**NBA Draft Discussion 2025**

[twix2500]

I find many fans on here too often compare prospects/players to past Heat players just bc that's what they're most familiar with. It often seems lazy to me.

I definitely don't think Saraf and Dragic are identical prospects, at all. I was mostly referencing him as a familiar point of context as it seems most struggle to translate Euro production and prospecting to the NBA. But, it's pretty clear that there are some stylistic similarities to the type of floor game they play--how they prod a defense, focus on getting into the paint, success pushing in transition, etc. Saraf's transition FG% is over 60%. He gets into the paint to create FGAs more than any guard in this class after Harper and Fears. Def needs to finish better (just like Fears and Traore and most 19 year old guard prospects).

Definitely not apples to apples. I think people pretend Dragic was some athletic specimen when he won more with change of speed in short bursts paired with craft than he did with pure speed.

I do wonder what this board would be saying about Goran Dragic as a prospect 17 years ago...

I agree Dragic and Saraf are not similar talents. Many on here get caught up on looks. And recently bias of the old bad knee dragic when his IQ was peak not his physical attributes. Dragic had to become a shooter because he was starting to lose his speed. When Dragic was a prospect the key attribute that got him NBA attention was elite speed and his ability to finish. Also NBA offenses were different so how ie point guards were used is not how ie point guards are used today. Dragic was a weaker prospect prototype like John Wall, speed and running fullcourt. Saraf best attribute is his size like SGA, and the Balls. Luka would be the generational prototype like Magic. I don't like comparing generational talents to other players.

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He ain't Dragic, but the fact he's producing on a playoff team is about all I need to want him on the Heat. Let us fix his shot and he'll be Herro's running mate in a few seasons.

Traoe also seems to be adjusting and contributing to a veteran team, I'd be happy with him too. Get some elite speed at the 1 again finally.

His shooting needs to improve everywhere on the court not just the three

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[MettaWorldPanda]

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I don’t think anyone is saying that Saraf is an exact comparison to Dragic or Ginobili but when you see the game play how can’t you atleast see “flashes”? Or is it taboo to make any comparisons at all because it’s too lazy to compare lefty Euro’s who just might have similar game play? This is an NBA trainer btw not some Heat fan. I think the overall basketball scouting community is making the same assessment.

[twix2500]

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I don’t think anyone is saying that Saraf is an exact comparison to Dragic or Ginobili but when you see the game play how can’t you atleast see “flashes”? Or is it taboo to make any comparisons at all because it’s too lazy to compare lefty Euro’s who just might have similar game play? This is an NBA trainer btw not some Heat fan. I think the overall basketball scouting community is making the same assessment.

Ginobli?? Oh hell naw. Ginobli game and physical talent and skills was far superior than Dragic and Saraf.

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[MettaWorldPanda]

Impressive Saraf deep dive

https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/magic-8-ballers-ben-saraf-done-that

[twix2500]

Like Greg pointed out and I have no real problem with it is the best Foreign player comparison is Ricky Rubio.

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[MettaWorldPanda]

Like Greg pointed out and I have no real problem with it is the best Foreign player comparison is Ricky Rubio.

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That’s fine but stop belittling the Ginobili comparison

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[MettaWorldPanda]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DKcSpoOIkdj/?igsh=eHFwZDgwN2pxcXFs

Ben Saraf talking about the Ginobili comparison and how he also compares and looks up to Tyrese Haliburton.

[twix2500]

Now what i do like about Saraf is how low he tries to get when he dribble. That is a good sign of a good ceiling on a players ball handling.

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[twix2500]

Like Greg pointed out and I have no real problem with it is the best Foreign player comparison is Ricky Rubio.

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That’s fine but stop belittling the Ginobili comparison

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Naw Ginobli was a scorer with elite scoring talent that is no way Saraf game. That is not a good comparison. If it wasn't for being forced to fit with Spurs team he would of likely been a lead scorer on a contender.

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[twix2500]

My biggest concern about Saraf is that he is raw and don't see him contributing for a year or two. I do not think he is a plug and play. I just don't think the Heat are going to draft at a position that they need someone ready to play now a player that is not now ready. I think that is why Clayton is being talked about a lot for the Heat.

Saraf has to prove he can shoot. Adding another nonshooter is just not gonna work well.

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[MettaWorldPanda]

My biggest concern about Saraf is that he is raw and don't see him contributing for a year or two. I do not think he is a plug and play. I just don't think the Heat are going to draft at a position that they need someone ready to play now a player that is not now ready. I think that is why Clayton is being talked about a lot for the Heat.

Saraf has to prove he can shoot. Adding another nonshooter is just not gonna work well.

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I agree that Saraf needs to be treated like Jovic and that’s why i was suggesting trading for CJ McCollum or trading for a guard vet on a one year deal with Mitchell while Saraf is the 3rd guard learning off the bench.

[greg4012]

Like Greg pointed out and I have no real problem with it is the best Foreign player comparison is Ricky Rubio.

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That’s fine but stop belittling the Ginobili comparison

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Naw Ginobli was a scorer with elite scoring talent that is no way Saraf game. That is not a good comparison. If it wasn't for being forced to fit with Spurs team he would of likely been a lead scorer on a contender.

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Just for context. This is Ginobili's age 20 season stats playing in the Italian league (per 36): 20 points, 2.9 assists (2.6 turnovers), 3.7 rebounds, 4.2 stocks, 46% FG, 35% 3pt, 70% FT

Saraf and Rubio per 36 in age 18/19 seasons below:

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=ben-saraf--ricky-rubio

[lastb1ckman]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/66fnzXl5CpsPi8wKZzOw7f?si=g2tbfJujTLuOBN0VV9yQ6A
Rafael Barlowe talking about Nolan Traore and Ben Saraf.

[arusinov]

Here some throwback for fun

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Good reminder as to the time and patience it takes to get the value from most Guard prospects. Goran was drafted in 2008 as a 22 year old, coming off a season in the Slovenian League where he averaged 10 ppg and 3 assists in 28 mpg (shooting 50% FG, 27% from 3, 70% FT). Goran started his NBA career as a 22 year old rookie and it took until his age 25 season to be a double digit scorer in the NBA.

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=ben-saraf--goran-dragic

World wide scouting changed a lot since then - There's a lot less "hidden gems" that fall under the radar like that now days.

I do see a little Dragic In Saraf's game, I just whish he was a bit more quick and explosive. I think that's what set Dragic Apart.

They do share the shiftiness and body control.

It's not about hidden gems - Dragic is late boomer. In current Saraf's age he wasn't even remotely and distantly as good as Saraf now. As 18 y/o he would never get one minute in rotation of the team Saraf leads in points and assists right now.

When you say that Dragic is quicker you should also say that Saraf is taller, with much bigger frame, and also probably at least as good ball handler at 19 y/o as Dragic was in his prime.

When people speak about Saraf's athleticism I literally think they are talking about Gal Mekel or someone like him... Saraf's first step is quick. He is goto ISO scorer for good pro-team every time clock is running down. He is more of "above rim" player than large majority of European guards (he had some 20-25 dunk between Israel U18 and Ulm, some even in semi-traffic), and he has very good body control and elite deceleration.

[greg4012]

Good reminder as to the time and patience it takes to get the value from most Guard prospects. Goran was drafted in 2008 as a 22 year old, coming off a season in the Slovenian League where he averaged 10 ppg and 3 assists in 28 mpg (shooting 50% FG, 27% from 3, 70% FT). Goran started his NBA career as a 22 year old rookie and it took until his age 25 season to be a double digit scorer in the NBA.

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=ben-saraf--goran-dragic

World wide scouting changed a lot since then - There's a lot less "hidden gems" that fall under the radar like that now days.

I do see a little Dragic In Saraf's game, I just whish he was a bit more quick and explosive. I think that's what set Dragic Apart.

They do share the shiftiness and body control.

It's not about hidden gems - Dragic is late boomer. In current Saraf's age he wasn't even remotely and distantly as good as Saraf now. As 18 y/o he would never get one minute in rotation of the team Saraf leads in points and assists right now.

When you say that Dragic is quicker you should also say that Saraf is taller, with much bigger frame, and also probably at least as good ball handler at 19 y/o as Dragic was in his prime.

When people speak about Saraf's athleticism I literally think they are talking about Gal Mekel or someone like him... Saraf's first step is quick. He is goto ISO scorer for good pro-team every time clock is running down. He is more of "above rim" player than large majority of European guards (he had some 20-25 dunk between Israel U18 and Ulm, some even in semi-traffic), and he has very good body control and elite deceleration.

Glad you mentioned the ISO scoring. This chart always stood out to me with regards to Saraf operating in ISO scenarios:

Read on Twitter

[twix2500]

World wide scouting changed a lot since then - There's a lot less "hidden gems" that fall under the radar like that now days.

I do see a little Dragic In Saraf's game, I just whish he was a bit more quick and explosive. I think that's what set Dragic Apart.

They do share the shiftiness and body control.

It's not about hidden gems - Dragic is late boomer. In current Saraf's age he wasn't even remotely and distantly as good as Saraf now. As 18 y/o he would never get one minute in rotation of the team Saraf leads in points and assists right now.

When you say that Dragic is quicker you should also say that Saraf is taller, with much bigger frame, and also probably at least as good ball handler at 19 y/o as Dragic was in his prime.

When people speak about Saraf's athleticism I literally think they are talking about Gal Mekel or someone like him... Saraf's first step is quick. He is goto ISO scorer for good pro-team every time clock is running down. He is more of "above rim" player than large majority of European guards (he had some 20-25 dunk between Israel U18 and Ulm, some even in semi-traffic), and he has very good body control and elite deceleration.

Glad you mentioned the ISO scoring. This chart always stood out to me with regards to Saraf operating in ISO scenarios:

Read on Twitter

Can you tell me the specific game that he was used as an iso scorer?

[arusinov]

World wide scouting changed a lot since then - There's a lot less "hidden gems" that fall under the radar like that now days.

I do see a little Dragic In Saraf's game, I just whish he was a bit more quick and explosive. I think that's what set Dragic Apart.

They do share the shiftiness and body control.

It's not about hidden gems - Dragic is late boomer. In current Saraf's age he wasn't even remotely and distantly as good as Saraf now. As 18 y/o he would never get one minute in rotation of the team Saraf leads in points and assists right now.

When you say that Dragic is quicker you should also say that Saraf is taller, with much bigger frame, and also probably at least as good ball handler at 19 y/o as Dragic was in his prime.

When people speak about Saraf's athleticism I literally think they are talking about Gal Mekel or someone like him... Saraf's first step is quick. He is goto ISO scorer for good pro-team every time clock is running down. He is more of "above rim" player than large majority of European guards (he had some 20-25 dunk between Israel U18 and Ulm, some even in semi-traffic), and he has very good body control and elite deceleration.

Glad you mentioned the ISO scoring. This chart always stood out to me with regards to Saraf operating in ISO scenarios:

Read on Twitter

I don't know... are people actually watching Ulm's games if they don't see it? In last game Saraf was a bit in fouls trouble so he was sitting both in the end of 2nd and 3rd qtrs... But when Ulm got last possession with some 10-15 sec on clock - it was same thing both times. Ulm's coach subbed in Saraf with clear task: take the rock, get us points. First time, he beat his defender, got fouled, scored 2FTs, Second time, he beat his defender, got to the rim... and missed easy layup (no, it doesn't happen much, it just wasn't his good scoring game)

[greg4012]

Since we're in the midst of a bit of a deep dive on Ben Saraf, I wanted to better understand the context around his FIBA U18 Tournament MVP. From what I can gather, this is an annual FIBA European Championship for U18 players from all Euro nations that usually gets the best of the best. It has been going on for over 20 years.

Last year's U18 tournament included potential first round picks in this year's draft, including Noa Essengue, Kasparas Jakucionis, Nolan Traore, and Hugo Gonzalez.

While Israel came in 4th (?) in the tournament, Ben Saraf was named the MVP of the 7 game tournament putting up 28.1 ppg, 5 rpg, 5.3 apg (2.4 topg), and 5 stockspg while shooting 45% overall (36% 3pt on 6.7 3PA per game; 76% FT on 8 FTA per game). You can find his stats here: https://www.fiba.basketball/en/events/fiba-u18-eurobasket-2024/teams/israel/295661-ben-saraf

The next highest scorer in the tournament was at 21.6 ppg.

From my count, over the past 20 years only 28 players have averaged over 20 ppg in this FIBA U18 tournament and Ben Saraf's 28 ppg was the highest of them all.

During this span, the following NBA players have all taken part in this tournament:

Nikola Topic (15 ppg & 5 apg)
Tidjaune Salaun
Santi Aldama (18 ppg)
Franz Wagner (13 ppg)
Alperen Sengun (11.9 ppg)
Sekou Dombouya (17.8 ppg)
Isaiah Hartenstein (14.7 ppg)
Frank Ntilinkina (15 ppg)
Lauri Markkannen (18.2 ppg)
Furkan Korkmaz (16.1 ppg)
Ivica Zubac (15.8 ppg)
Domantas Sabonis (15.9 ppg)
Dario Saric (25.6 ppg)
Jonas Valanciunas (19.4 ppg)
Davis Bertans (~15 ppg)
Evan Fournier (12.4 ppg)
Enes Kanter (19.1 ppg)
Kostas Koufos (26.5 ppg)
Ricky Rubio (19.1 ppg & 5 apg)
Omri Casspi (21.4 ppg)
Nic Batum (14.3 ppg)

You can look thru the tournament stat history here: https://www.fiba.basketball/en/history/263-fiba-u18-eurobasket

Definitely an impressive data point for Saraf. Doesn't mean everything, but it means something to see him operate as a high level scorer among the best of his age group throughout Europe (and see how that compares contextually to other NBA players). In particular, I appreciate seeing the good 3pt shooting for this stretch and wonder if he was playing more of a SG role in this tourney and thus allowed to hunt some more perimeter looks offball.

I think I'm trending towards buying into Saraf as a similar and slightly better prospect than Nikola Topic from last year (chosen 12th by OKC)

[greg4012]

It's not about hidden gems - Dragic is late boomer. In current Saraf's age he wasn't even remotely and distantly as good as Saraf now. As 18 y/o he would never get one minute in rotation of the team Saraf leads in points and assists right now.

When you say that Dragic is quicker you should also say that Saraf is taller, with much bigger frame, and also probably at least as good ball handler at 19 y/o as Dragic was in his prime.

When people speak about Saraf's athleticism I literally think they are talking about Gal Mekel or someone like him... Saraf's first step is quick. He is goto ISO scorer for good pro-team every time clock is running down. He is more of "above rim" player than large majority of European guards (he had some 20-25 dunk between Israel U18 and Ulm, some even in semi-traffic), and he has very good body control and elite deceleration.

Glad you mentioned the ISO scoring. This chart always stood out to me with regards to Saraf operating in ISO scenarios:

Read on Twitter

Can you tell me the specific game that he was used as an iso scorer?

I wish I could. TBH I have questions about the data behind the chart (like how many points scored, points per possession, assists out of iso, etc), unfortunately I don't have answers on that. Just collecting tidbits and aiming to make sense of them.

[MettaWorldPanda]

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40 point game vs Serbia