Windhorst: Raptors making noise around the league looking for a “big fish” // Giannis & Toronto "Mutual Interest"/KD too

[WuTang_CMB]

Read on Twitter

definitely the first guy i am calling if I am Giannis or the Bucks

I would wait till a more legit source comes out with the news....Things don't heat up till July so i doubt anyone really knows what Giannis will do including Giannis himself...I think all these reports are speculation.

Stein/fischer as of yesterday said teams are losing confidence he will ask out. Nothing confirmed yet. This is a whatever report the guy is jumping on picking a side 50/50 shot. Lets remember Giannis went to Shams to report hes reviewing his position on what he wants to do. Red flag imo for bucks fans. I expect Shams to follow up closer to draft.

[ItsDanger]

These people just use the fans for engagement harvesting. I try to avoid these stories. They think integrity is a type of pasta.

[grant101]

We can’t have a rookie starting is Poeltl is out and have any chance of winning. If we do this, I’d be looking into how poaching Gafford (for Ochai, maybe?) or at signing Brook Lopez.

Also, if Poeltl is out, it’s Grady or a pick, not both. In fact, I’d try to see if they bite at Mogbo instead (still really high on Grady).

Good idea

Do they really need AD Gafford Lively and PJ washington?

Exactly. I’m guessing AD plays minutes at center when Lively is out. Gafford is a luxury for them, and they could really use someone like Ochai. Gafford would be a serviceable stop gap center, that can step back into a reserve role when we figure out the long term solution. Plus, he gives us a lob threat that we haven’t had in a long time

[TimeForChange]

Suns owner is broke?

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1l5q485/zach_harper_there_have_been_whispers_and_rumors/

[YogurtProducer]

I would be worried if Masai had ever given up too much before, and he never has, so this is based on nothing. In fact, he has been criticized for overvaluing his own assets in the past, but he has generally been right including his stance on guys like Siakam and OG. You cheer for a team who's decision-maker seems to be able to evaluate talent at an elite level.

Yeah even the poeltl trade. The value of was totally fine just bad timing for the trade.

Personally I think we would have preferred the pick in both seasons. It's not that Poeltl isn't valuable, but we gave up pretty much the maximum value available in that trade. The weak protections were a sign that he was leveraged. He didn't trade Poeltl to then have to rip down the team and win 30 games a year the next two seasons. It all just happened as a result of bad planning.

I mean yeah we gave up maximum value because we had a nightmare season that no one thought we would when we made that trade.

And even then, with everything going wrong, it is at worst a neutral deal. If the team hasn’t imploded it would’ve been a clear Toronto win.

[YogurtProducer]

Some bad masai narratives as usual on here. Guy has ATL chasing him and will have half the league looking to hire him if he isn’t retained.

Masai is being opportunistic as he should be with the state of the team, east and league

He has made some mistakes, but as the days and months pass, you can see why he made some of the decisions he made. I don't expect anyone to be perfect lol

Poeltl
Siakam
Barnes
OG
FVV

Where does that team sit today? It's kind of obvious why he made that trade for Poeltl and a first rounder to try to make that team work imo wasn't a terrible idea. The Thad Young trade was a bad trade.

But man, he wins a lot of trades and knows how to be creative while a major aspects of building a team is basically not possible in Toronto (free agency). Good luck finding someone better than him. Last season was the first season of a rebuild. The bench looks better. To bring up 30 wins as if that wasn't expected is funny.

The Thad young trade is bad if you ignore we also retained Boucher cause of it really.

The fact a trade in which we traded a late 1st for an early 2nd is what this board is up in arms about is just further proof how great he’s been.

[YogurtProducer]

Would Giannis package really be that risky?....I mean we obviously get the best player in the deal by a mile.....Giving up Barnes for Giannis is basically a wash....Because i don't think Barnes/Giannis look good on the court anyways....Outside of Barnes its prolly Dick/Ochai to match salaries....Out of them 3 players which player are you really worried about giving up for Giannis?....Now if its RJ as well im prolly taking off Dick in the deal...So either way im keeping one of the young SGs...

Draft pick wise which will be the biggest risk in the deal....You give up the 9th....Chances that 9th pick becomes an all star level player? ....Might be a good 35%....Chances are its just another role player....As for future picks all the picks if Giannis is on the team are prolly 20-30th area in terms of value....Can you really add anything valuable in that range in the draft? Sure but not likely....We will still have 2nd round picks and undrafted players to choose from which Masai shows a good track record of getting gems here and there....

With Giannis you are a title contender for a long time...Paired with IQ/Yak/RJ or Dick/Ingram Young bench Walter/Shead/Mogbo/Chomche/Battle...
I like the makeup of that team ....Can count on a few good Vets to come here as well in FA or Buy outs on the cheap to fill holes in the team....

Anyone saying that would be Bucks 2.0 ^ Are lying to themselves...

Clarifying that no, Giannis is not risky in terms of expected output (other than the thought that his output is heavily linked to his athleticism, which tends to start waning in your early 30s). That's why he's going to cost a ton. The Bucks will get full value.

The value plays on our end are Durant (too old), and the injured goods (Zion, etc.).

I don't think his game will go down hill in a year or two....Giannis will impact the game till hes 35 at least....He takes care of his body......I would not be too concerned about that....Giannis will always be better than Scottie even as he ages.....I think the cost for Giannis will be Barnes/Dick/Ochai #9, and anywhere from 2-4 FRPs with swaps in that 2-4 picks ...Which if its 2-3 id be fine giving up....

You won't get a true number 1 option with any of the players/draft picks involved ^ or Unlikley too.....Giannis raises the title odds by alot for us where i think none of the players we have are good enough to compete for titles....

And if you are trying to save assets to try and get another "Big fish" Well no player will be available anytime soon on Giannis level for a very long time.

Yeah what season do you realistically think Scottie surpasses Giannis?

Maybe like 2030?

[tsherkin]

He has made some mistakes, but as the days and months pass, you can see why he made some of the decisions he made. I don't expect anyone to be perfect lol

This is worth repeating.

No GM is perfect. Even the best of them are subject to the vagaries of chance, or make what felt like a good move which didn't pan out, or they get screwed with injury luck or something. Masai does good things for us on the whole. He's a sight better than, say, Rob Babcock. I generally don't worry that we're going to miss so hard in the draft we'll be chanting HOFFA, HOFFA, HOFFA for our pick, you know what I mean? He's found some diamonds later in the draft and has helped us field some pretty good teams. Granted, he was able to build on some kind of foundation from the Colangelo years, but it's been a minute and we were pretty good for a pretty extended stretch.

I hope we find a way to re-sign him.

Also, he will be permanently endeared to me for Buck Frooklyn, lmao.

[YogurtProducer]

Another thing people overlook is KD being on our team would be great for our young guys. They get to learn how one of the most skilled forwards of all time trains and prepares everyday. Scottie, Gradey, Jakobe (whoever is left after the trade) will benefit greatly.

That crap is so overrated, everyone is their own person. Did having Kawhi help Siakam/OG/Fred when they were on their own on the raptors? Did it help Barnes having Siakam/OG/Fred?

You get players for what they'll produce on the first and foremost, the rest is secondary by far.

I don’t know if bringing up Siakam/OG/FVV who had some of the best development in the league is the best argument against having good vets

[YogurtProducer]

That crap is so overrated, everyone is their own person. Did having Kawhi help Siakam/OG/Fred when they were on their own on the raptors? Did it help Barnes having Siakam/OG/Fred?

You get players for what they'll produce on the first and foremost, the rest is secondary by far.

Um Pascal has literally quotes Kawhi a couple of times this playoff run (not to high, not to low), and his now famous pre season speech to the team had Kawhi all over it.

Fred is well know for his leadership skills and winning ways, and along with Ime turned that team around.

Are you being serious, or did you forget to green font?

I'm speaking about on court production and the results spoke for themselves. They all went onto completely other teams where they were better slotted in the pecking order to help. "Kawhi's leadership" did crap all for the Raptors is my point.

That team post-Kawhi was a championship contender.

[PushDaRock]

Ya Garland is on a whole different level than IQ. He'd be a difference maker if we could get the Cavs to bite on IQ + Dick + filler.

Is he really on that much different of a level?

Career PER 36 numbers

Garland 20.4 ppg 7.3 apg 2.9 rpg 1.3 spg on 56.8 TS%
IQ 19.7 ppg 5.2 apg 4.6 rpg 1.0 spg on 56.6 TS%

The difference is Garland has had a lot more opportunity as a day one starter. IQ only became a full time starter last season after coming here and we obviously know about the injuries this season that derailed his season.

Injuries are part of IQs problems and should be held against him so youre making him look better by using the PER36 metric here.

Garland has been an allstar in the lead guard role before. Just having watched them enough shows Garland >> IQ and the funny thing is that Garland is a year younger than IQ too lol.

Garland 382/492 = played 77.6% of games
IQ 324/410 = played 79% of games

I mean I guess you can hold last year's injuries against IQ if you want but even with that he's right on par with Garland in terms of their availability for their careers. It's probably more likely than not that last year was a fluke as he's been pretty durable through most of his career.

I used PER 36 to illustrate that they aren't that far off in terms of production in their minutes played.

If you want to take starter numbers instead, IQ is at 18.9 PPG 5.9 APG 4.4 RPG on 57.4 TS% in 32.6 MPG. Garland is at 19.0 PPG 6.7 APG 2.7 RPG on 56.9 TS% in 33.4 MPG. You are saying Garland is on a whole different level, that implies it's not even close between them at all. I'm only pointing out numbers that show it might not be as far off as that.

[ciueli]

He's at a career 0.5 BPG playing over 30 MPG, that's incredibly difficult to do when you're playing C. You're blocking shots just by accident when you're that tall and near the rim so often.

Is there a massive difference between him averaging 0.5 BPG and Jokic averaging 0.6 BPG? Or Towns averaging 0.7 BPG? There are very few centers in the NBA who are legitimately good at shot blocking, I've said this before, shot blocking is a dying art in the NBA, there's only 8 players who averaged 1.5 BPG last season and the only guy I've heard might be for trade for out of that list is Walker Kessler.

Ok, if you think blocks aren't important. We can also add steals into the equation too.

Jokic and Towns both average 2 Stocks per game in their career. Jokic was at 2.4 last season and Towns at 1.7. Jokic was really bad defending the rim last year and just generally avoids fouling in general because of how important he is to the team. Towns is a below average defender at this point, not sure anyone would argue otherwise.

Sabonis in comparison is at 1.3 stocks per game over his career and was at 1.1 stocks last season.

If he was the player you want him to be he wouldn't be available in trade for anything we have. No player is perfect, Giannis is poor free throw shooter and can't space the floor, Durant's defence is dropping off and he has a terrible heath record, KAT just got savaged in the media for losing to the Pacers because he's clueless on defence and blows coverages constantly. If we're legitimately interested in adding star talent to our roster, actual star talent that we can realistically trade for, I don't see many options outside players like Sabonis or Darius Garland.

[bballsparkin]

RJ has no value. Yak has value to some teams, but no team with a stretch C is going to trade him for Yak.

RJ was one of the only enjoyable players to watch the end of the 2024 season. If nothing else, he's incredibly entertaining on a not so good team. I could see a team like the Bucks wanting him for that reason alone. I agree with your sentiment. The team is not ready for Giannis. Especially not if the Bucks want Barnes one of the teams top prospects and frps that extend into the 2030s. That would make me very nervous.

I'm a huge KD fan. But dude is aged. He should go to a team like the Rockets or the Mavs if they could somehow pull it off.

[tsherkin]

That team post-Kawhi was a championship contender.

Were we? I don't think we'd get past the Heat, nor beat the Lakers. We gave Boston a tough time, particularly since Brown and Kemba couldn't hit a 3 to save their lives. But with how bad Fred was and Kyle struggling with his shot, it was kind of remarkable we held out as long as we did.

Fred sucked sufficiently as a scorer that I think we were always going to run into stuff like what happened in Game 7. And then Lowry also had a rough game because he was also a low-FG%, high-draw guy, and Pascal had a rough game, and OG and Gasol had off nights. We lacked That Guy (TM) for an authentic title run.

[bballsparkin]

Is there a massive difference between him averaging 0.5 BPG and Jokic averaging 0.6 BPG? Or Towns averaging 0.7 BPG? There are very few centers in the NBA who are legitimately good at shot blocking, I've said this before, shot blocking is a dying art in the NBA, there's only 8 players who averaged 1.5 BPG last season and the only guy I've heard might be for trade for out of that list is Walker Kessler.

I don't see the fit. Barnes and Sabonis both should play with a stretch C who can defend IMO. Which is obviously hard to get. At least till nearing the end of the game. I think Sabonis fits with Jakob more than he does with Scottie.

[bballsparkin]

That team post-Kawhi was a championship contender.

Were we? I don't think we'd get past the Heat, nor beat the Lakers. We gave Boston a tough time, particularly since Brown and Kemba couldn't hit a 3 to save their lives. But with how bad Fred was and Kyle struggling with his shot, it was kind of remarkable we held out as long as we did.

Fred sucked sufficiently as a scorer that I think we were always going to run into stuff like what happened in Game 7. And then Lowry also had a rough game because he was also a low-FG%, high-draw guy, and Pascal had a rough game, and OG and Gasol had off nights. We lacked That Guy (TM) for an authentic title run.

They had a good chance because that was a pretty weak year. But yeah, I have a hard time seeing them beat the star power of AD with LBJ.

[PushDaRock]

Is there a massive difference between him averaging 0.5 BPG and Jokic averaging 0.6 BPG? Or Towns averaging 0.7 BPG? There are very few centers in the NBA who are legitimately good at shot blocking, I've said this before, shot blocking is a dying art in the NBA, there's only 8 players who averaged 1.5 BPG last season and the only guy I've heard might be for trade for out of that list is Walker Kessler.

Ok, if you think blocks aren't important. We can also add steals into the equation too.

Jokic and Towns both average 2 Stocks per game in their career. Jokic was at 2.4 last season and Towns at 1.7. Jokic was really bad defending the rim last year and just generally avoids fouling in general because of how important he is to the team. Towns is a below average defender at this point, not sure anyone would argue otherwise.

Sabonis in comparison is at 1.3 stocks per game over his career and was at 1.1 stocks last season.

If he was the player you want him to be he wouldn't be available in trade for anything we have. No player is perfect, Giannis is poor free throw shooter and can't space the floor, Durant's defence is dropping off and he has a terrible heath record, KAT just got savaged in the media for losing to the Pacers because he's clueless on defence and blows coverages constantly. If we're legitimately interested in adding star talent to our roster, actual star talent that we can realistically trade for, I don't see many options outside players like Sabonis or Darius Garland.

You were saying he isn't bad as a defender, I simply disagree and think he sucks. Not sure how that has anything to do with him needing to be a perfect player.

I don't have interest in Garland, I don't see him as that significant of an upgrade over IQ to where we should give up significant assets to get him.

Sabonis isn't a bad player, but the price tag wouldn't be what I'm willing to pay. It wouldn't be an Ingram type opportunity where we get someone really talented for contract filler and minimal draft compensation. We would have to take away talent from the actual team on top of significant draft assets and I don't think Sabonis moves the needle enough for that.

[Duffman100]

I would be worried if Masai had ever given up too much before, and he never has, so this is based on nothing. In fact, he has been criticized for overvaluing his own assets in the past, but he has generally been right including his stance on guys like Siakam and OG. You cheer for a team who's decision-maker seems to be able to evaluate talent at an elite level.

Yeah even the poeltl trade. The value of was totally fine just bad timing for the trade.

Personally I think we would have preferred the pick in both seasons. It's not that Poeltl isn't valuable, but we gave up pretty much the maximum value available in that trade. The weak protections were a sign that he was leveraged. He didn't trade Poeltl to then have to rip down the team and win 30 games a year the next two seasons. It all just happened as a result of bad planning.

Yes but everythig you said had to do with timing and context of the trade, not the pure value of the trade itself.

9th pick for Poeltl, for what Poeltl provides isn't bad value. It's just that as a team, in the position we are in, the 9th pick would have been preferable.

[PushDaRock]

That team post-Kawhi was a championship contender.

Were we? I don't think we'd get past the Heat, nor beat the Lakers. We gave Boston a tough time, particularly since Brown and Kemba couldn't hit a 3 to save their lives. But with how bad Fred was and Kyle struggling with his shot, it was kind of remarkable we held out as long as we did.

Fred sucked sufficiently as a scorer that I think we were always going to run into stuff like what happened in Game 7. And then Lowry also had a rough game because he was also a low-FG%, high-draw guy, and Pascal had a rough game, and OG and Gasol had off nights. We lacked That Guy (TM) for an authentic title run.

We probably win that Boston series if Siakam played even remotely up to his normal standards.

Siakam 19/20 regular Season: 22.9 ppg on 55.4 TS% and 28.1 USG rate
Siakam in the Boston series in the Bubble: 14.9 ppg on 43.4 TS% and 21.4 USG rate

He pretty much had the yips in the bubble. It wasn't just shooting poorly, he was our best player and acted like he was a role player in that series.

[bballsparkin]

Yes but everythig you said had to do with timing and context of the trade, not the pure value of the trade itself.

9th pick for Poeltl, for what Poeltl provides isn't bad value. It's just that as a team, in the position we are in, the 9th pick would have been preferable.

I'll never claim to be realgm potential. I want to draft #9. Losing a top 10 pick two years straight would hurt personally. I love the draft. Kudos for Ja'Kobe and Shead etc though. They did good all things considered.