Windhorst: Raptors making noise around the league looking for a “big fish” // Giannis & Toronto "Mutual Interest"/KD too

[JB7]

Too many people were thinking we had the best possible deals and thinking we could get Giannis while keeping Scottie, lunacy. If we are getting Giannis, we are gutting the team. Maybe Masai pulls off some magical trade, but it's pretty unlikely.

So if it is OG/Bridges + KAT, the Bucks aren't building a team around that as their core, so the question is, what can they turn those players into, in terms of future assets?

That is the appeal of a Raps deal (Barnes, Dick, Ochai, 9th pick, and a future FRP and some swaps). The youth and future growth is built into the deal.

The reality is, the Knicks don't have a lot to offer. Can they offer any picks at all? Everything they offer takes away from their team, which is already limited.

That is absolutely what they're doing if they make that trade. They don't have their picks, so no use losing games. Just sign some role players around them and see what happens in a weak east.

This is exactly how we got Kawhi. Outside of a package of young players the Celtics didn't want to give up, the Spurs didn't want to tank. So they got DeMar in exchange, who is right around the same age as KAT is now.

Spurs did not have as much leverage with Kawhi, as he had a year left on his deal, and it was known he wanted to go to LA (Lakers weren't offering enough, knowing they could try and sign him a year later). So it became about Pop punishing Kawhi, and sending him as far from LA as possible.

I think the Bucks will want that key young piece they can build around in any Giannis deal - to give the fans hope. So Barnes, Mobley, Franz or Amen.

[sidsid]

Now that I've made the Kawhi/DeMar comparisons, it is very much this scenario for the Knicks.

KAT is a poor playoff player who has shown his warts multiple times in that arena. He has far more value as an overrated trade piece for his floor, and his destiny is to be in a trade to make a contender in the best possible scenario.

[JB7]

Now that I've made the Kawhi/DeMar comparisons, it is very much this scenario for the Knicks.

KAT is a poor playoff player who has shown his warts multiple times in that arena. He has far more value as an overrated trade piece for his floor, and his destiny is to be in a trade to make a contender in the best possible scenario.

Only way Giannis ends up on Knicks, is if he is forcing his way there. Because he is screwing the Bucks then.

[Scase]

So if it is OG/Bridges + KAT, the Bucks aren't building a team around that as their core, so the question is, what can they turn those players into, in terms of future assets?

That is the appeal of a Raps deal (Barnes, Dick, Ochai, 9th pick, and a future FRP and some swaps). The youth and future growth is built into the deal.

The reality is, the Knicks don't have a lot to offer. Can they offer any picks at all? Everything they offer takes away from their team, which is already limited.

If the bucks bring back a KAT + whatever, they aren't rebuilding, they are likely just going to tread water and try and put out a playoff level team for a few years until they can tank when they have picks again. We've seen it enough times, if the team doesn't have/cant get back their picks, you get win now players and just tread water until you can tank.

That still keeps them somewhat competitive and they make gate revenue, the problem with our deal is that they will be a bad team, so they get the youth, but none of it is earth shattering and has a rather low ceiling, AND they don't have their picks. The whole purpose of youth is to grow them while being bad and adding to that core, but if you don't have your picks, you're just bad and young for no reason. At least with the Knicks trade they'd still have people paying to come see the games.

That is 5 years they need to tread water then. Way too long.

I would take Barnes over anything the Knicks can offer, outside of Brunson. And even then, if I'm the Bucks and looking to rebuild, I probably take Barnes over Brunson.

It's not ideal for sure, but 5 years of solid gate revenue and a mid team, is better than a few years of bad revenue and a mid team. Who knows maybe they only do it for a couple years and then pivot and find a way to get those last couple picks back.

But it is a business, and if you don't have the ability to truly reset, then you gotta go the financial security route. Don't get me wrong, I don't think either route is truly a good option for them, but it's the reality of the situation. Without getting their picks back, they have zero incentive to go young and be bad. Cause a team with Scottie/GD/Ochai/9th is not breaking 35 wins, if dame is healthy sure, but it's still not going anywhere.

[CoinTossRoss31]

I think Barnes is a better offer than KAT for a rebuilding team.

If Barnes is the price I would hope it would be something like Barnes + Dick + 2026 first + 2027 swap + 2028 first + 2029 swap option

[sidsid]

So if it is OG/Bridges + KAT, the Bucks aren't building a team around that as their core, so the question is, what can they turn those players into, in terms of future assets?

That is the appeal of a Raps deal (Barnes, Dick, Ochai, 9th pick, and a future FRP and some swaps). The youth and future growth is built into the deal.

The reality is, the Knicks don't have a lot to offer. Can they offer any picks at all? Everything they offer takes away from their team, which is already limited.

That is absolutely what they're doing if they make that trade. They don't have their picks, so no use losing games. Just sign some role players around them and see what happens in a weak east.

This is exactly how we got Kawhi. Outside of a package of young players the Celtics didn't want to give up, the Spurs didn't want to tank. So they got DeMar in exchange, who is right around the same age as KAT is now.

Spurs did not have as much leverage with Kawhi, as he had a year left on his deal, and it was known he wanted to go to LA (Lakers weren't offering enough, knowing they could try and sign him a year later). So it became about Pop punishing Kawhi, and sending him as far from LA as possible.

I think the Bucks will want that key young piece they can build around in any Giannis deal - to give the fans hope. So Barnes, Mobley, Franz or Amen.

The Spurs also still controled their picks, which is an incentive the Bucks are lacking in the non-KAT/DeMar scenarios.

They can absolutely still want youth instead (if it's actually offered, which was the problem with the Celtics pieces the Spurs wanted, and likely an issue for all the above, too), but if they're trading for KAT/Bridges, it's because they want him to win games.

[JB7]

If the bucks bring back a KAT + whatever, they aren't rebuilding, they are likely just going to tread water and try and put out a playoff level team for a few years until they can tank when they have picks again. We've seen it enough times, if the team doesn't have/cant get back their picks, you get win now players and just tread water until you can tank.

That still keeps them somewhat competitive and they make gate revenue, the problem with our deal is that they will be a bad team, so they get the youth, but none of it is earth shattering and has a rather low ceiling, AND they don't have their picks. The whole purpose of youth is to grow them while being bad and adding to that core, but if you don't have your picks, you're just bad and young for no reason. At least with the Knicks trade they'd still have people paying to come see the games.

That is 5 years they need to tread water then. Way too long.

I would take Barnes over anything the Knicks can offer, outside of Brunson. And even then, if I'm the Bucks and looking to rebuild, I probably take Barnes over Brunson.

It's not ideal for sure, but 5 years of solid gate revenue and a mid team, is better than a few years of bad revenue and a mid team. Who knows maybe they only do it for a couple years and then pivot and find a way to get those last couple picks back.

But it is a business, and if you don't have the ability to truly reset, then you gotta go the financial security route. Don't get me wrong, I don't think either route is truly a good option for them, but it's the reality of the situation. Without getting their picks back, they have zero incentive to go young and be bad. Cause a team with Scottie/GD/Ochai/9th is not breaking 35 wins, if dame is healthy sure, but it's still not going anywhere.

I don't know that a KAT led team is going to maintain their gate revenue. It is a weak East, but a KAT led team is still going nowhere. So what they are actually looking at is an over 7 year rebuild. 5 years waiting for their picks, and then hoping those picks turn into something and start to develop. I don't know if the fans will have that kind of patience.

A Scottie/GD/Ochai/9th - could be Maluach or Queen, might not be winning more than 35 games next season, but at least there is plenty of upward potential both next season and the seasons after it. They are not waiting 5 years, just to start the reset.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Read on Twitter

Who could Knicks offer?

I'm thinking OG or Mikal + KAT

For those saying “the Bucks can’t tank”, I would then argue that trying for a Bridges or OG + KAT trade keeps them more competitive than anything we can offer.

Sorry, I know we are trying to speak it into existence by dismissing everyone else's alleged offer lol.

This is not a real source, Gary's link to his website is a dead link, he only has 9000 k followers, and is not new York based.

I love the disrespect from this board towards reports from writers who have been close to the team for decades, and then some guy Gary with a podcast tweets about Giannis to the Knicks, it's treated like it's scripture.

[tecumseh18]

I think Barnes is a better offer than KAT for a rebuilding team.

If Barnes is the price I would hope it would be something like Barnes + Dick + 2026 first + 2027 swap + 2028 first + 2029 swap option

So, Raps keep #9?

[JB7]

That is absolutely what they're doing if they make that trade. They don't have their picks, so no use losing games. Just sign some role players around them and see what happens in a weak east.

This is exactly how we got Kawhi. Outside of a package of young players the Celtics didn't want to give up, the Spurs didn't want to tank. So they got DeMar in exchange, who is right around the same age as KAT is now.

Spurs did not have as much leverage with Kawhi, as he had a year left on his deal, and it was known he wanted to go to LA (Lakers weren't offering enough, knowing they could try and sign him a year later). So it became about Pop punishing Kawhi, and sending him as far from LA as possible.

I think the Bucks will want that key young piece they can build around in any Giannis deal - to give the fans hope. So Barnes, Mobley, Franz or Amen.

The Spurs also still controled their picks, which is an incentive the Bucks are lacking in the non-KAT/DeMar scenarios.

They can absolutely still want youth instead (if it's actually offered, which was the problem with the Celtics pieces the Spurs wanted, and likely an issue for all the above, too), but if they're trading for KAT/Bridges, it's because they want him to win games.

Yes, the Spurs controlled their picks, but POP was more interested in adding to his win totals. The reason he was fine taking DD back.

If they are trading with the Knicks, it is because Giannis has demanded he be traded there.

[Scase]

That is 5 years they need to tread water then. Way too long.

I would take Barnes over anything the Knicks can offer, outside of Brunson. And even then, if I'm the Bucks and looking to rebuild, I probably take Barnes over Brunson.

It's not ideal for sure, but 5 years of solid gate revenue and a mid team, is better than a few years of bad revenue and a mid team. Who knows maybe they only do it for a couple years and then pivot and find a way to get those last couple picks back.

But it is a business, and if you don't have the ability to truly reset, then you gotta go the financial security route. Don't get me wrong, I don't think either route is truly a good option for them, but it's the reality of the situation. Without getting their picks back, they have zero incentive to go young and be bad. Cause a team with Scottie/GD/Ochai/9th is not breaking 35 wins, if dame is healthy sure, but it's still not going anywhere.

I don't know that a KAT led team is going to maintain their gate revenue. It is a weak East, but a KAT led team is still going nowhere. So what they are actually looking at is an over 7 year rebuild. 5 years waiting for their picks, and then hoping those picks turn into something and start to develop. I don't know if the fans will have that kind of patience.

A Scottie/GD/Ochai/9th - could be Maluach or Queen, might not be winning more than 35 games next season, but at least there is plenty of upward potential both next season and the seasons after it. They are not waiting 5 years, just to start the reset.

For sure, I think both options are pretty mid, they kinda painted themselves into a corner. That said, I don't think Scottie is going to exceed a KAT level player anymore, Ochai is good for what he is, but not a needle mover. GD is the unknown quantity there, but I still think his ceiling is an AS level player.

Neither team results in a particularly good outcome, but a KAT led team in the east is very likely a playoff team, especially if Dame plays, and if they get OG instead of Bridges then you definitely have a playoff team. OG trade would probably mean they get the knicks to take on someone like Kuz, so it would give them some freedom. But yeah, pretty crappy no matter what lol.

[MiamiSPX]

Read on Twitter

Who could Knicks offer?

I'm thinking OG or Mikal + KAT

For those saying “the Bucks can’t tank”, I would then argue that trying for a Bridges or OG + KAT trade keeps them more competitive than anything we can offer.

Sorry, I know we are trying to speak it into existence by dismissing everyone else's alleged offer lol.

This is not a real source, Gary's link to his website is a dead link, he only has 9000 k followers, and is not new York based.

I love the disrespect from this board towards reports from writers who have been close to the team for decades, and then some guy Gary with a podcast tweets about Giannis to the Knicks, it's treated like it's scripture.

Nobody said it was a real source. I am pointing out that there are packages out there better than ours IF the Bucks don't want to be bad, like others keep alluding to. But i mean, from everything you guys are saying, we are the only ones that will offer up a lot for a top 3 player, AND he is going to want to be in Toronto despite Masai's contract status. I'm pretty sure we are all safe to go ahead and order the jersey....

[JB7]

It's not ideal for sure, but 5 years of solid gate revenue and a mid team, is better than a few years of bad revenue and a mid team. Who knows maybe they only do it for a couple years and then pivot and find a way to get those last couple picks back.

But it is a business, and if you don't have the ability to truly reset, then you gotta go the financial security route. Don't get me wrong, I don't think either route is truly a good option for them, but it's the reality of the situation. Without getting their picks back, they have zero incentive to go young and be bad. Cause a team with Scottie/GD/Ochai/9th is not breaking 35 wins, if dame is healthy sure, but it's still not going anywhere.

I don't know that a KAT led team is going to maintain their gate revenue. It is a weak East, but a KAT led team is still going nowhere. So what they are actually looking at is an over 7 year rebuild. 5 years waiting for their picks, and then hoping those picks turn into something and start to develop. I don't know if the fans will have that kind of patience.

A Scottie/GD/Ochai/9th - could be Maluach or Queen, might not be winning more than 35 games next season, but at least there is plenty of upward potential both next season and the seasons after it. They are not waiting 5 years, just to start the reset.

For sure, I think both options are pretty mid, they kinda painted themselves into a corner. That said, I don't think Scottie is going to exceed a KAT level player anymore, Ochai is good for what he is, but not a needle mover. GD is the unknown quantity there, but I still think his ceiling is an AS level player.

Neither team results in a particularly good outcome, but a KAT led team in the east is very likely a playoff team, especially if Dame plays, and if they get OG instead of Bridges then you definitely have a playoff team. OG trade would probably mean they get the knicks to take on someone like Kuz, so it would give them some freedom. But yeah, pretty crappy no matter what lol.

Scottie still has a lot of potential to exceed a KAT level type player. Scottie is already a better defensive player, and has more growth potential there. And on O, while he'll never be the shooter KAT is, he can do everything else better, and still grow his game.

I think any GM is taking Scottie over KAT, not even factoring in their ages.

If Ochai profiles out to be a good 3&D player, that is the perfect fit next to Gradey. Gradey has offensive upside, and can clearly be better on D than he has been. And don't forgot, the 9th pick can get them their next starting C in Maluach or Queen. Or even their next starting PG in Jakucionis, if the C's are not available. Bucks could rebuild 4/5ths of their starting lineup in one deal.

[HangTime]

Would you rather
1) gut the team for Giannis
2) smaller offer for durant
3) keep developing

I hope the Giannis talk is just that, for the fans that tuned out last season.

[Scase]

I don't know that a KAT led team is going to maintain their gate revenue. It is a weak East, but a KAT led team is still going nowhere. So what they are actually looking at is an over 7 year rebuild. 5 years waiting for their picks, and then hoping those picks turn into something and start to develop. I don't know if the fans will have that kind of patience.

A Scottie/GD/Ochai/9th - could be Maluach or Queen, might not be winning more than 35 games next season, but at least there is plenty of upward potential both next season and the seasons after it. They are not waiting 5 years, just to start the reset.

For sure, I think both options are pretty mid, they kinda painted themselves into a corner. That said, I don't think Scottie is going to exceed a KAT level player anymore, Ochai is good for what he is, but not a needle mover. GD is the unknown quantity there, but I still think his ceiling is an AS level player.

Neither team results in a particularly good outcome, but a KAT led team in the east is very likely a playoff team, especially if Dame plays, and if they get OG instead of Bridges then you definitely have a playoff team. OG trade would probably mean they get the knicks to take on someone like Kuz, so it would give them some freedom. But yeah, pretty crappy no matter what lol.

Scottie still has a lot of potential to exceed a KAT level type player. Scottie is already a better defensive player, and has more growth potential there. And on O, while he'll never be the shooter KAT is, he can do everything else better, and still grow his game.

I think any GM is taking Scottie over KAT, not even factoring in their ages.

If Ochai profiles out to be a good 3&D player, that is the perfect fit next to Gradey. Gradey has offensive upside, and can clearly be better on D than he has been. And don't forgot, the 9th pick can get them their next starting C in Maluach or Queen. Or even their next starting PG in Jakucionis, if the C's are not available. Bucks could rebuild 4/5ths of their starting lineup in one deal.

That's assuming they all take large leaps, the same can be said of us having them though. I just don't think that is a thing, and the 9th pick could also be a bad pick by them and turn out to be nothing special. The KAT route gives them something tangible, if the Raps package players dont develop much more, or just dont have those as actual ceilings, now they have a bad team AND no picks.

It's a gamble both ways, I don't think either one is particularly better than the other.

[sidsid]

Spurs did not have as much leverage with Kawhi, as he had a year left on his deal, and it was known he wanted to go to LA (Lakers weren't offering enough, knowing they could try and sign him a year later). So it became about Pop punishing Kawhi, and sending him as far from LA as possible.

I think the Bucks will want that key young piece they can build around in any Giannis deal - to give the fans hope. So Barnes, Mobley, Franz or Amen.

The Spurs also still controled their picks, which is an incentive the Bucks are lacking in the non-KAT/DeMar scenarios.

They can absolutely still want youth instead (if it's actually offered, which was the problem with the Celtics pieces the Spurs wanted, and likely an issue for all the above, too), but if they're trading for KAT/Bridges, it's because they want him to win games.

Yes, the Spurs controlled their picks, but POP was more interested in adding to his win totals. The reason he was fine taking DD back.

If they are trading with the Knicks, it is because Giannis has demanded he be traded there.

They should take any offer that gets them a young star potential player and some picks over KAT/Bridges. Dealing Kawhi for DeMar never made any sense then, and trading for KAT now with the team they have doesn't either.

But he's made it to the conference finals TWICE!!?!?! (irrelevant, as the team around him made it happen, the same as DeMar back in the day). It only matters what that FO thinks of him, and of course, Giannis' list of teams he'd like to go to.

[Clutch0z24]

Do people here actually believe if Bucks get Barnes/Dick/Ochai/9th Pick + 1 or 2 picks is appealing enough?....I mean look at how bad our Raptors team has been with Barnes/Dick/Ochai + alot more actual NBA players than the Bucks will have with that core....We were a lottery team with that core for many years....Unless you think that 9th pick can get you another star level player besides Barnes but thats a question mark...

The reason that package would be enticing to the Bucks would be the pick package to go along with the young guys because most likely with a core of Barnes/Dick/Ochai/9th pick team they are likely to be a Lotto team for a while with no draft picks to show for.....Sounds like a tough sell if im running the Bucks...

We would prolly have to give up more draft picks if we want to beat out teams if teams start throwing out their best players in packages along with 2-3 elite level players....We can all sit here and say "Bucks won't want them players and would want to go young" Well that would make sense if they could tank the following years to keep building on the young guys they aquire...But without draft picks going young is pretty pointless....

Our pick package along with our young players is the reason we are even enticing to trade with not one or the other.

[Duffman100]

Do people here actually believe if Bucks get Barnes/Dick/Ochai/9th Pick + 1 or 2 picks is appealing enough?....I mean look at how bad our Raptors team has been with Barnes/Dick/Ochai + alot more actual NBA players than the Bucks will have with that core....We were a lottery team with that core for many years....Unless you think that 9th pick can get you another star level player besides Barnes but thats a question mark...

The reason that package would be enticing to the Bucks would be the pick package to go along with the young guys because most likely with a core of Barnes/Dick/Ochai/9th pick team they are likely to be a Lotto team for a while with no draft picks to show for.....Sounds like a tough sell if im running the Bucks...

We would prolly have to give up more draft picks if we want to beat out teams if teams start throwing out their best players in packages along with 2-3 elite level players....We can all sit here and say "Bucks won't want them players and would want to go young" Well that would make sense if they could tank the following years to keep building on the young guys they aquire...But without draft picks going young is pretty pointless....

Our pick package along with our young players is the reason we are even enticing to trade with not one or the other.

I think it only really works if Giannis says he'll here and only here.

[sidsid]

I doubt MIL would have any serious interest in Bridges. Bridges only has a year on left on his deal and he would likely leave when his contract is up and his value as a rental wouldn't be a lot.

The smallish contract he has works well for apron constrained teams that need to make impactful moves potentially adding multiple players without much salary flexibility to do so. He's a good reroute in a 3 teamer.

The example trade I was kicking around was sending him to the Sixers along with Portis and Pat for PG and picks and/or maybe McCain before finalizing the Knicks trade.

[Clutch0z24]

Do people here actually believe if Bucks get Barnes/Dick/Ochai/9th Pick + 1 or 2 picks is appealing enough?....I mean look at how bad our Raptors team has been with Barnes/Dick/Ochai + alot more actual NBA players than the Bucks will have with that core....We were a lottery team with that core for many years....Unless you think that 9th pick can get you another star level player besides Barnes but thats a question mark...

The reason that package would be enticing to the Bucks would be the pick package to go along with the young guys because most likely with a core of Barnes/Dick/Ochai/9th pick team they are likely to be a Lotto team for a while with no draft picks to show for.....Sounds like a tough sell if im running the Bucks...

We would prolly have to give up more draft picks if we want to beat out teams if teams start throwing out their best players in packages along with 2-3 elite level players....We can all sit here and say "Bucks won't want them players and would want to go young" Well that would make sense if they could tank the following years to keep building on the young guys they aquire...But without draft picks going young is pretty pointless....

Our pick package along with our young players is the reason we are even enticing to trade with not one or the other.

I think it only really works if Giannis says he'll here and only here.

Yep i think even if we are on the list of teams Giannis asks to go too we have a chance....But i do actually believe it will cost more than what alot of posters here think it will cost.....Because other teams may start offering up their best player and a few teams in the East have better players than Barnes if Bucks decide to go for the best player package route....With Barnes i think the draft pick package would be the only thing the Bucks would be interested in....I don't think Bucks think high on Dick/Ochai....I think Barnes/9th and future picks are what Bucks will have most interest in...

If i put myself as the Bucks GM and i wanted to do buisness with the Raptors i would want Barnes/9th + 3 FRP 1 Swap the other salary fillers id let Raptors choose the add ons...Because idk if Dick/Ochai even have much value tbh...