Windhorst: Raptors making noise around the league looking for a “big fish” // Giannis & Toronto "Mutual Interest"/KD too

[ciueli]

Agree.

This franchise has always had a marketing problem to prospective players and trading a guy who wants to come here and hasn't even played a single game...that is bad ju ju.

ingram didnt come here because its Toronto, he came here cause we were willing to extend him.

Pelicans offered 4 years 160 million and BI turned it down...according to Marc Stein.

So no...he didn't come to Toronto just for the money.

I believe the thinking on Ingram's part is that he's going to revitalize his career playing here for two seasons, opt out in 2027, and sign a larger contract. In particular the Lakers are set up to have max cap space in 2027, if they don't get a player like Giannis in free agency they might be willing to throw a big contract at Ingram if he's coming off a season where he was healthy and putting up numbers. They will be desperate to get talent to put next to Luka in 2027, essentially he's looking to pull a Fred VanVleet and be a free agent at exactly the right time.

[bballsparkin]

ingram didnt come here because its Toronto, he came here cause we were willing to extend him.

This is true too. Plus, players usually don't mind getting traded to Phoenix. So maybe it's a nothing burger. Still would feel weird though.

[tsherkin]

He's not at the peak of his powers, but he's still an elite scorer who I think can be the go to guy in many in-game situations with the right supporting cast around him. If you're asking him to be one of the best defenders who takes all the shots, that's a recipe for disaster.

He's a good finisher, sure. But he's hella expensive and adds basically only scoring, that's the concern. Like, he'd help, but is he worth $50 mil a year plus the assets we have to give up, and then have to somehow make this a real contender?

Elite play finishing is one of the toughest skills to find so I'd say he'd be worth it from that standpoint, but it all depends on the cost.

There is no question that he has value as a play finisher. My concern is that he costs so much that it doesn't leave us a lot of room to add what we need beyond him to turn into a contender, because he isn't gonna be that level of player. As you say, it all depends on cost.

Durant was what, barely top 25 in O-EPM last year. he was like a 27/6/4, he's still an insane shooter, but he isn't a great playmaker or defender and we need so much to get ourselves into real contention, you know? And who would be left after that trade is a concern.

$50 mil is a lot, and whatever Phoenix wants for him... and then we still need a primary playmaker and to figure out what to do with our zillion forwards and our lack of anything in the frontcourt besides Yak (if he doesn't get traded), and like maybe Mogbo if we can get him going. But he's short. Anyway, now I'm rambling.

If we get a GOOD deal, then sure, maybe. But we have to be REALLY sure that we're building a legitimate contender, and that means we need a lot after just Durant, right?

[OakleyDokely]

He's a good finisher, sure. But he's hella expensive and adds basically only scoring, that's the concern. Like, he'd help, but is he worth $50 mil a year plus the assets we have to give up, and then have to somehow make this a real contender?

Elite play finishing is one of the toughest skills to find so I'd say he'd be worth it from that standpoint, but it all depends on the cost.

There is no question that he has value as a play finisher. My concern is that he costs so much that it doesn't leave us a lot of room to add what we need beyond him to turn into a contender, because he isn't gonna be that level of player. As you say, it all depends on cost.

Durant was what, barely top 25 in O-EPM last year. he was like a 27/6/4, he's still an insane shooter, but he isn't a great playmaker or defender and we need so much to get ourselves into real contention, you know? And who would be left after that trade is a concern.

$50 mil is a lot, and whatever Phoenix wants for him... and then we still need a primary playmaker and to figure out what to do with our zillion forwards and our lack of anything in the frontcourt besides Yak (if he doesn't get traded), and like maybe Mogbo if we can get him going. But he's short. Anyway, now I'm rambling.

If we get a GOOD deal, then sure, maybe. But we have to be REALLY sure that we're building a legitimate contender, and that means we need a lot after just Durant, right?

Masai already tried to get him before but wouldn't give up Barnes. I know he's older now, but if he can be acquired at a fair cost, I think Masai would be willing to shuffle around the roster to fill in the gaps around him.

Masai likes big names in general and wants to be linked with them. He puts a lot of importance on off the court buzz as well. He wants promote Toronto as a marquee market for big names.

[tsherkin]

Masai already tried to get him before but wouldn't give up Barnes. I know he's older now, but if he can be acquired at a fair cost, I think Masai would be willing to shuffle around the roster to fill in the gaps around him.

Right, right, but my point is we have huge gaps.

We were a raging dumpster fire on offense last year. Durant helps that but doesn't take us into elite territory. He's no kind of playmaker and we don't actually have a high-end playmaker on the team. And we're gonna have to give up some of our depth to get him. And then we have a lot of fairly mediocre scorers on our team, and some weak defenders. We lack interior presence. We sucked ass on the defensive glass. We were the second-worst FT shooting team in the league. 6th-worst team making shots inside the arc, 23rd in 3P%.

Health and KD and BI and what-not will help these things, but we're digging out of a big hole. Going from THAT to becoming an authentic contender is a humongous move, and it's going to be very challenging to both acquire Durant and then still have enough left over to fix this team and put it into a space where it can beat anyone. It isn't 2016 anymore, you know?

[OakleyDokely]

Masai already tried to get him before but wouldn't give up Barnes. I know he's older now, but if he can be acquired at a fair cost, I think Masai would be willing to shuffle around the roster to fill in the gaps around him.

Right, right, but my point is we have huge gaps.

We were a raging dumpster fire on offense last year. Durant helps that but doesn't take us into elite territory. He's no kind of playmaker and we don't actually have a high-end playmaker on the team. And we're gonna have to give up some of our depth to get him. And then we have a lot of fairly mediocre scorers on our team, and some weak defenders. We lack interior presence. We sucked ass on the defensive glass. We were the second-worst FT shooting team in the league. 6th-worst team making shots inside the arc, 23rd in 3P%.

Health and KD and BI and what-not will help these things, but we're digging out of a big hole. Going from THAT to becoming an authentic contender is a humongous move, and it's going to be very challenging to both acquire Durant and then still have enough left over to fix this team and put it into a space where it can beat anyone. It isn't 2016 anymore, you know?

I edited my post late, but I also wouldn't discount the off court appeal of acquiring a big name talent like KD. Masai always mentions the fact that Toronto is a global city and he wants it be a destination for the best players. There is some of that here.

The east is quite weak overall, so even with some key weakness on the roster, a core of KD/Ingram/Barnes/IQ is still probably top 4-5 in the east. So you don't need to figure everything out before the season starts. You have until the trade deadline to evaluate and target different guys.

[rapsincr]

not sure if this has been posted or goes in this thread..
trade talk starts about 19:30


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[Scase]

Ya we're definitely missing out on both KD and Giannis...

I'm like 85% sure we go into next season with the same lineup... + our rookies

I think we'll go after a tier 2/3 player who will cost a lot less. Someone in the Trae, Lamelo, Markkennen range.

At that point, why bother, we have a team full of those guys.

[tsherkin]

I edited my post late, but I also wouldn't discount the off court appeal of acquiring a big name talent like KD. Masai always mentions the fact that Toronto is a global city and he wants it be a destination for the best players. There is some of that here.

Sure... but we still have to be able to make it work logistically to acquire the next piece. It's a good team, but that isn't salient to this specific conversation. It would be a fun team for a year or two, but the only reason you get an old man like Durant is that you want to chase a title right now.

The east is quite weak overall, so even with some key weakness on the roster, a core of KD/Ingram/Barnes/IQ is still probably top 4-5 in the east. So you don't need to figure everything out before the season starts. You have until the trade deadline to evaluate and target different guys.

That doesn't smell like a contender to me at all, to be honest. That's a major player away from being a contender.

Yes, you have until the deadline but that creates limitations as well. Time to build chemistry, for example, to figure out how you're gonna do, etc.

I'm leery of it. Giannis, that makes sense. KD? It'd make us better for a bit but, only so much. And it puts some cuffs on us trying to get THERE, you know? Like, if we want to exit in the second round, maybe make the ECFs once? Sure. Cool. Then where are we?

[tsherkin]

At that point, why bother, we have a team full of those guys.

Who do we have as good as Trae?

[OakleyDokely]

I edited my post late, but I also wouldn't discount the off court appeal of acquiring a big name talent like KD. Masai always mentions the fact that Toronto is a global city and he wants it be a destination for the best players. There is some of that here.

Sure... but we still have to be able to make it work logistically to acquire the next piece. It's a good team, but that isn't salient to this specific conversation. It would be a fun team for a year or two, but the only reason you get an old man like Durant is that you want to chase a title right now.

The east is quite weak overall, so even with some key weakness on the roster, a core of KD/Ingram/Barnes/IQ is still probably top 4-5 in the east. So you don't need to figure everything out before the season starts. You have until the trade deadline to evaluate and target different guys.

That doesn't smell like a contender to me at all, to be honest. That's a major player away from being a contender.

Yes, you have until the deadline but that creates limitations as well. Time to build chemistry, for example, to figure out how you're gonna do, etc.

I'm leery of it. Giannis, that makes sense. KD? It'd make us better for a bit but, only so much. And it puts some cuffs on us trying to get THERE, you know? Like, if we want to exit in the second round, maybe make the ECFs once? Sure. Cool. Then where are we?

Given the state of the east, I don't think you can't rule out a finals appearance with a couple follow up moves. They probably wouldn't be the favorite against a CLE or IND, but they'd have a fighting chance against anyone. And if that's the case, the deal would be worth it, depending on cost.

Giannis is for sure the first option but if he's not traded Masai probably turns to plan B, C, D. It's also very possible they just make their picks at 9/39, add a MLE player and head into the season with what they got.

[ForeverTFC]

If Garland is actually available, we should be going after him.

[tsherkin]

Given the state of the east, I don't think you can't rule out a finals appearance. They probably wouldn't be the favorite against a CLE or IND, but they'd have a fighting chance against anyone. And if that's the case, the deal would be worth it, depending on cost.

I'd be pretty staggered if that team beat Cleveland or Indiana, to be honest. And we won't be the only team making moves. I'd be 50/50 on us beating the Knicks. Defensive issues, still have scoring issues, health issues... eh. Not loving it, especially with what it does to us going forward.

And even if we did make the Finals, which I doubt, there's no way we're beating OKC or Denver or the Clippers, probably not even the Wolves. It just isn't a really compelling team.

Giannis is for sure the first option but if he's not traded Masai probably turns to plan B, C, D. It's also very possible they just make their picks at 9/39, add a MLE player and head into the season with what they got.

Sans Giannis, that last option sounds a lot smarter to me, to be honest.

EDIT: Sans Giannis, this just isn't our moment.

[NinjaBro]

I would not mind Lamelo or Markanen one bit.

[Tha Cynic]

Ya we're definitely missing out on both KD and Giannis...

I'm like 85% sure we go into next season with the same lineup... + our rookies

I think we'll go after a tier 2/3 player who will cost a lot less. Someone in the Trae, Lamelo, Markkennen range.

At that point, why bother, we have a team full of those guys.

We don't have many of those type of guys. Barnes is the only one who fits that range as an overall player.

I'm typically not a fan of the Trae Young, or Lamelo types, but in today's NBA those guys can actually be successful with the right type of serious and defense around them. Raptors had a defense close to what the Pacers and Knicks had in the regular season, but their offense wasn't anywhere close obviously.

Adding a Durant or one of those 3 should improve the offense drastically, along with Ingram. The only issue is that you can't let the defense fall, as much as people like to scream about this being an offensive era. The top teams are still playing great defense. I think Durant is the best target here, but you need to to get a defensive 5 who can hit freethrows to balance it and another defensive guard/small 3.

If you can somehow get Lamelo, or Trae while keeping all of Barnes, Ingram, Poeltl and Quickley, that's a significant boost for the offense, but i doubt the Hornets/Hawks would give them up for just picks and I have no idea how good Ingram will be as a defender here.

[ForeverTFC]

Ya we're definitely missing out on both KD and Giannis...

I'm like 85% sure we go into next season with the same lineup... + our rookies

I think we'll go after a tier 2/3 player who will cost a lot less. Someone in the Trae, Lamelo, Markkennen range.

At that point, why bother, we have a team full of those guys.

Asset accumulation is never a bad thing if the price is right. E.g. Ingram for a late 1st and expiring.

Also, I don't think we have anyone like Lamelo or Markannen and I'd take them in a heartbeat.

[Tacoma]

ingram didnt come here because its Toronto, he came here cause we were willing to extend him.

Pelicans offered 4 years 160 million and BI turned it down...according to Marc Stein.

So no...he didn't come to Toronto just for the money.

I believe the thinking on Ingram's part is that he's going to revitalize his career playing here for two seasons, opt out in 2027, and sign a larger contract. In particular the Lakers are set up to have max cap space in 2027, if they don't get a player like Giannis in free agency they might be willing to throw a big contract at Ingram if he's coming off a season where he was healthy and putting up numbers. They will be desperate to get talent to put next to Luka in 2027, essentially he's looking to pull a Fred VanVleet and be a free agent at exactly the right time.

Exactly this! NOP offered 4 yrs while TOR offered 3 yrs, both offers at $40/yr. That extra year is the guaranteed money left on the table, which, given BI's injury history is a risky bet. but much as FVV did, BI is betting on himself. It's clearly about the money. It's almost always about money.

The 3rd yr of his TOR contract is a player option which coincides with projected increase in salary cap in 2027-28 by >$30 million. Then, if everything goes right for him, he'll opt out in two years at 29, still relatively young, for that one big beautiful payday.

[bboyskinnylegs]

so Garland just had toe surgery and will be out for 4-5 months. Not sure what effect, if any, that has on his trade value.

[earthtone]

Pelicans offered 4 years 160 million and BI turned it down...according to Marc Stein.

So no...he didn't come to Toronto just for the money.

I believe the thinking on Ingram's part is that he's going to revitalize his career playing here for two seasons, opt out in 2027, and sign a larger contract. In particular the Lakers are set up to have max cap space in 2027, if they don't get a player like Giannis in free agency they might be willing to throw a big contract at Ingram if he's coming off a season where he was healthy and putting up numbers. They will be desperate to get talent to put next to Luka in 2027, essentially he's looking to pull a Fred VanVleet and be a free agent at exactly the right time.

Exactly this! NOP offered 4 yrs while TOR offered 3 yrs, both offers at $40/yr. That extra year is the guaranteed money left on the table, which, given BI's injury history is a risky bet. but much as FVV did, BI is betting on himself. It's clearly about the money. It's almost always about money.

The 3rd yr of his TOR contract is a player option which coincides with projected increase in salary cap in 2027-28 by >$30 million. Then, if everything goes right for him, he'll opt out in two years at 29, still relatively young, for that one big beautiful payday.

If he's in line for a big beautiful payday in two years, that's good for all sides. Means he's probably made an all-star team or two and the Raptors are a legit playoff team. I think all parties would be happy with that outcome

[TheGeneral99]

If Garland is actually available, we should be going after him.

Yep.

Crazy Cleveland is even open to trading him...25 years old all-star for a team that just won 64 games.