwaukee is 38M while it’s the OUTGOING for Toronto is 10M.

Scottie counts for his full extension against Milwaukee's cap (not 10 million) even before July 1st, this is not an issue.

[Scase]

Giannis contract:

25/26 (31): 54.1M
26/27 (32): 58.4M
27/28 (33): 62.7M (player option)
28/29 (34): FA

Basically a 3 year window with him because it's unlikely he declines a 60+ mill option at 33/34 years old.

I think chances are he does opt out for one more big contract. If he plays the way he has, and I don’t see why not - someone will give him the max.

Whoever is trading for him is maxing him again. With superstars, this is where the max contracts are a bargain. The max contracts underrepresent what they could get paid absent these restrictions.

Max contracts are bargains normally, they are not when they are 35-39 years old, then they are weights around your ankles. Lebron is the absolute best case possible, and even then the lakers are still struggling to field a team because of how much they have tied up in him with his declining production and one way play.

Giannis' entire game is predicated on athleticism, which declines the earliest. He's not a dumb player by any stretch, but he's not a particularly "cerebral" player either.

[disoblige]

Toronto Raptors Emerge as Top Contender for Giannis Antetokounmpo After Odds Surge

Only the Milwaukee Bucks (−140), San Antonio Spurs (+380), and Houston Rockets (+450) sit ahead of Toronto as the betting favorites to be Antetokounmpo’s team next season. The Raptors have now leapfrogged several teams including the Dallas Mavericks, Oklahoma City Thunder, and New York Knicks, as speculation around Antetokounmpo’s future continues to build.

https://www.si.com/nba/raptors/toronto-raptors-chances-to-land-giannis-antetokounmpo-in-offseason-trade

[WuTang_CMB]

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[PhilBlackson]

With KD-BI-Scottie-Yak, the league would have never seen such a line-up that fits so well with all the length and talent (and with some load management)

If we go for Giannis(-BI-Yak) then it would mean relying potentially on IQ(totally choked in his last playoffs) with questionable abilities to beat his man off the dribble and Ochai as your starting backcourt.

Shead can't take over soon enough...

I also feel a KD type of move would be far less risky and more suitable for where our team is at

problem with the Giannis deal is it will deplete us for years from the draft collateral/assets needed to make these second/third moves to build a real contender

We just aren’t a team ready for a Giannis deal, while there are several teams (especially in the West) who are ready for that deal…like the Spurs are built to be true contenders with that move, and would still have the assets needed to make other big follow up moves…

Ill be one of the few to echo agreement on this...although again personally I would focus on trying to acquire Trey Murphy the most as I think he'd be both the lowest cost (both figuretively & literally), best match with our timeline and give us the most future flexibility as we'd retain most of our depth, assets and cap room BUT

Between going for Giannis or KD, I know Giannis is the better player but I think the cost/risk is too prohibitive. If BI goes down for any length of time, this team is screwed and Giannis won't be happy and a real risk to leave and/or Giannis himself has been battling with some injuries which I think has a lot to do with the cumulative amount of workload he's had to put on himself with Middleton and then Dame's scoring gone. If BI is down, it's just too much and we won't have any assets to figure out how to add some depth to help buy any time.

With KD on the otherhand, we retain Scottie and BI and KD could really basically help carry each other. You could always have one of them in the game so there's no scoring droughts, when they're both playing they could be dynamic offensively since it would also put Scottie in his ideal richman Draymond role and maybe you gave a couple of picks or so that only effect while both of those guys are still on your roster so it's likely not a major setback. But you still have some pieces to work with, with the remaining depth and even those couple of picks to make some tweaks or just hold onto to prevent just a distasterous post-trade life as would be the case with Giannis.

So for me, I was the FO, it would be Murphy, KD and then Giannis. I understand the player gets better and better but the cost also gets bigger and bigger and leaves us with less & less to sort things out if things don't go according to plan and I don't think we're in a position where adding Giannis ensures contention for the next several years if we've gutted all our depth and assets.

[Clutch0z24]

With KD-BI-Scottie-Yak, the league would have never seen such a line-up that fits so well with all the length and talent (and with some load management)

If we go for Giannis(-BI-Yak) then it would mean relying potentially on IQ(totally choked in his last playoffs) with questionable abilities to beat his man off the dribble and Ochai as your starting backcourt.

Shead can't take over soon enough...

I also feel a KD type of move would be far less risky and more suitable for where our team is at

problem with the Giannis deal is it will deplete us for years from the draft collateral/assets needed to make these second/third moves to build a real contender

We just aren’t a team ready for a Giannis deal, while there are several teams (especially in the West) who are ready for that deal…like the Spurs are built to be true contenders with that move, and would still have the assets needed to make other big follow up moves…

Yeah KD would be a good move and could be a great fit...But with Masai a guy who has been chasing Giannis for 15 years....I think Giannis is Masai dream player to be in Toronto...So you have to think of it from Masai mind....He prolly is way higher on Giannis then anyone on this site since he knows him so well and been wanting him on his team for so long....I think Masai will do W/E it takes to get Giannis here even if it costs alot...

KD also has to agree to come here since he has 1 year left he will prolly have lots of say where he goes....But i would not mind KD here at all but i think of it from Masai POV and i think Giannis is his target...

[Basketball_Jones]

I mean, there’s two things masai has been able to do. Blockbuster trades for a star (kawhi/gasol/ingram) and draft. One strength counters the other unfortunately gotta trade picks to get the star. So I wouldn’t be surprised if we do land Giannis. I just don’t think it makes us contenders like the Kawhi trade unless we land someone else equivalent to Danny Green from Milwaukee. Yes, Green was pretty huge in the deal too.

[ForeverTFC]

I think chances are he does opt out for one more big contract. If he plays the way he has, and I don’t see why not - someone will give him the max.

Whoever is trading for him is maxing him again. With superstars, this is where the max contracts are a bargain. The max contracts underrepresent what they could get paid absent these restrictions.

Max contracts are bargains normally, they are not when they are 35-39 years old, then they are weights around your ankles. Lebron is the absolute best case possible, and even then the lakers are still struggling to field a team because of how much they have tied up in him with his declining production and one way play.

Giannis' entire game is predicated on athleticism, which declines the earliest. He's not a dumb player by any stretch, but he's not a particularly "cerebral" player either.

Giannis probably declines the player option and adds 3 years to his contract. That takes him to his age 35 season. So you're getting the end of his prime + 1 to 2 years at most of some decline. Contract should be fine but you need to start trying to win right away. I'm totally fine with this.

KD on the other hand is going into his age 37 season next year. Any extension for him takes him to 38, so the over 38 provision comes into play and he can extend for 2 more years max, taking him to 39. Any other player, I'd say no. But KD? If the price is right and you can make the team work around him such that you don't need him to defend and can live with 50 games a season with a healthy playoffs, I'd consider it.

[Clutch0z24]

I mean, there’s two things masai has been able to do. Blockbuster trades for a star (kawhi/gasol/ingram) and draft. One strength counters the other unfortunately gotta trade picks to get the star. So I wouldn’t be surprised if we do land Giannis. I just don’t think it makes us contenders like the Kawhi trade unless we land someone else equivalent to Danny Green from Milwaukee. Yes, Green was pretty huge in the deal too.

I think Ingram is being under rated by this thread...I think Ingram Paired with Barnes that is a decent team but Giannis paired with Ingram thats an elite duo...Think of all the players Giannis played with over his career with the Bucks....Ingram is up there with the best players on that list...

Ofc it will take building but Masai has shown to be pretty great at adding talent around a true number 1...Last years draft is a perfect example with how he was able to add depth in just 1 draft with 2nd rounders.....Also who knows ...Giannis might make us more attractive to valuable vets who want to ring chase....That could help us out as well....

If im Masai i would attempt to keep RJ out of the Giannis trade and use Barrett to trade for 2nd rounders + depth pieces that would fit Giannis game....Or one other good player that fits Giannis more...

[YogurtProducer]

With KD-BI-Scottie-Yak, the league would have never seen such a line-up that fits so well with all the length and talent (and with some load management)

If we go for Giannis(-BI-Yak) then it would mean relying potentially on IQ(totally choked in his last playoffs) with questionable abilities to beat his man off the dribble and Ochai as your starting backcourt.

Shead can't take over soon enough...

Lmao at trying to write off IQ based on one playoff appearance and wanting the 2nd round rookie to take over

[Westside Gunn]

i haven't watched much bball in 1.5 years. is giannis as good as he used to be? is he getting more skilled? or does he still rely on physicality?

Top 3 in the league, athleticism and physicality might become a concern in 2-3 years unless he's lebron genetically. That's why the Raptors have a short window with him to win it all.

Anytime you can get a Top 3 player in the league, you do it, specially if he has a connection to Toronto, via Masai

[Son Goku 25]

i haven't watched much bball in 1.5 years. is giannis as good as he used to be? is he getting more skilled? or does he still rely on physicality?

Top 3 in the league, athleticism and physicality might become a concern in 2-3 years unless he's lebron genetically. That's why the Raptors have a short window with him to win it all.

Anytime you can get a Top 3 player in the league, you do it, specially if he has a connection to Toronto, via Masai

I personally think so long as he doesn't have any major injuries he'll be top 10 for another 5 years, top 5 for another few years.