OT: Djoker Becomes Undisputed GOAT

[-Luke-]

Nadal missed a lot of his Grand Slam appearances in the last few years or at the beginning of his career, when he wasn't really a contender other than on clay. Assuming he would've won half of those tournaments if healthy is silly. With the head-to-head comparison one also has to take into account that Nadal and especially Federer were already the cream of the crop when Djokovic was an up-and-coming player. He had to play against them in their primes at the beginning of his pro career.

Federer is still my favorite, he just had a beautiful game. But Djokovic is the GOAT. Also, thanks for beating Zverev who is somewhere near tooth decay in my personal rankings.

[Rust_Cohle]

OT but I always winced watching Nadal slide on hard courts. The joint impact took way longer than I thought it would, but eventually took its toll.

Oh yeah, he was probably the most athletic of the 3 and an absolute warrior but the beating he put his body through was insane. He squeezed every ounce he could out of his career.

It's why he is so far behind Novak and Fed in weeks at #1. It wasn't that he was a bad hard court player. He was an excellent hard court player (he won 6 HC slams), it's that he could rarely stay healthy for a full season. His style of play is absolutely a big reason for that.

That’s his issue though, Djokovic has a vastly superior H2H to him and considering he hasn’t beaten him in 12 years it’s a hell of a lot more than just injuries.

It’s 20-7 in favor of Novak. Nadal over Djokovic on clay is 20-8 despite nadal being that good on clay.

Hence nadal doesn’t really have a goat argument but certainly a clay argument.

[Rust_Cohle]

Nadal missed a lot of his Grand Slam appearances in the last few years or at the beginning of his career, when he wasn't really a contender other than on clay. Assuming he would've won half of those tournaments if healthy is silly. With the head-to-head comparison one also has to take into account that Nadal and especially Federer were already the cream of the crop when Djokovic was an up-and-coming player. He had to play against them in their primes at the beginning of his pro career.

Federer is still my favorite, he just had a beautiful game. But Djokovic is the GOAT. Also, thanks for beating Zverev who is somewhere near tooth decay in my personal rankings.

Well said, Federer will always be the people’s champion.

Not embracing Djokovic/Federer but awesome to see him make the semis.

Zverev’s tactics were bizarre. His best game was ironically the very last one of that match.

[Sgt Major]

Federer is Western people's champion, Novak is loved way more in India and China, for example.

I still watch the highlights from this match from time to time:

Watch on YouTube

[LordCovington33]

Djokovic easily did. His run from 2010-2024 is the greatest 14 year stretch on a variety of surfaces in tennis history. Superior H2H to nadal and Federer. Nadal hasn’t beaten Djokovic on a hardcourt since 2013…and he’s younger than him.

Novak 2011 and 2015 might be 2 of the most dominant seasons in the history of tennis.

I would say Federer’s 2006 season (92-5) and McEnroe’s 1984 season (82-3) are more dominant in recent years. But in the history of the open era, nobody can top Laver’s 1969 run where he won all four slams and is the only player to win more than 100 matches in a year (106).

Novak had much much harder competition than Federer 2006. Federer 2017 is underrated though.

True, but you said the most dominant. To win almost all your matches in a year is true domination.

[bledredwine]

undisputed my ass.

He is behind Nadal and federer.

he has only taken advantage of the other two being older and with poor health that made them miss a lot gs.

You get it.

It’s so ridiculous for anyone to prop any of Sampras, Federer, Nadal and Djokovic over each other because they all played at a similar level. Sampras had unbelievable power and aggression, Federer placement and finesse, and so on.

They all look like freaks in their own way and dominated everyone in their prime.

Yes, I also hate when someone puts Jordan above Drexler, Dominique Wilkins...
Whoever watched them play could see how close they are.
And Nick could fly too.
Now we have people placing so much on wins in team sport. If only it was individual sport and they played in the same era so we could see by simpe numbers, who win more h2h matches, thropys, ect there would be no argument...

What an excellent comparison, seeing as Drexler and Wilkins were once heralded as the GOAT, never played in their primes and play a single player sport.

That makes a lot of sense!

[BelgradeNugget]

You get it.

It’s so ridiculous for anyone to prop any of Sampras, Federer, Nadal and Djokovic over each other because they all played at a similar level. Sampras had unbelievable power and aggression, Federer placement and finesse, and so on.

They all look like freaks in their own way and dominated everyone in their prime.

Yes, I also hate when someone puts Jordan above Drexler, Dominique Wilkins...
Whoever watched them play could see how close they are.
And Nick could fly too.
Now we have people placing so much on wins in team sport. If only it was individual sport and they played in the same era so we could see by simpe numbers, who win more h2h matches, thropys, ect there would be no argument...

What an excellent comparison, seeing as Drexler and Wilkins were once heralded as the GOAT, never played in their primes and play a single player sport.

That makes a lot of sense!

More than not recognising when 1 player in individual sport has all the records while playing at the same time as other 2 you mentioned.
And he doubled Sampras in everything that counts in tennis, while playing against 2nd and 3rd best of all time.
There is no such thing as clear GOAT in any sport except man's tennis, and Novak is the one.
No argument there

[bledredwine]

Yes, I also hate when someone puts Jordan above Drexler, Dominique Wilkins...
Whoever watched them play could see how close they are.
And Nick could fly too.
Now we have people placing so much on wins in team sport. If only it was individual sport and they played in the same era so we could see by simpe numbers, who win more h2h matches, thropys, ect there would be no argument...

What an excellent comparison, seeing as Drexler and Wilkins were once heralded as the GOAT, never played in their primes and play a single player sport.

That makes a lot of sense!

More than not recognising when 1 player in individual sport has all the records while playing at the same time as other 2 you mentioned.
And he doubled Sampras in everything that counts in tennis, while playing against 2nd and 3rd best of all time.
There is no such thing as clear GOAT in any sport except man's tennis, and Novak is the one.
No argument there

Plenty of argument here. Djokovic had no one strong like Federer or Nadal in their prime. In a single man sport, that’s plenty of argument. And lol at the other comment when you have Ruth, Pele, Gretzky and Jordan. But you’re just that much of a fanboy! Very bad argument so far, and bad delivery in the “no argument” comment. No, what you say is not hearsay. Sorry to burst your bubble but everyone here has an equal say.

I don’t even know much about tennis, but even to me it’s obvious that Djokovic isn’t some all dominant GOAT.

Even in this thread, it’s “becomes the undisputed GOAT. Yeah, if he became it after one event, he was never a GOAT to begin with. GOAT is all time. They dominate and everyone’s merely waiting for a couple of awards before beginning to proclaim. That’s how dominant legit GOAT candidates are. You’ll see.

[Raps in 4]

What an excellent comparison, seeing as Drexler and Wilkins were once heralded as the GOAT, never played in their primes and play a single player sport.

That makes a lot of sense!

More than not recognising when 1 player in individual sport has all the records while playing at the same time as other 2 you mentioned.
And he doubled Sampras in everything that counts in tennis, while playing against 2nd and 3rd best of all time.
There is no such thing as clear GOAT in any sport except man's tennis, and Novak is the one.
No argument there

Plenty of argument here. Djokovic had no one strong like Federer or Nadal in their prime. In a single man sport, that’s plenty of argument. And lol at the other comment when you have Gretzky and Jordan.

What are you talking about? Nadal is just one year older than Djokovic and Federer is six years older. Their peaks absolutely overlapped. You pretending that Nadal and Federer left their primes immediately after Novak started regularly beating them isn't reality. It's a fictional narrative that you invented. Early 30s Federer was still a top-3 player and not far off his peak (prime Fed also had the benefit of getting to face teenage Novak, so this argument cuts both ways). Mid-20s Nadal was literally in his physical prime. And before you hit me with the classic "Nadal's prime was 18-22" (which is idiotic to even type), I will pre-emptively counter with: he won 8 grand slams in his 30s. Nadal literally won more slams in his 30s than any player not named Djokovic, Federer, Sampras, Borg, or Laver won in their entire careers.

This argument that Nadal left his prime at 22, Federer at 29, but Djokovic's prime somehow lasted to 37 is beyond idiotic. And even if Djokovic managed to somehow play at his peak from 24 to 37 (he didn't, obviously), that's another point in favour of his greatness.

[Evenacus]

Federer was the biggest loser of the shift that happened towards the end of 2010. When the surfaces were altered to ensure longer matches for more income. Prior to 2005, most clay specialist wouldn't get past the first round in Wimbledon. When the grass was slowed down, then the likes of Nadal and Djokovic started to show up in the later stages of the tournament and especially towards the end phases of the tournament when the court looked like a plowed field, so to speak.
Even the hard surfaces were slowed down, in AO and USO to extend the duration of matches to secure more money from sponsors. That is where Nadal benefitted the most, then Djokovic and Federer was the one to lose the most. Both Djokovic and Nadal favor slower surfaces, their play stiles are better suited for such surfaces.
Djokovic is certainly one of the mentally strongest players in the history of tennis, if not the strongest one in that department. There was still some rumors of him using PEDs, like Meldonium, which Sharapova was banned for. Some half a year after meldonium became forbidden, Djokovic was out due to " elbow injury" for an extended amount of time. During that time there were rumors of him laying low due to potential meldonium usage ( non corroborated claim here, no proof, just rumors).
Nadal and PEDs are a strange story since there were always rumors he used them regularly, nothing corroborated ofc, but his tennis play style was one with heavy consequences and damage to his body, knees especially.

Sorry for the bit of longer block of text, as i followed all three in their primes and I will say that Federer always played the most beautiful brand of tennis between the three of them.

[Raps in 4]

Federer was the biggest loser of the shift that happened towards the end of 2010. When the surfaces were altered to ensure longer matches for more income. Prior to 2005, most clay specialist wouldn't get past the first round in Wimbledon. When the grass was slowed down, then the likes of Nadal and Djokovic started to show up in the later stages of the tournament and especially towards the end phases of the tournament when the court looked like a plowed field, so to speak.
Even the hard surfaces were slowed down, in AO and USO to extend the duration of matches to secure more money from sponsors. That is where Nadal benefitted the most, then Djokovic and Federer was the one to lose the most. Both Djokovic and Nadal favor slower surfaces, their play stiles are better suited for such surfaces.
Djokovic is certainly one of the mentally strongest players in the history of tennis, if not the strongest one in that department. There was still some rumors of him using PEDs, like Meldonium, which Sharapova was banned for. Some half a year after meldonium became forbidden, Djokovic was out due to " elbow injury" for an extended amount of time. During that time there were rumors of him laying low due to potential meldonium usage ( non corroborated claim here, no proof, just rumors).
Nadal and PEDs are a strange story since there were always rumors he used them regularly, nothing corroborated ofc, but his tennis play style was one with heavy consequences and damage to his body, knees especially.

Sorry for the bit of longer block of text, as i followed all three in their primes and I will say that Federer always played the most beautiful brand of tennis between the three of them.

Federer benefitted plenty from the surface homogeneity too. He was dominating 3/4 slams and going deep in the 4th during his prime (he would have multiple RG titles if it wasn't for Rafa). I agree that slow surfaces do favour Nadal and Novak, but I think it's overstated.

IMO Federer's worst enemy was his own mind. He choked away more match points than Novak and Nadal combined, and then some (he choked 24 matches, Nadal 8, and Novak 3). He was maybe the most technically skilled player ever, but he didn't have that "dog" that those other two did. Just against Novak alone in grand slams, he choked away MPs in three seperate matches.

[Rust_Cohle]

I would say Federer’s 2006 season (92-5) and McEnroe’s 1984 season (82-3) are more dominant in recent years. But in the history of the open era, nobody can top Laver’s 1969 run where he won all four slams and is the only player to win more than 100 matches in a year (106).

Novak had much much harder competition than Federer 2006. Federer 2017 is underrated though.

True, but you said the most dominant. To win almost all your matches in a year is true domination.

Fair enough, where laver and McEnroe take the cake

[Rust_Cohle]

Federer was the biggest loser of the shift that happened towards the end of 2010. When the surfaces were altered to ensure longer matches for more income. Prior to 2005, most clay specialist wouldn't get past the first round in Wimbledon. When the grass was slowed down, then the likes of Nadal and Djokovic started to show up in the later stages of the tournament and especially towards the end phases of the tournament when the court looked like a plowed field, so to speak.
Even the hard surfaces were slowed down, in AO and USO to extend the duration of matches to secure more money from sponsors. That is where Nadal benefitted the most, then Djokovic and Federer was the one to lose the most. Both Djokovic and Nadal favor slower surfaces, their play stiles are better suited for such surfaces.
Djokovic is certainly one of the mentally strongest players in the history of tennis, if not the strongest one in that department. There was still some rumors of him using PEDs, like Meldonium, which Sharapova was banned for. Some half a year after meldonium became forbidden, Djokovic was out due to " elbow injury" for an extended amount of time. During that time there were rumors of him laying low due to potential meldonium usage ( non corroborated claim here, no proof, just rumors).
Nadal and PEDs are a strange story since there were always rumors he used them regularly, nothing corroborated ofc, but his tennis play style was one with heavy consequences and damage to his body, knees especially.

Sorry for the bit of longer block of text, as i followed all three in their primes and I will say that Federer always played the most beautiful brand of tennis between the three of them.

Federer benefitted plenty from the surface homogeneity too. He was dominating 3/4 slams and going deep in the 4th during his prime (he would have multiple RG titles if it wasn't for Rafa). I agree that slow surfaces do favour Nadal and Novak, but I think it's overstated.

IMO Federer's worst enemy was his own mind. He choked away more match points than Novak and Nadal combined, and then some (he choked 24 natches, Nadal 8, and Novak 3). He was maybe the most technically skilled player ever, but he didn't have that "dog" that those other two did. Just against Novak alone in grand slams, he choked away MPs in three seperate matches.

Beautifully said. Aesthetics be damned Federer always seemed the softest of the 3.

[Rust_Cohle]

What an excellent comparison, seeing as Drexler and Wilkins were once heralded as the GOAT, never played in their primes and play a single player sport.

That makes a lot of sense!

More than not recognising when 1 player in individual sport has all the records while playing at the same time as other 2 you mentioned.
And he doubled Sampras in everything that counts in tennis, while playing against 2nd and 3rd best of all time.
There is no such thing as clear GOAT in any sport except man's tennis, and Novak is the one.
No argument there

Plenty of argument here. Djokovic had no one strong like Federer or Nadal in their prime. In a single man sport, that’s plenty of argument. And lol at the other comment when you have Ruth, Pele, Gretzky and Jordan. But you’re just that much of a fanboy! Very bad argument so far, and bad delivery in the “no argument” comment. No, what you say is not hearsay. Sorry to burst your bubble but everyone here has an equal say.

I don’t even know much about tennis, but even to me it’s obvious that Djokovic isn’t some all dominant GOAT.

Even in this thread, it’s “becomes the undisputed GOAT. Yeah, if he became it after one event, he was never a GOAT to begin with. GOAT is all time. They dominate and everyone’s merely waiting for a couple of awards before beginning to proclaim. That’s how dominant legit GOAT candidates are. You’ll see.

I honestly like you Bled, but there is a lot wrong with your takes in here my friend

[Alatan]

What an excellent comparison, seeing as Drexler and Wilkins were once heralded as the GOAT, never played in their primes and play a single player sport.

That makes a lot of sense!

More than not recognising when 1 player in individual sport has all the records while playing at the same time as other 2 you mentioned.
And he doubled Sampras in everything that counts in tennis, while playing against 2nd and 3rd best of all time.
There is no such thing as clear GOAT in any sport except man's tennis, and Novak is the one.
No argument there

Plenty of argument here. Djokovic had no one strong like Federer or Nadal in their prime. In a single man sport, that’s plenty of argument. And lol at the other comment when you have Ruth, Pele, Gretzky and Jordan. But you’re just that much of a fanboy! Very bad argument so far, and bad delivery in the “no argument” comment. No, what you say is not hearsay. Sorry to burst your bubble but everyone here has an equal say.

I don’t even know much about tennis, but even to me it’s obvious that Djokovic isn’t some all dominant GOAT.

Even in this thread, it’s “becomes the undisputed GOAT. Yeah, if he became it after one event, he was never a GOAT to begin with. GOAT is all time. They dominate and everyone’s merely waiting for a couple of awards before beginning to proclaim. That’s how dominant legit GOAT candidates are. You’ll see.

He literally played against Federer and Nadal through his whole career...

Are you really this... special... or are you trolling?

[Raps in 4]

:crazy:

More than not recognising when 1 player in individual sport has all the records while playing at the same time as other 2 you mentioned.
And he doubled Sampras in everything that counts in tennis, while playing against 2nd and 3rd best of all time.
There is no such thing as clear GOAT in any sport except man's tennis, and Novak is the one.
No argument there

Plenty of argument here. Djokovic had no one strong like Federer or Nadal in their prime. In a single man sport, that’s plenty of argument. And lol at the other comment when you have Ruth, Pele, Gretzky and Jordan. But you’re just that much of a fanboy! Very bad argument so far, and bad delivery in the “no argument” comment. No, what you say is not hearsay. Sorry to burst your bubble but everyone here has an equal say.

I don’t even know much about tennis, but even to me it’s obvious that Djokovic isn’t some all dominant GOAT.

Even in this thread, it’s “becomes the undisputed GOAT. Yeah, if he became it after one event, he was never a GOAT to begin with. GOAT is all time. They dominate and everyone’s merely waiting for a couple of awards before beginning to proclaim. That’s how dominant legit GOAT candidates are. You’ll see.

He literally played against Federer and Nadal through his whole career...

Are you really this... special... or are you trolling?

It's a recurring point in this debate, and it's beyond idiotic. It assumes that Nadal's prime was 18-22, Fed's prime was 23-29, and Novak's prime was 24-37 and that he went unchallenged for 13 years. Apparently Federer turned into Michael Kosta on his 30th birthday while Nadal switched to playing wheelchair tennis when he turned 23.

[AleksandarN]

Federer was the biggest loser of the shift that happened towards the end of 2010. When the surfaces were altered to ensure longer matches for more income. Prior to 2005, most clay specialist wouldn't get past the first round in Wimbledon. When the grass was slowed down, then the likes of Nadal and Djokovic started to show up in the later stages of the tournament and especially towards the end phases of the tournament when the court looked like a plowed field, so to speak.
Even the hard surfaces were slowed down, in AO and USO to extend the duration of matches to secure more money from sponsors. That is where Nadal benefitted the most, then Djokovic and Federer was the one to lose the most. Both Djokovic and Nadal favor slower surfaces, their play stiles are better suited for such surfaces.
Djokovic is certainly one of the mentally strongest players in the history of tennis, if not the strongest one in that department. There was still some rumors of him using PEDs, like Meldonium, which Sharapova was banned for. Some half a year after meldonium became forbidden, Djokovic was out due to " elbow injury" for an extended amount of time. During that time there were rumors of him laying low due to potential meldonium usage ( non corroborated claim here, no proof, just rumors).
Nadal and PEDs are a strange story since there were always rumors he used them regularly, nothing corroborated ofc, but his tennis play style was one with heavy consequences and damage to his body, knees especially.

Sorry for the bit of longer block of text, as i followed all three in their primes and I will say that Federer always played the most beautiful brand of tennis between the three of them.

That’s false because he still gets tested if he is injured or not. Stop with this unfounded PED narrative

[BelgradeNugget]

What an excellent comparison, seeing as Drexler and Wilkins were once heralded as the GOAT, never played in their primes and play a single player sport.

That makes a lot of sense!

More than not recognising when 1 player in individual sport has all the records while playing at the same time as other 2 you mentioned.
And he doubled Sampras in everything that counts in tennis, while playing against 2nd and 3rd best of all time.
There is no such thing as clear GOAT in any sport except man's tennis, and Novak is the one.
No argument there

Plenty of argument here. Djokovic had no one strong like Federer or Nadal in their prime. In a single man sport, that’s plenty of argument. And lol at the other comment when you have Ruth, Pele, Gretzky and Jordan. But you’re just that much of a fanboy! Very bad argument so far, and bad delivery in the “no argument” comment. No, what you say is not hearsay. Sorry to burst your bubble but everyone here has an equal say.

I don’t even know much about tennis, but even to me it’s obvious that Djokovic isn’t some all dominant GOAT.

Even in this thread, it’s “becomes the undisputed GOAT. Yeah, if he became it after one event, he was never a GOAT to begin with. GOAT is all time. They dominate and everyone’s merely waiting for a couple of awards before beginning to proclaim. That’s how dominant legit GOAT candidates are. You’ll see.

This is all you got right here.

I don’t even know much about tennis.

So let's see how things stand in basketball

1. Best stats ever - Wilt Chamberlain
2. Most championship as the best player on a team - Bill Rusell

But people are arguing about Jordan or LeBron. Now in team sport quality of teammates is important. And quality of competittion/era is also important.

In tennis here are biggest achivements, and leader in those stats

1. Number of weaks at the No 1 - Djokovic
2. Number of year end No 1 - Djokovic
3. Number of Grend Slams won - Djokovic
4. Number of Year end tournament trophys - Djokovic
5. Nubber of ATP 1000 torunaments won - Djokovic
6. The most ATP points in a week ever (highest peak) - Djokovic

He did it in the hardest era of men's tennis competing with 2 undesputed 2nd and 3rd best players ever

Federer - 2nd ever in weaks at the No 1, and 3rd in Number of Grend Slams won
Nadal - 2nd ever in Grend Slams won, and undisputed GOAT of clay courts

Novak first become 1st in atp points when Federer was 29yo in his prime and Nadal was 25, by taking the first place on atp list from Federer.
He is having better h2h score against both of them. Complited non calendar year grand-slam non of them achived.

This thread started when he won Olympich gold, only thing missing in his resume.

So to conclude, he is UNDESPUTED GOAT, and you don't know much about tennis.
BTW don't call me a fanboy, call me nice and educated poster willing to spend his time to teach you something
You're welcome

[durden_tyler]

Great player but anti-vaxxer so we'll remember him that way. LOL

[Mavrelous]

I get not liking the guy, I personally like him a lot, I don't get how you can argue against him being the GOAT, there really aren't many clear cut cases in sports as his case...