2024-25 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3621 » by jalengreen » Fri Jun 6, 2025 6:24 pm

Outside wrote:
jalengreen wrote:
Outside wrote:-- Will the Pacers' recent PS experience vs OKC's lack of experience continue to be a difference-maker?


They have pretty similar "recent PS experience". I don't see it as some sort of significant team wide advantage. Denver series was especially a great experience builder for OKC, down 1-0 and 2-1 with multiple clutch games and an eventual G7.

Granted, the Finals are different and you'd expect more nerves for the biggest stage in the sport. But the team that came out with 19 first half turnovers wasn't the one that impressed me as far as controlling nerves go tbh

The Denver series was definitely great experience for OKC. I was referring more to last season, where Indy made the conference finals while OKC lost in the 2nd round. Indy played 17 games last PS compared to 10 for OKC; not necessarily a huge difference, but it was a big positive step for Indy and a disappointment for OKC.

There's also the coaching experience. Daignault is a really good coach, but Carlisle has a huge advantage in PS experience.

Indy's belief in themselves and their poise to withstand deficits and keep themselves in the game comes from somewhere. They see themselves as never being out of the game, while OKC has a seed of doubt that Indy doesn't have. Experience is a factor.


Carlisle is a fair shout but what are you even talking about with this "seed of doubt" stuff?
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3622 » by Outside » Fri Jun 6, 2025 9:13 pm

jalengreen wrote:
Outside wrote:
jalengreen wrote:
They have pretty similar "recent PS experience". I don't see it as some sort of significant team wide advantage. Denver series was especially a great experience builder for OKC, down 1-0 and 2-1 with multiple clutch games and an eventual G7.

Granted, the Finals are different and you'd expect more nerves for the biggest stage in the sport. But the team that came out with 19 first half turnovers wasn't the one that impressed me as far as controlling nerves go tbh

The Denver series was definitely great experience for OKC. I was referring more to last season, where Indy made the conference finals while OKC lost in the 2nd round. Indy played 17 games last PS compared to 10 for OKC; not necessarily a huge difference, but it was a big positive step for Indy and a disappointment for OKC.

There's also the coaching experience. Daignault is a really good coach, but Carlisle has a huge advantage in PS experience.

Indy's belief in themselves and their poise to withstand deficits and keep themselves in the game comes from somewhere. They see themselves as never being out of the game, while OKC has a seed of doubt that Indy doesn't have. Experience is a factor.


Carlisle is a fair shout but what are you even talking about with this "seed of doubt" stuff?

Sorry, I know it's not a data point. It's subjective. But in my subjective view, I also saw it in the Denver series, where they tightened up down the stretch, epitomized by JWill missing or not taking shots but also the other guys, like they're waiting for SGA to bail them out. Indy, on the other hand, all of them are willing to take shots, and collectively, they make them.

With five minutes to go, OKC was up 102-96. The only Thunder player to score in the last five minutes was SGA, who made two 2pt baskets and four FTs. JWill missed two 2s and a 3, Chet missed a breakaway layup, Dort missed a 3, and SGA missed two 2s. As a team, they were 2-9 with two other possessions ending in SGA FTs. The last Thunder player other than SGA to score was JWill making two FTs at 5:25 left, and prior to that was Wallace with a layup with 7:32 left.

Indiana's last five minutes:

Haliburton made 2
Turner missed 3
Haliburton missed 3
Haliburton missed 2
Siakim 1-1 FTs
Nesmith made 3
Nembhard made 3
Nesmith missed 2
Nembhard 2 FTs
Nembhard missed 3
Siakim made 2
Haliburton made 2

Total 5-10 with two other possessions resulting in FTs. Five different guys took shots and four of them scored.

Subjectively, it looks to me that everyone on Indiana trust themselves and all of their teammates to take and make shots at the end of games, while on OKC, no one except SGA trusts themselves and everyone except SGA is looking for SGA to bail them out.

That's me interpreting body language and the results of how the game played out down the stretch. Disagreeing with that because it's subjective is totally fair, though I'm interested to know if anyone else sees it the same way.

The only reason it was a close game is because OKC didn't capitalize on the flood of Pacer turnovers in the first half. It should've been a 25-point lead at the half instead of 10. That's a fairly objective point, but my subjective add to it is that a big reason that it wasn't 25 is because of Indiana's poise.
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3623 » by parsnips33 » Fri Jun 6, 2025 9:33 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:
parsnips33 wrote:Knicks winning 60 next year if they make the right hire I think


I like your optimism but I don't see it.


If it doesn't happen I can always say they made the wrong hire :lol:

But really I just feel like a more movement based offense could raise their ceiling significantly. As entertaining as I found the Jalen Brunson Show, there's a lot of talented players on that roster and spreading things out a bit could be big
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3624 » by CKRT » Fri Jun 6, 2025 9:45 pm

parsnips33 wrote:Indiana is so likable

Hard not to think that the Warriors could have had Haliburton. Would have been beautiful stuff


Imagine being a Kings fan. :noway:
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3625 » by CKRT » Fri Jun 6, 2025 9:55 pm



Caitlin's breakdown of G1 is great stuff.
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3626 » by jalengreen » Sat Jun 7, 2025 12:05 am

Outside wrote:
jalengreen wrote:
Outside wrote:The Denver series was definitely great experience for OKC. I was referring more to last season, where Indy made the conference finals while OKC lost in the 2nd round. Indy played 17 games last PS compared to 10 for OKC; not necessarily a huge difference, but it was a big positive step for Indy and a disappointment for OKC.

There's also the coaching experience. Daignault is a really good coach, but Carlisle has a huge advantage in PS experience.

Indy's belief in themselves and their poise to withstand deficits and keep themselves in the game comes from somewhere. They see themselves as never being out of the game, while OKC has a seed of doubt that Indy doesn't have. Experience is a factor.


Carlisle is a fair shout but what are you even talking about with this "seed of doubt" stuff?

Sorry, I know it's not a data point. It's subjective. But in my subjective view, I also saw it in the Denver series, where they tightened up down the stretch, epitomized by JWill missing or not taking shots but also the other guys, like they're waiting for SGA to bail them out. Indy, on the other hand, all of them are willing to take shots, and collectively, they make them.

With five minutes to go, OKC was up 102-96. The only Thunder player to score in the last five minutes was SGA, who made two 2pt baskets and four FTs. JWill missed two 2s and a 3, Chet missed a breakaway layup, Dort missed a 3, and SGA missed two 2s. As a team, they were 2-9 with two other possessions ending in SGA FTs. The last Thunder player other than SGA to score was JWill making two FTs at 5:25 left, and prior to that was Wallace with a layup with 7:32 left.

Indiana's last five minutes:

Haliburton made 2
Turner missed 3
Haliburton missed 3
Haliburton missed 2
Siakim 1-1 FTs
Nesmith made 3
Nembhard made 3
Nesmith missed 2
Nembhard 2 FTs
Nembhard missed 3
Siakim made 2
Haliburton made 2

Total 5-10 with two other possessions resulting in FTs. Five different guys took shots and four of them scored.

Subjectively, it looks to me that everyone on Indiana trust themselves and all of their teammates to take and make shots at the end of games, while on OKC, no one except SGA trusts themselves and everyone except SGA is looking for SGA to bail them out.

That's me interpreting body language and the results of how the game played out down the stretch. Disagreeing with that because it's subjective is totally fair, though I'm interested to know if anyone else sees it the same way.

The only reason it was a close game is because OKC didn't capitalize on the flood of Pacer turnovers in the first half. It should've been a 25-point lead at the half instead of 10. That's a fairly objective point, but my subjective add to it is that a big reason that it wasn't 25 is because of Indiana's poise.


Not everything can be objective so that’s fine, I guess I just don’t see it the same way

I agree that the Pacers have a more egalitarian offense, but that’s because the Thunder have the best scorer in the NBA and a relatively weak #2 (as far as half court scoring prowess goes). An egalitarian approach wouldn’t make as much sense with their personnel. Nor would it make much sense for Indiana to play like OKC with their personnel.

You mentioned the Denver series, which definitely had moments where OKC faltered down the stretch, but there were also two games where they entered the 4th quarter with a deficit and pulled away the rest of the way and won. We’ve seen both sides of the coin with them. And their last two wins of that series had some clutch JDub performances IIRC.

And sure, OKC went cold last night.. but guys were taking shots. The second to last possession of the game was Shai passing up a shot, giving it to JDub with 8 left on the shot clock, signaling for the ball back, and JDub decided to take it himself and try to score on Nesmith. He failed and it was a pretty bad attempt, but it was a good example of how I view JDub’s offensive mindset, which is not a guy who really looks to defer to Shai all that much.

As for the last point, I think poise would’ve prevented Indiana from the flood of turnovers in the first place. I’d go with the opposite analysis and say it was an example of their lack of poise going in.

All in all I think the coaching experience advantage is a fair one to point out. We’ve already seen some coaching question marks from Mark this postseason, even if he’s all in all done a great job with the unit over the last two years. Siakam is also by far the most experienced starter in the series, which is worth something. That’s probably where I’d leave it.
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3627 » by Outside » Sat Jun 7, 2025 1:54 am

jalengreen wrote:
Spoiler:
Outside wrote:
jalengreen wrote:
Carlisle is a fair shout but what are you even talking about with this "seed of doubt" stuff?

Sorry, I know it's not a data point. It's subjective. But in my subjective view, I also saw it in the Denver series, where they tightened up down the stretch, epitomized by JWill missing or not taking shots but also the other guys, like they're waiting for SGA to bail them out. Indy, on the other hand, all of them are willing to take shots, and collectively, they make them.

With five minutes to go, OKC was up 102-96. The only Thunder player to score in the last five minutes was SGA, who made two 2pt baskets and four FTs. JWill missed two 2s and a 3, Chet missed a breakaway layup, Dort missed a 3, and SGA missed two 2s. As a team, they were 2-9 with two other possessions ending in SGA FTs. The last Thunder player other than SGA to score was JWill making two FTs at 5:25 left, and prior to that was Wallace with a layup with 7:32 left.

Indiana's last five minutes:

Haliburton made 2
Turner missed 3
Haliburton missed 3
Haliburton missed 2
Siakim 1-1 FTs
Nesmith made 3
Nembhard made 3
Nesmith missed 2
Nembhard 2 FTs
Nembhard missed 3
Siakim made 2
Haliburton made 2

Total 5-10 with two other possessions resulting in FTs. Five different guys took shots and four of them scored.

Subjectively, it looks to me that everyone on Indiana trust themselves and all of their teammates to take and make shots at the end of games, while on OKC, no one except SGA trusts themselves and everyone except SGA is looking for SGA to bail them out.

That's me interpreting body language and the results of how the game played out down the stretch. Disagreeing with that because it's subjective is totally fair, though I'm interested to know if anyone else sees it the same way.

The only reason it was a close game is because OKC didn't capitalize on the flood of Pacer turnovers in the first half. It should've been a 25-point lead at the half instead of 10. That's a fairly objective point, but my subjective add to it is that a big reason that it wasn't 25 is because of Indiana's poise.


Not everything can be objective so that’s fine, I guess I just don’t see it the same way

I agree that the Pacers have a more egalitarian offense, but that’s because the Thunder have the best scorer in the NBA and a relatively weak #2 (as far as half court scoring prowess goes). An egalitarian approach wouldn’t make as much sense with their personnel. Nor would it make much sense for Indiana to play like OKC with their personnel.

You mentioned the Denver series, which definitely had moments where OKC faltered down the stretch, but there were also two games where they entered the 4th quarter with a deficit and pulled away the rest of the way and won. We’ve seen both sides of the coin with them. And their last two wins of that series had some clutch JDub performances IIRC.

And sure, OKC went cold last night.. but guys were taking shots. The second to last possession of the game was Shai passing up a shot, giving it to JDub with 8 left on the shot clock, signaling for the ball back, and JDub decided to take it himself and try to score on Nesmith. He failed and it was a pretty bad attempt, but it was a good example of how I view JDub’s offensive mindset, which is not a guy who really looks to defer to Shai all that much.

As for the last point, I think poise would’ve prevented Indiana from the flood of turnovers in the first place. I’d go with the opposite analysis and say it was an example of their lack of poise going in.

All in all I think the coaching experience advantage is a fair one to point out. We’ve already seen some coaching question marks from Mark this postseason, even if he’s all in all done a great job with the unit over the last two years. Siakam is also by far the most experienced starter in the series, which is worth something. That’s probably where I’d leave it.

I probably came across as too pro-Indiana. I still have OKC as the favorite. I agree with most everything you posted. I just think that Indiana has demonstrated uncommon poise throughout the playoffs and that it's an advantage that should be considered.

I should've focused on the "poise" aspect rather than "experience."
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3628 » by Peregrine01 » Sat Jun 7, 2025 2:06 pm

This season, Haliburton is 11/13 on shots to tie or take the lead with 2 minutes to go. This might be the most clutch season by a player ever.
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3629 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jun 7, 2025 6:36 pm

Peregrine01 wrote:This season, Haliburton is 11/13 on shots to tie or take the lead with 2 minutes to go. This might be the most clutch season by a player ever.


What I find so cool about this is that it's the same year he was voted Most Overrated and came out talking about his mental health issues.

The whole "clutch" mythos in basketball is essentially just a way of talking about alpha male dominance - if you got big enough genitalia, you'll win in the clutch!

To the extent anything clutch is real in the NBA, Haliburton is it, and Haliburton is just a guy doing his best who has been the foundational piece of a team with the best vibes going.
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3630 » by tsherkin » Sun Jun 8, 2025 12:34 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:This season, Haliburton is 11/13 on shots to tie or take the lead with 2 minutes to go. This might be the most clutch season by a player ever.


What I find so cool about this is that it's the same year he was voted Most Overrated and came out talking about his mental health issues.


It is a really nice "F U" tour for Hali right now, and if he and Indy win the title, it will be a capstone to that response to how he has been viewed by the rest of the league. 'Most overrated,' indeed...
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3631 » by ceiling raiser » Sun Jun 8, 2025 1:25 pm

Wondering if we're going to see rule changes because of the ratings (like after Spurs-Pacers)? Guess it will depend on how the series finishes out.

EDIT: Spurs-Pistons
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3632 » by tsherkin » Sun Jun 8, 2025 3:16 pm

ceiling raiser wrote:Wondering if we're going to see rule changes because of the ratings (like after Spurs-Pacers)? Guess it will depend on how the series finishes out.


Let's have the series continue first, because that was an exciting finish.
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3633 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jun 8, 2025 4:37 pm

ceiling raiser wrote:Wondering if we're going to see rule changes because of the ratings (like after Spurs-Pacers)? Guess it will depend on how the series finishes out.

Current Pacers are clear cut good basketball to watch so while they may need to make some changes pertaining to the physicality generally, there’s nothing to be done about the Pacers but move them to New York.

You make a bunch of salary cap rules to keep big markets from dominating, you run the risk of a finals between teams with extremely small hometown audiences. It can be fixed easily, but not without acknowledging that this is the parity they were chasing.

(Also, it was Spurs-Pistons, which I’m sure you meant to write. I just emphasize because of course, if Reggie Miller had been in the finals, it would have been more fun for the mainstream to watch.)


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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3634 » by tsherkin » Sun Jun 8, 2025 5:16 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
ceiling raiser wrote:Wondering if we're going to see rule changes because of the ratings (like after Spurs-Pacers)? Guess it will depend on how the series finishes out.

Current Pacers are clear cut good basketball to watch so while they may need to make some changes pertaining to the physicality generally, there’s nothing to be done about the Pacers but move them to New York.

You make a bunch of salary cap rules to keep big markets from dominating, you run the risk of a finals between teams with extremely small hometown audiences. It can be fixed easily, but not without acknowledging that this is the parity they were chasing.

(Also, it was Spurs-Pistons, which I’m sure you meant to write. I just emphasize because of course, if Reggie Miller had been in the finals, it would have been more fun for the mainstream to watch.)


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Was just watching the All the Smoke podcast episode with Reggie, speaking of. That was a GLORIOUS watch; if folks have not seen, MUCH recommended.
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3635 » by ShotCreator » Sun Jun 8, 2025 6:43 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:
TheGOATRises007 wrote:
They actually have been much better than I thought, but I'd be stunned if they won more than a game vs OKC.

OKC could lose to them if they screw around like they did against Denver.

Indiana’s younger, deeper and deadlier at the end of games. But other than that, they should put them away.

I think Indiana presents a real potential issue in how deep they are with passers. It’ll be the least centralized offense they’ve faced by far. And their defense really likes to cheat and kind of intimidate you with speed. Indiana could hypothetically exploit this.

Completely different levels but we saw the 2014 Finals as a good example of when a passing team takes a speed defense head on and aggressively attacks.


Indiana is not going to do +17 offense on OKC, but maybe they could do it for a game or two and that’s all it takes to make it a series.


It would be a fascinating matchup to see okc defense try to solve but i think calling the 2014 heat a "speed defense" may be a stretch

They used the most aggressive trapping scheme in the NBA and relied on speed, not length, rim protection or physicality on the glass to win possessions.

Can’t believe I actually got compelled to explain this. This is why Retro POY votes suck to me. The lack of size and the use of a pretty finesse guy in Bosh and how that actually looked in a 2014 NBA loaded with double big lineups is lost to time.

OKC is good all-around defensively but like the 14 Heat, forcing turnovers is their biggest strength.
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3636 » by ceiling raiser » Sun Jun 8, 2025 10:14 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
ceiling raiser wrote:Wondering if we're going to see rule changes because of the ratings (like after Spurs-Pacers)? Guess it will depend on how the series finishes out.

Current Pacers are clear cut good basketball to watch so while they may need to make some changes pertaining to the physicality generally, there’s nothing to be done about the Pacers but move them to New York.

You make a bunch of salary cap rules to keep big markets from dominating, you run the risk of a finals between teams with extremely small hometown audiences. It can be fixed easily, but not without acknowledging that this is the parity they were chasing.

(Also, it was Spurs-Pistons, which I’m sure you meant to write. I just emphasize because of course, if Reggie Miller had been in the finals, it would have been more fun for the mainstream to watch.)


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Spurs Pistons yes, edited. My bad.

I've been less interested in the NBA as LeBron/Curry have fallen off, but am curious at what will happen after this series.
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3637 » by tsherkin » Sun Jun 8, 2025 10:59 pm

ShotCreator wrote:They used the most aggressive trapping scheme in the NBA and relied on speed, not length, rim protection or physicality on the glass to win possessions.


I mean, Lebron had good length and hovered around 3 stocks a game with Miami. Wade was at 2.5. Bosh was around 2, and had pretty good length, even if he wasn't getting huge block numbers and stuff. He was big on D for them. Lebron roaming around like a monster...

They certainly didn't have a classic rim protector, but they they definitely had more length than you're describing, just not at the 5.
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3638 » by jalengreen » Sun Jun 8, 2025 11:33 pm

ceiling raiser wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
ceiling raiser wrote:Wondering if we're going to see rule changes because of the ratings (like after Spurs-Pacers)? Guess it will depend on how the series finishes out.

Current Pacers are clear cut good basketball to watch so while they may need to make some changes pertaining to the physicality generally, there’s nothing to be done about the Pacers but move them to New York.

You make a bunch of salary cap rules to keep big markets from dominating, you run the risk of a finals between teams with extremely small hometown audiences. It can be fixed easily, but not without acknowledging that this is the parity they were chasing.

(Also, it was Spurs-Pistons, which I’m sure you meant to write. I just emphasize because of course, if Reggie Miller had been in the finals, it would have been more fun for the mainstream to watch.)


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Spurs Pistons yes, edited. My bad.

I've been less interested in the NBA as LeBron/Curry have fallen off, but am curious at what will happen after this series.


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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3639 » by ShotCreator » Mon Jun 9, 2025 1:14 am

tsherkin wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:They used the most aggressive trapping scheme in the NBA and relied on speed, not length, rim protection or physicality on the glass to win possessions.


I mean, Lebron had good length and hovered around 3 stocks a game with Miami. Wade was at 2.5. Bosh was around 2, and had pretty good length, even if he wasn't getting huge block numbers and stuff. He was big on D for them. Lebron roaming around like a monster...

They certainly didn't have a classic rim protector, but they they definitely had more length than you're describing, just not at the 5.

The 2014 Thunder were long. Reggie Jackson was longer than Wade. Thabo Sefolosha was longer than LeBron. KD was longer than every Heat player on the roster. THEN you get to Serge Ibaka, a guy with twice as much paint presence as Bosh and longer by standing reach, who was their PF, and then Kendrick Perkins, who was also much longer than Bosh.

The Miami Heat were a small team. I'm not saying they weren't athletic, but they were definitely not 'long', especially in that NBA.



They ran a very taxing trapping scheme all year to make up for it. This would be a crazy thing to have to type in 2014.
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Re: 2024-25 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3640 » by falcolombardi » Mon Jun 9, 2025 3:04 am

ShotCreator wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:OKC could lose to them if they screw around like they did against Denver.

Indiana’s younger, deeper and deadlier at the end of games. But other than that, they should put them away.

I think Indiana presents a real potential issue in how deep they are with passers. It’ll be the least centralized offense they’ve faced by far. And their defense really likes to cheat and kind of intimidate you with speed. Indiana could hypothetically exploit this.

Completely different levels but we saw the 2014 Finals as a good example of when a passing team takes a speed defense head on and aggressively attacks.


Indiana is not going to do +17 offense on OKC, but maybe they could do it for a game or two and that’s all it takes to make it a series.


It would be a fascinating matchup to see okc defense try to solve but i think calling the 2014 heat a "speed defense" may be a stretch

They used the most aggressive trapping scheme in the NBA and relied on speed, not length, rim protection or physicality on the glass to win possessions.

Can’t believe I actually got compelled to explain this. This is why Retro POY votes suck to me. The lack of size and the use of a pretty finesse guy in Bosh and how that actually looked in a 2014 NBA loaded with double big lineups is lost to time.

OKC is good all-around defensively but like the 14 Heat, forcing turnovers is their biggest strength.


That is true for 2011-2013 heat, 2014 heat was tired down, older and slower and their defense fell off that year. Lebron himself improved offensively while slowing down defensively and he was the player who made it all work before in the D end

They were a "speed defense" without any speed left

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