Tom Thibodeau fired pt 2

[WuTang_CMB]

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belongs in coaching search thread. -JVG

[Jeff Van Gully]

Personality makes life more enjoyable for sure but I think - if Thibs at the very least played 11 guys all season and allowed a brillant offensive
assistant coach to help him with offense. That would have been acceptable for the team.

We just saw a video where Charlie Villanova confirmed a lot of times the assistant coach is more of the head coach than the actually head coach.

This is why I say bring me Bryant!

but no one has an 11-man rotation. let alone as a minimum baseline. why would we expect that much as a minimum baseline for thibs?

10+situational is the max you're going to see in the most modern and creative of rotations.

not suggesting it shouldn't be the case. just saying it isn't.

The elite teams do...I was spot checking during the season. Just look at how many guys the final two teams have played that lasted.

you talking about rotations? because i don't see that.

if you're talking about occasional situational and garbage time, yeah. you might see 11 or more then. but the set rotation, 11 at minimum... never seen that.

your point of expanding is clear. 8-9 might be too little these days. 9-10 might be a sweet spot. 10 and situational is very conservative. 11-13 doesn't happen as far as regulars. please do share where you've seen otherwise.

[Dave_R]

Here's the bottom line on Thibs.
What would Popovich or another good coach do if they had KAT being guarded by a guy 6'8"? RIGHT, every play would run through them in the post.
What would those coaches do if they had OG being guarded by 6'3" Nembhard? Same answer.
What would YOU do if you were playing on the playground and were being guarded by a guy 4" or 5" shorter than you? Same answer.
I'm 6'0". If I'm playing pickup ball and guarding a guy 6'4", I'd be very happy if he got the ball at the 3 point line (that's what KAT and OG did vs. Indiana).
What did Thibs do? He ran his offense without any adjustments.

[Context]

but no one has an 11-man rotation. let alone as a minimum baseline. why would we expect that much as a minimum baseline for thibs?

10+situational is the max you're going to see in the most modern and creative of rotations.

not suggesting it shouldn't be the case. just saying it isn't.

The elite teams do...I was spot checking during the season. Just look at how many guys the final two teams have played that lasted.

you talking about rotations? because i don't see that.

if you're talking about occasional situational and garbage time, yeah. you might see 11 or more then. but the set rotation, 11 at minimum... never seen that.

your point of expanding is clear. 8-9 might be too little these days. 9-10 might be a sweet spot. 10 and situational is very conservative. 11-13 doesn't happen as far as regulars. please do share where you've seen otherwise.

JVG...I'm serious about what I'm saying...its clear to me that Indy and OKC have 10 to 11 guys that they can put in an important game and TRUST
that those players will perform. Thibs has never had that. Me personally, I'm the type of person who goes for the over kill. Rather have too much than too little. Especially when youre trying to take out the best. The sweet spot is over kill

[Jeff Van Gully]

Gilbert areans amoung other former nba players in a discussion said that NO nba player -no matter how conditioned he is, can run back and forth for more than 3 minutes. Thats why teams go on runs.
The modern day league covers many miles. This is why in the begining our Knicks were #1 in offense and in the end they were essential 500 in wins and losses.
This is the basic fundamental of basketball. It doesnt matter what schemes you run- you cant out last teams that are playing 11 guys or even 10 guys.
We played 7 all year- for the most part.

this is another tweak of the margins. if you want to say 8-9 or 8 and situational was too little, not gonna contest that. saying we went 7 all year is just hot takes taking hold.

we def went 7 often in the postseason. but regular season we had 8 and a situational and periods of 9. 7 was some extreme trying to win scenarios. and even OKC did that when they came back to beat us. they went like 8 that day with situationals. it happens.

but all season long the 8-man rotation was the starters plus cam payne and either deuce or shamet depending on health, and whatever big was available. we didn't balance the roster to have a wing in there and even as a thibs supporter i felt we should have had 9. (2 guards, wing, big.) but 7 was just not the norm.

[Jeff Van Gully]

The elite teams do...I was spot checking during the season. Just look at how many guys the final two teams have played that lasted.

you talking about rotations? because i don't see that.

if you're talking about occasional situational and garbage time, yeah. you might see 11 or more then. but the set rotation, 11 at minimum... never seen that.

your point of expanding is clear. 8-9 might be too little these days. 9-10 might be a sweet spot. 10 and situational is very conservative. 11-13 doesn't happen as far as regulars. please do share where you've seen otherwise.

JVG...I'm serious about what I'm saying...its clear to me that Indy and OKC have 10 to 11 guys that they can put in an important game and TRUST
that those players will perform. Thibs has never had that. Me personally, I'm the type of person who goes for the over kill. Rather have too much than too little. Especially when youre trying to take out the best. The sweet spot is over kill

ok, then we talking about different things.

yes. OKC deserves all the credit in the world for having that many players who can play if called upon. i been following them. i'd take it further and say they have 14 guys they can and have turned to. i also agree with using your whole roster that way. but those guys go in and out of the rotation.

and we did not do that. if that's what you're saying, no argument from me.

that's different from what i was saying about rotation and if you didn't mean formal rotation, then my point is certainly not valid. because if we're talking rotations, i'd say both teams in the finals have 10. and Cleveland at times had 11 but was also generally 9-10 but with much more trusting minutes distribution than the knicks. because even when the knicks did go 8 and 9, thibs still prioritized heavy minutes for the starters.

[Jeff Van Gully]

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please put this in the coaching search thread. not here.

[Context]

Gilbert areans amoung other former nba players in a discussion said that NO nba player -no matter how conditioned he is, can run back and forth for more than 3 minutes. Thats why teams go on runs.
The modern day league covers many miles. This is why in the begining our Knicks were #1 in offense and in the end they were essential 500 in wins and losses.
This is the basic fundamental of basketball. It doesnt matter what schemes you run- you cant out last teams that are playing 11 guys or even 10 guys.
We played 7 all year- for the most part.

this is another tweak of the margins. if you want to say 8-9 or 8 and situational was too little, not gonna contest that. saying we went 7 all year is just hot takes taking hold.

we def went 7 often in the postseason. but regular season we had 8 and a situational and periods of 9. 7 was some extreme trying to win scenarios. and even OKC did that when they came back to beat us. they went like 8 that day with situationals. it happens.

but all season long the 8-man rotation was the starters plus cam payne and either deuce or shamet depending on health, and whatever big was available. we didn't balance the roster to have a wing in there and even as a thibs supporter i felt we should have had 9. (2 guards, wing, big.) but 7 was just not the norm.

we had runs of 7/8 tops for the most part...so for example when mitch got going then we didnt see Precious...what we saw was Cam, Deuce, Hart, Mitch, Kat, Brunson, Mikal, OG...and Cam probably had 5 minutes
I would look but I'm over it JVG.

If you look at both teams rosters- I'm looking at how many of those guys can the coach count on for productive minutes:
https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401766123
Based on the way Thibs handled our players. There were 8 max...

[Jeff Van Gully]

Gilbert areans amoung other former nba players in a discussion said that NO nba player -no matter how conditioned he is, can run back and forth for more than 3 minutes. Thats why teams go on runs.
The modern day league covers many miles. This is why in the begining our Knicks were #1 in offense and in the end they were essential 500 in wins and losses.
This is the basic fundamental of basketball. It doesnt matter what schemes you run- you cant out last teams that are playing 11 guys or even 10 guys.
We played 7 all year- for the most part.

this is another tweak of the margins. if you want to say 8-9 or 8 and situational was too little, not gonna contest that. saying we went 7 all year is just hot takes taking hold.

we def went 7 often in the postseason. but regular season we had 8 and a situational and periods of 9. 7 was some extreme trying to win scenarios. and even OKC did that when they came back to beat us. they went like 8 that day with situationals. it happens.

but all season long the 8-man rotation was the starters plus cam payne and either deuce or shamet depending on health, and whatever big was available. we didn't balance the roster to have a wing in there and even as a thibs supporter i felt we should have had 9. (2 guards, wing, big.) but 7 was just not the norm.

we had runs of 7/8 tops for the most part...so for example when mitch got going then we didnt see Precious...what we saw was Cam, Deuce, Hart, Mitch, Kat, Brunson, Mikal, OG...and Cam probably had 5 minutes
I would look but I'm over it JVG.

If you look at both teams rosters- I'm looking at how many of those guys can the coach count on for productive minutes:
https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401766123
Base on the way Thibs handled our players. There were 8 max...

ok. so you're not really talking about the formal rotations. you're talking about the trusted players. yeah, i have no contest for that. it was pretty clear.

and to that point, i'd agree that we have more than 8 players who could be trusted. and the thibs approach of only trusting them when he has to is part of why he's gone.

[Context]

this is another tweak of the margins. if you want to say 8-9 or 8 and situational was too little, not gonna contest that. saying we went 7 all year is just hot takes taking hold.

we def went 7 often in the postseason. but regular season we had 8 and a situational and periods of 9. 7 was some extreme trying to win scenarios. and even OKC did that when they came back to beat us. they went like 8 that day with situationals. it happens.

but all season long the 8-man rotation was the starters plus cam payne and either deuce or shamet depending on health, and whatever big was available. we didn't balance the roster to have a wing in there and even as a thibs supporter i felt we should have had 9. (2 guards, wing, big.) but 7 was just not the norm.

we had runs of 7/8 tops for the most part...so for example when mitch got going then we didnt see Precious...what we saw was Cam, Deuce, Hart, Mitch, Kat, Brunson, Mikal, OG...and Cam probably had 5 minutes
I would look but I'm over it JVG.

If you look at both teams rosters- I'm looking at how many of those guys can the coach count on for productive minutes:
https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401766123
Base on the way Thibs handled our players. There were 8 max...

ok. so you're not really talking about the formal rotations. you're talking about the trusted players. yeah, i have no contest for that. it was pretty clear.

and to that point, i'd agree that we have more than 8 players who could be trusted. and the thibs approach of only trusting them when he has to is part of why he's gone.

I think thats at the core of Thibs issues that he would need to resolve if he found a way to reinvent himself. How can he expand his TRUST process.

[HopelessKnick]

Excellent post bro...
A post like this should be enough to sway the pro Thibs side to the it was time to move on from thibs side. Sadly it wont...

"He is so locked into the game he does not understand wtf is going on." ----kind of mirrors what Bridges said during the season and explains why you never see any type of adjustment. I'm just happy we are trying something new....

me too...when I watch the OKC and Indy Finals- I think to myself- wtf was Thibs thinking?! how did he think it was ok to play 7 guys for so long?
How does a coach who understand everything about basketball get so locked into his ego that he's in the play-offs playing 7 guys...how does he miss that in order to scor 120 points a game you have to put more miles on the body and 7 guys cant sustain that for 98 games when other teams are defending every possession and picking you up 64+ feet?!
Absolute craziness..

Yeah and I personally certainly don't even qualify as a Thibs hater----you won't find a single negative post of mine during his first 4 years. But when I saw in November/december that he is indeed proceeding to play a 7,5 man rotation basically throughout the season I really stepped back and re-evaluated my views on him. As a fan that probably does not even have 1% of Thibs' basketball knowledge I could tell that playing 7 guys against the top teams who typically go 9-11 man deep is just madness. Even if you are the "more talented team" ....if the other team manages to integrate 2-3 additional decent guys, they will erase any sort of talent gap. Energy, freshness etc. definitely is super important, especially late in the season and the playoffs.

His approach really left me dissapointed. It was poised to fail and it is sad that we lost against a team we definitely could and should have beat. Yes the Pacers are a good basketball team. But the only thing elite about them is their coach and that was enough to beat us in the end.

Let's start fresh now....

[HopelessKnick]

this is another tweak of the margins. if you want to say 8-9 or 8 and situational was too little, not gonna contest that. saying we went 7 all year is just hot takes taking hold.

we def went 7 often in the postseason. but regular season we had 8 and a situational and periods of 9. 7 was some extreme trying to win scenarios. and even OKC did that when they came back to beat us. they went like 8 that day with situationals. it happens.

but all season long the 8-man rotation was the starters plus cam payne and either deuce or shamet depending on health, and whatever big was available. we didn't balance the roster to have a wing in there and even as a thibs supporter i felt we should have had 9. (2 guards, wing, big.) but 7 was just not the norm.

we had runs of 7/8 tops for the most part...so for example when mitch got going then we didnt see Precious...what we saw was Cam, Deuce, Hart, Mitch, Kat, Brunson, Mikal, OG...and Cam probably had 5 minutes
I would look but I'm over it JVG.

If you look at both teams rosters- I'm looking at how many of those guys can the coach count on for productive minutes:
https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401766123
Base on the way Thibs handled our players. There were 8 max...

ok. so you're not really talking about the formal rotations. you're talking about the trusted players. yeah, i have no contest for that. it was pretty clear.

and to that point, i'd agree that we have more than 8 players who could be trusted. and the thibs approach of only trusting them when he has to is part of why he's gone.

I think it became more and more apparent that he would stick to 7,5 guys overall. Payne felt like he would sometimes play him 8 minutes just to be able to say: "I'm playing an 8 man rotation, not 7." ...basically as a means to shut the discussion. It is also a bit sad that no one in the organization could talk some sense into him. I picture Bridges' made that last ditch effort which ultimately wasn't fruitful. That's what that other article described as Thibs' non-negotiable, stubborn personality. My way or the highway.

Precious, Shamet, Wright are certainly no world beaters but as a 8th, 9th and 10th man? Playing 10-15 minutes? Come on now.
Not only that but you have to figure in the opportunity cost of playing the starters so heavily THROUGHOUT the entire season. I mean you don't need to be Einstein to understand that that does not bode well late in the season. For anyone doubting that---just take a look at the careers of Parker, Ginobili and Duncan in San Antonio and how many minutes they played...you will be surprised. Like Parker and Ginobili even during their primes averaged barely around 30minutes.

[Context]

"He is so locked into the game he does not understand wtf is going on." ----kind of mirrors what Bridges said during the season and explains why you never see any type of adjustment. I'm just happy we are trying something new....

me too...when I watch the OKC and Indy Finals- I think to myself- wtf was Thibs thinking?! how did he think it was ok to play 7 guys for so long?
How does a coach who understand everything about basketball get so locked into his ego that he's in the play-offs playing 7 guys...how does he miss that in order to scor 120 points a game you have to put more miles on the body and 7 guys cant sustain that for 98 games when other teams are defending every possession and picking you up 64+ feet?!
Absolute craziness..

Yeah and I personally certainly don't even qualify as a Thibs hater----you won't find a single negative post of mine during his first 4 years. But when I saw in November/december that he is indeed proceeding to play a 7,5 man rotation basically throughout the season I really stepped back and re-evaluated my views on him. As a fan that probably does not even have 1% of Thibs' basketball knowledge I could tell that playing 7 guys against the top teams who typically go 9-11 man deep is just madness. Even if you are the "more talented team" ....if the other team manages to integrate 2-3 additional decent guys, they will erase any sort of talent gap. Energy, freshness etc. definitely is super important, especially late in the season and the playoffs.

His approach really left me dissapointed. It was poised to fail and it is sad that we lost against a team we definitely could and should have beat. Yes the Pacers are a good basketball team. But the only thing elite about them is their coach and that was enough to beat us in the end.

Let's start fresh now....

me too
It's funny that you just described my experience as well

[MrDollarBills]

dont waste your time listening...Thibs became the dysfunction and we moved on from it.

This team had issues stemming from Game 1 onwards and once the scouting report hit, those issues were even more glaring.

I don't know what will happen, but it seems to me that ownership and the front office, along with the players, made a collective decision to change course.

Collective decision. Not everything based on the whims of one person.

30 million dollars is a lot of money. You don't make that decision haphazardly.

People are also forgetting that we were a Cam Payne outburst and a few insane KAT shots from being down 3-1 to DET. That series was hella close and I think that's when they were like ok we need to take a deeper look.

Right. Context matters.

We also consistently kept going down by huge deficits.

[MrDollarBills]

Kidd was never the choice. The funny thing is this same thing happened before Leon hired Thibodeau and people are still falling for it now.

These "interviews" are similar to free agents going to dinners with multiple organizations, when they already know where they're going to sign. It's all theater.

The next head coach is going to be Johnnie Bryant.

If they’re poisoning the Kidd-Dallas well while targeting Bryant, that’s 4D chess. Devilishly dirty. I love it. Dallas is a slimy, petty organization.

With news coming out of Kidd possibly getting an extension from the Mavs, it could've been Leon letting Kidd use the Knicks as leverage to get the extension.

Leon knows how the game is played.

[MrDollarBills]

"He is so locked into the game he does not understand wtf is going on." ----kind of mirrors what Bridges said during the season and explains why you never see any type of adjustment. I'm just happy we are trying something new....

me too...when I watch the OKC and Indy Finals- I think to myself- wtf was Thibs thinking?! how did he think it was ok to play 7 guys for so long?
How does a coach who understand everything about basketball get so locked into his ego that he's in the play-offs playing 7 guys...how does he miss that in order to scor 120 points a game you have to put more miles on the body and 7 guys cant sustain that for 98 games when other teams are defending every possession and picking you up 64+ feet?!
Absolute craziness..

Yeah and I personally certainly don't even qualify as a Thibs hater----you won't find a single negative post of mine during his first 4 years. But when I saw in November/december that he is indeed proceeding to play a 7,5 man rotation basically throughout the season I really stepped back and re-evaluated my views on him. As a fan that probably does not even have 1% of Thibs' basketball knowledge I could tell that playing 7 guys against the top teams who typically go 9-11 man deep is just madness. Even if you are the "more talented team" ....if the other team manages to integrate 2-3 additional decent guys, they will erase any sort of talent gap. Energy, freshness etc. definitely is super important, especially late in the season and the playoffs.

His approach really left me dissapointed. It was poised to fail and it is sad that we lost against a team we definitely could and should have beat. Yes the Pacers are a good basketball team. But the only thing elite about them is their coach and that was enough to beat us in the end.

Let's start fresh now....

Yeah ultimately I feel like you do.

Last two years I thought Tom did a really good job. I do admit, i saw some stubbornness and slow adjustments, but nothing to the extent of this year. Like when we hit December I thought things just started to go in the wrong direction....you cannot do what he did. It was malpractice.

Tom is a flawed coach but I will never say that he is a bad one. He has his philosophy and view, and the honest truth is that I don't think it was the correct fit for this personnel.

[MrDollarBills]

This seems tone pattern with him. He’s so smart and works so hard, but eventually he can’t last long at any of his gigs. It must be in his personality to do this. Pop and some other great coaches had incredibly long runs.

Personality makes life more enjoyable for sure but I think - if Thibs at the very least played 11 guys all season and allowed a brillant offensive
assistant coach to help him with offense. That would have been acceptable for the team.

We just saw a video where Charlie Villanova confirmed a lot of times the assistant coach is more of the head coach than the actually head coach.

This is why I say bring me Bryant!

but no one has an 11-man rotation. let alone as a minimum baseline. why would we expect that much as a minimum baseline for thibs?

10+situational is the max you're going to see in the most modern and creative of rotations.

not suggesting it shouldn't be the case. just saying it isn't.

Yeah true, 8 to 9 a night is ideal. You crack it open to 10-11 on back to backs.

The hope is we get Year 2 Kolek and Hukporti as rotational back ups and someone that can back up either OG or Mikal consistently.

It sucks that Shamet and Wright are probably gone.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Personality makes life more enjoyable for sure but I think - if Thibs at the very least played 11 guys all season and allowed a brillant offensive
assistant coach to help him with offense. That would have been acceptable for the team.

We just saw a video where Charlie Villanova confirmed a lot of times the assistant coach is more of the head coach than the actually head coach.

This is why I say bring me Bryant!

but no one has an 11-man rotation. let alone as a minimum baseline. why would we expect that much as a minimum baseline for thibs?

10+situational is the max you're going to see in the most modern and creative of rotations.

not suggesting it shouldn't be the case. just saying it isn't.

Yeah true, 8 to 9 a night is ideal. You crack it open to 10-11 on back to backs.

The hope is we get Year 2 Kolek and Hukporti as rotational back ups and someone that can back up either OG or Mikal consistently.

It sucks that Shamet and Wright are probably gone.

i mean, i'm good with 9-10 on the regular if it's the right guys. never was averse to that. we get a coach who can make it work, go for it.

i want shamet back. ideal cheap wing. unless he played himself into more money somehow, i don't see why we wouldn't be looking to bring him back for the same scale. hungry and home.

shoot. delon is tail end of career but crafty all around and talented defensively. i think of both these guys as more veteran versions of the way daignault uses the wallaces and wigginses of the world. (though they shoot much better than wright. we just can't have expectations of him being a true 3 and d.)

and unless they get packaged, next coach will probably play kolek and hukporti. i imagine even thibs was there (especially if we consolidated talent even more).

[ctorres]

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[thebuzzardman]

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Knicks reached out to the Instead Institute.

Want another coach INSTEAD of Thibs.