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Ayton

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Re: Ayton 

Post#81 » by JasonStern » Fri Jun 6, 2025 11:22 pm

DeBlazerRiddem wrote:I'll throw in my hot take... Ayton is mercurial. He is inconsistent, more so than many players. There is good Ayton and bad Ayton. The good Ayton doesn't do enough (or show up enough) to justify the bad Ayton but it is there. He is not Hassan Whiteside type bad. I remember him and Ayton is better than that. There is a good player in there, limited but positive at points, he was part of a good Suns team and IIRC was a part of our mini run mid season. But again, it is too often out shadowed by the bad and you look at year after year progression and it is a downward trend for Ayton, no one smart bets on that trend reversing, maybe a bump or two in a contract year but the trend will continue. Suns fans told us as much. Thankfully we have a young center who seems to have a good defensive impact on our hands so we don't even have to make a tough decision.

Both Ayton and Simons should be allowed to expire. If they take MLE ish contracts to stay with a familiar situation then maybe, and I stress that maybe, you consider their ability to contribute in smaller roles but it will be a day of great shame to our front office if either get extended with real significant money. A day that like most I fear is entirely possible, this front office doesn't seem to know when to get off a bad ride.


You're just regurgitating what I said, but nicely.
Whiteside was great on a minimum contract. Same with Carmelo. Solid minimum level contract players that could have helped sweep the floors after the game was over.
Ayton and Simons are very good, solid players that are worthy of a full MLE contract. If another team wants to pay above market value for them, it might make sense for that team. At that point, you let them walk. For a stuck in a headless rebuild Blazers team, you try to retain them on a reasonable contract, but you don't overpay. Cap flexibility is an asset.
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Re: Ayton 

Post#82 » by Wizenheimer » Sat Jun 7, 2025 4:21 am

JasonStern wrote:Ayton is a top 20 center. I don't know why this is hard to fathom. .


Chet Holmgren
Isaiah Hartenstein
Alperen Sengun
Nicola Jokic
Ivica Zubac
Rudy Gobert
Jaren Jackson Jr.
Domantas Sabonis
AD
Donovan Clingan
Wemby
Walter Kessler
Jarrett Allen
Evan Mobley
Porzingis
KAT
Myles Turner
Jalen Duren
Okongwu
Vucevic
Bam Adebayo
Nic Claxton
Joel Embiid


Mark Williams
Wendall Carter Jr.
Daniel Gafford
Jakob Poeltl
Clint Capela
Valunciunas
Mitchell Robinson
Naz Reid
Zach Edey

23 C's on that 1st list; 9 on the 2nd. When you gauge by talent-impact-upside-salary, I'm not even sure Ayton is top-25 in the league. He's a poster boy for empty calories. Portland was 17-23 with him; 19-23 without him.
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Re: Ayton 

Post#83 » by PDXKnight » Sat Jun 7, 2025 4:54 am

tblazrdude wrote:
PDXKnight wrote:^ Id assess fair market value for ayton to be somewhere around 15-20 million. I personally wouldn't want the Blazers to pay that but I think it would be "fair" value for a second tier center. 10 mil seems about right for a backup center but i can't see ayton being on board with that so hopefully we just deal him or let him move on


can someone point me to an example of a big money player 27 or younger taking less money to stay with that team?

I can't think of one. usually you take less money to go to a destination of your choosing.


Yeah id agree with that. Usually if they're willing to take less money the team doesnt want to re sign them either as typically it means they're falling short of expectations. Generally its a sensible time for all parties to part ways

My dollar amount was figurative. I view clingan as the long term starter as im sure most do. I cant see ayton being willing to come off the bench here
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Re: Ayton 

Post#84 » by Norm2953 » Sat Jun 7, 2025 6:38 am

Makes total sense for neither Ayton/Simons should be willing to take major pay cuts to stay in Portland.

I do think Simons will take a bit less in an extension to go to Orlando. With all the talk of an active off season
around the league and the specter of new owner, it doesn't make sense for Portland to go out and give out
stupid money to Ayton/Simons for Portland is not the Celtics and nobody thinks they are a real playoff
contender.

Team is in transition but has some solid pieces already in place.
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Re: Ayton 

Post#85 » by BlazersBroncos » Sat Jun 7, 2025 2:58 pm

Wizenheimer wrote:
JasonStern wrote:Ayton is a top 20 center. I don't know why this is hard to fathom. .


Chet Holmgren
Isaiah Hartenstein
Alperen Sengun
Nicola Jokic
Ivica Zubac
Rudy Gobert
Jaren Jackson Jr.
Domantas Sabonis
AD
Donovan Clingan
Wemby
Walter Kessler
Jarrett Allen
Evan Mobley
Porzingis
KAT
Myles Turner
Jalen Duren
Okongwu
Vucevic
Bam Adebayo
Nic Claxton
Joel Embiid


Mark Williams
Wendall Carter Jr.
Daniel Gafford
Jakob Poeltl
Clint Capela
Valunciunas
Mitchell Robinson
Naz Reid
Zach Edey

23 C's on that 1st list; 9 on the 2nd. When you gauge by talent-impact-upside-salary, I'm not even sure Ayton is top-25 in the league. He's a poster boy for empty calories. Portland was 17-23 with him; 19-23 without him.


Ya - the idea tha Ayton is a Top-20 C is wild. I would literally take every player you listed over him. + a few like Vuc.
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Re: Ayton 

Post#86 » by Walton1one » Sun Jun 8, 2025 4:01 am

Does it really matter what they are paid though? Because IMO neither one of them are winning players.

You can’t win meaningful games with an ISO heavy, short SG who is one of the worst defenders in the NBA, like top 5 bad

Or a mercurial center whom you don’t know what you are getting from night to night effort wise, loves shooting mid range jumpers as much as KAT loves shooting 3’s, at inopportune times (of course) and with bad efficiency compared to what he shoots in the paint. Oh yeah and he is one of, if not THE worst screen setters in the entire NBA

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In the paint 66%
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Left hash high\low 29%/47%
Right hash high\low 50%/24%

A team cannot consistently win with players like that. So yeah, I do not care what they are paid, better gone than on this team
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Re: Ayton 

Post#87 » by tblazrdude » Tue Jun 10, 2025 1:06 am

Walton1one wrote:Does it really matter what they are paid though?


this is how I feel about sabonis. even if his contract was way less, the moment you trade for sabonis you're the sabonis team.
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Re: Ayton 

Post#88 » by dckingsfan » Fri Jun 13, 2025 9:21 pm

tblazrdude wrote:
Walton1one wrote:Does it really matter what they are paid though?

this is how I feel about sabonis. even if his contract was way less, the moment you trade for sabonis you're the sabonis team.

Well yes and no.

The Blazer's '26-27 cap situation is good enough where it wouldn't be a problem.

There are a lot of caveats here though. You don't include picks when trading for Sabonis. It would need to be Sabonis for Ayton. If the Kings want picks - the answer is no.

And then you get to coaching. You would need to start Clingan/Sabonis. You know that Deni/Camara need to start, so that just leaves who starts a PG.

Does that get you deeper into playoff territory. Yep. Will it happen, nope.

Would I like to see the trade - absolutely.
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Re: Ayton 

Post#89 » by MyTake_1 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 12:07 pm

Wizenheimer wrote:
JasonStern wrote:Ayton is a top 20 center. I don't know why this is hard to fathom. .


Chet Holmgren
Isaiah Hartenstein
Alperen Sengun
Nicola Jokic
Ivica Zubac
Rudy Gobert
Jaren Jackson Jr.
Domantas Sabonis
AD
Donovan Clingan
Wemby
Walter Kessler
Jarrett Allen
Evan Mobley
Porzingis
KAT
Myles Turner
Jalen Duren
Okongwu
Vucevic
Bam Adebayo
Nic Claxton
Joel Embiid


Mark Williams
Wendall Carter Jr.
Daniel Gafford
Jakob Poeltl
Clint Capela
Valunciunas
Mitchell Robinson
Naz Reid
Zach Edey

23 C's on that 1st list; 9 on the 2nd. When you gauge by talent-impact-upside-salary, I'm not even sure Ayton is top-25 in the league. He's a poster boy for empty calories. Portland was 17-23 with him; 19-23 without him.


Half of those listed are not really centers, and then many of them are really not an option for anything but a minimal bench role.
The point is, there is a shortage of bigs, and someone may bite and offer something marginally useful for Ayton.
Portland needs to get rid of this guy now; cannot have him on this roster for another year.
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Re: Ayton 

Post#90 » by Wizenheimer » Sat Jun 14, 2025 3:48 pm

MyTake_1 wrote:
Wizenheimer wrote:
JasonStern wrote:Ayton is a top 20 center. I don't know why this is hard to fathom. .


Chet Holmgren
Isaiah Hartenstein
Alperen Sengun
Nicola Jokic
Ivica Zubac
Rudy Gobert
Jaren Jackson Jr.
Domantas Sabonis
AD
Donovan Clingan
Wemby
Walter Kessler
Jarrett Allen
Evan Mobley
Porzingis
KAT
Myles Turner
Jalen Duren
Okongwu
Vucevic
Bam Adebayo
Nic Claxton
Joel Embiid


Mark Williams
Wendall Carter Jr.
Daniel Gafford
Jakob Poeltl
Clint Capela
Valunciunas
Mitchell Robinson
Naz Reid
Zach Edey

23 C's on that 1st list; 9 on the 2nd. When you gauge by talent-impact-upside-salary, I'm not even sure Ayton is top-25 in the league. He's a poster boy for empty calories. Portland was 17-23 with him; 19-23 without him.


Half of those listed are not really centers, and then many of them are really not an option for anything but a minimal bench role.
The point is, there is a shortage of bigs, and someone may bite and offer something marginally useful for Ayton.
Portland needs to get rid of this guy now; cannot have him on this roster for another year.


lol...this is way too often the take people have: "oh c'mon now; Ayton is better than a lot of other C's. But the Blazers need to dump him as soon as possible because he totally sucks"

and no, "half" of those guys are not PF's. I think Mobley is about the only one who has spent less time at C than at PF
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Re: Ayton 

Post#91 » by tblazrdude » Mon Jun 16, 2025 7:08 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
tblazrdude wrote:
Walton1one wrote:Does it really matter what they are paid though?

this is how I feel about sabonis. even if his contract was way less, the moment you trade for sabonis you're the sabonis team.

Well yes and no.

The Blazer's '26-27 cap situation is good enough where it wouldn't be a problem.

There are a lot of caveats here though. You don't include picks when trading for Sabonis. It would need to be Sabonis for Ayton. If the Kings want picks - the answer is no.

And then you get to coaching. You would need to start Clingan/Sabonis. You know that Deni/Camara need to start, so that just leaves who starts a PG.

Does that get you deeper into playoff territory. Yep. Will it happen, nope.

Would I like to see the trade - absolutely.


My point is that his contract isn't the issue, it's that he's a big mouth to feed and you need your roster to be perfectly suited to win with him--and even then that's a debatable thing. it sounds like you believe in it. at this stage of the rebuild, I don't.

it's a moot point because I think sacramento is about to find out that they value sabonis way more than other teams would in a trade.

I'd love to hear the basketball case for sabonis--I haven't heard a compelling one yet.
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Re: Ayton 

Post#92 » by dckingsfan » Mon Jun 16, 2025 7:41 pm

tblazrdude wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
tblazrdude wrote:this is how I feel about sabonis. even if his contract was way less, the moment you trade for sabonis you're the sabonis team.

Well yes and no.

The Blazer's '26-27 cap situation is good enough where it wouldn't be a problem.

There are a lot of caveats here though. You don't include picks when trading for Sabonis. It would need to be Sabonis for Ayton. If the Kings want picks - the answer is no.

And then you get to coaching. You would need to start Clingan/Sabonis. You know that Deni/Camara need to start, so that just leaves who starts a PG.

Does that get you deeper into playoff territory. Yep. Will it happen, nope.

Would I like to see the trade - absolutely.


My point is that his contract isn't the issue, it's that he's a big mouth to feed and you need your roster to be perfectly suited to win with him--and even then that's a debatable thing. it sounds like you believe in it. at this stage of the rebuild, I don't.

it's a moot point because I think sacramento is about to find out that they value sabonis way more than other teams would in a trade.

I'd love to hear the basketball case for sabonis--I haven't heard a compelling one yet.

The compelling case is that he is a highly skilled offensive FC player that needs a rim protector behind him. He shoots the 3 really well making him a 3 level scorer.

Combined with Clingan, it is a really good fit for Portland defensively. Camara, Deni, Sabonis and Clingan could do damage - even in the west.

If you could do a swap with Ayton and Sabonis straight up - it would be an awesome trade. Not happening but since this is the Ayton thread...

Why, you would end up with 2 - 2A scoring options. If you trot out a pair of PGs that can get Deni & Sabonis involved in every play, you would be much better shape as both of them happily share the ball. Clingan is an elite rim protector and defensive rebounder, Deni, Sabonis and Clingan are elite defensive rebounders... and then you have Camara.

My 1/2 cent...
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Re: Ayton 

Post#93 » by BlazersBroncos » Tue Jun 17, 2025 3:44 am

SAC isn’t swapping Sabonis for Ayton straight up. I don’t think they do it if we include 11 and a future 1st even.
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Re: Ayton 

Post#94 » by Norm2953 » Tue Jun 17, 2025 4:01 am

The only way Sacramento would do such a trade was if they were over the second Apron.
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Re: Ayton 

Post#95 » by DaVoiceMaster » Yesterday 8:08 pm

Would you trade Ayton and Murray to the Lakers for Knecht, Vincent, Kleiber, and Vanderbilt?

Would the Lakers make that trade? Portland takes on an additional 2-years of Vanderbilt, but it's only $23 total and that's if he picks up his player option that last year. Portland has a backup PG, SG, PF, and C with this trade. I'm doing this trade to get Knecht.
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Re: Ayton 

Post#96 » by BlazersBroncos » Yesterday 8:27 pm

DaVoiceMaster wrote:Would you trade Ayton and Murray to the Lakers for Knecht, Vincent, Kleiber, and Vanderbilt?

Would the Lakers make that trade? Portland takes on an additional 2-years of Vanderbilt, but it's only $23 total and that's if he picks up his player option that last year. Portland has a backup PG, SG, PF, and C with this trade. I'm doing this trade to get Knecht.


I have been a fan of this move for a while. But out Kleber. Vincent is a passable backup or 3rd stringer for a year. Vandy fits our defensive identity and can play spot minutes 3-5 (sort of super 3rd stringer who will just find 15 or so minutes a game) and Dalton is a nice swing who at minimum provides shooting (needed with Simons ideally traded).
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Re: Ayton 

Post#97 » by DaVoiceMaster » Yesterday 10:33 pm

BlazersBroncos wrote:
DaVoiceMaster wrote:Would you trade Ayton and Murray to the Lakers for Knecht, Vincent, Kleiber, and Vanderbilt?

Would the Lakers make that trade? Portland takes on an additional 2-years of Vanderbilt, but it's only $23 total and that's if he picks up his player option that last year. Portland has a backup PG, SG, PF, and C with this trade. I'm doing this trade to get Knecht.


I have been a fan of this move for a while. But out Kleber. Vincent is a passable backup or 3rd stringer for a year. Vandy fits our defensive identity and can play spot minutes 3-5 (sort of super 3rd stringer who will just find 15 or so minutes a game) and Dalton is a nice swing who at minimum provides shooting (needed with Simons ideally traded).


Yep, still wanna move Simon's and Grant if possible. I'd move RW3 for whatever and possibly Thybulle.
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Re: Ayton 

Post#98 » by tester551 » Yesterday 11:12 pm

DaVoiceMaster wrote:
BlazersBroncos wrote:
DaVoiceMaster wrote:Would you trade Ayton and Murray to the Lakers for Knecht, Vincent, Kleiber, and Vanderbilt?

Would the Lakers make that trade? Portland takes on an additional 2-years of Vanderbilt, but it's only $23 total and that's if he picks up his player option that last year. Portland has a backup PG, SG, PF, and C with this trade. I'm doing this trade to get Knecht.


I have been a fan of this move for a while. But out Kleber. Vincent is a passable backup or 3rd stringer for a year. Vandy fits our defensive identity and can play spot minutes 3-5 (sort of super 3rd stringer who will just find 15 or so minutes a game) and Dalton is a nice swing who at minimum provides shooting (needed with Simons ideally traded).


Yep, still wanna move Simon's and Grant if possible. I'd move RW3 for whatever and possibly Thybulle.

Id consider the Laker trade ONLY if we had a second one to send Knecht out for better assets.

That dude is SO overrated. He's going to be a career 7th/8th man.

Simons/Grant should be moved if possible.

Having both Thybulle & Vando is problematic. I like both, but prefer Thybulle...

So after thinking about it more -> no I would not do the Laker trade. I would need a lot more incentive
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Re: Ayton 

Post#99 » by cucad8 » Yesterday 11:52 pm

tester551 wrote:
DaVoiceMaster wrote:
BlazersBroncos wrote:
I have been a fan of this move for a while. But out Kleber. Vincent is a passable backup or 3rd stringer for a year. Vandy fits our defensive identity and can play spot minutes 3-5 (sort of super 3rd stringer who will just find 15 or so minutes a game) and Dalton is a nice swing who at minimum provides shooting (needed with Simons ideally traded).


Yep, still wanna move Simon's and Grant if possible. I'd move RW3 for whatever and possibly Thybulle.

Id consider the Laker trade ONLY if we had a second one to send Knecht out for better assets.

That dude is SO overrated. He's going to be a career 7th/8th man.


I'd take It'd be great to add a confident shooter off the bench for him.
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Re: Ayton 

Post#100 » by Tim Lehrbach » Today 12:17 am

I think I'd rather "lose" Ayton and Murray to FA than trade them for longer salaries. I mean, I've always kinda liked Vanderbilt, but I'd rather have the savings/potential cap space.
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