Official 2024-2025 Magic Trade ideas thread continued

[Skybox]

Garland's surgery makes me even more interested...listening to Windhorst pod this morning and it was mentioned that this injury has been dogging him for months, he consulted multiple docs and tried to tough it out, but wasn't himself.

His salary is a big issue, but could be managed. I won't give Suggs for him and CLE might not capitulate, but even a healthy Mitchell/Garland backcourt is as misguided as KCP/Suggs, just in the other direction. A healthy Garland is an offensive monster.

KCP (21.6m), Goga (8.3m), AB (8m), ORL 26 frp swap, unprotected), ORL 28 frp (Top 3)

Garland (39.5m)

*I hate giving up AB, but we have to be serious about returning value and he'll be due a good bump next summer. We will have to make tough decisions about fringe guys as we elevate our starting lineup to be among the best in the NBA and young. We retain both frps which we use for mature depth players on low deals...Moe will have to be declined and, hopefully, re-upped on a friendlier deal (or, he'll be an unfortunate casualty of grabbing an All-Star PG). Sending Goga allows CLE to shop Allen for a solid haul at the same time (could also make it WCJ - who is actually a great fit next to Mobley, imo- as well as backing him up at C).

#16 Nique Clifford...imo, immediately replaces AB's contribution and more
#25 Maxime Raynaud

take swings with srps...Powell, Avdalis, Nembhard, Proctor...

[eyriq]

Reducing Paolo and Franz’s playmaking kills two things at once: a key advantage over other wings and valuable developmental reps. The offense has a shooting problem, not a playmaking one, and tossing out a wing-hub build for some guard-centric preference is short-sighted. Unless you’re bringing in an all-star, the move makes the team worse. AB is the point guard of the future, pairing him with a true scoring threat will unlock the whole thing.

[89Magicfan]

Reducing Paolo and Franz’s playmaking kills two things at once: a key advantage over other wings and valuable developmental reps. The offense has a shooting problem, not a playmaking one, and tossing out a wing-hub build for some guard-centric preference is short-sighted. Unless you’re bringing in an all-star, the move makes the team worse. AB is the point guard of the future, pairing him with a true scoring threat will unlock the whole thing.

You seem to have this notion that bringing in a player who has the ability to make plays takes the ball completely out of their hands. I don’t know where you come up with this. I know you’ve been around the game long enough.

It’s not reducing. It’s becoming more efficient. Do you know why Fultz didn’t work? Wasn’t because he had the ball in his hands and made plays. It’s because he never took a damn 3 (and his injuries)

We need a shooter yes, but he has to be able to make plays as well.

[jezzerinho]

Reducing Paolo and Franz’s playmaking kills two things at once: a key advantage over other wings and valuable developmental reps. The offense has a shooting problem, not a playmaking one, and tossing out a wing-hub build for some guard-centric preference is short-sighted. Unless you’re bringing in an all-star, the move makes the team worse. AB is the point guard of the future, pairing him with a true scoring threat will unlock the whole thing.

Given that we started CoJo, a roster depth point guard, in the playoffs - who is a career 6pts per game player (against bench oppo) - tells you enough that Mosley flat out disagrees with you.

Flat out and unequivocally. So if you won't take our word for it and sullenly stick to this fantasy more every time we show you why not, at least believe the respected head coach of the franchise - who chose a shîtty on-ball initiating guard over a better scorer in Anthony over a better shooter in Jett or Houstan and over your point-god Black (who is talented but whose game appears destined for the wing).

Hell, hit Mose up and ask him. Save us all more months of this nonsense. Even with a point/combo guard at the helm, Franz and Paolo will be the usage leaders. Both will still initiate, both will still iso. Just not so much, more efficiently and against a better-spread floor.

The coach has already decided this.

[eyriq]

Reducing Paolo and Franz’s playmaking kills two things at once: a key advantage over other wings and valuable developmental reps. The offense has a shooting problem, not a playmaking one, and tossing out a wing-hub build for some guard-centric preference is short-sighted. Unless you’re bringing in an all-star, the move makes the team worse. AB is the point guard of the future, pairing him with a true scoring threat will unlock the whole thing.

Given that we started CoJo, a roster depth point guard, in the playoffs - who is a career 6pts per game player (against bench oppo) - tells you enough that Mosley flat out disagrees with you.

Flat out and unequivocally. So if you won't take our word for it and sullenly stick to this fantasy more every time we show you why not, at least believe the respected head coach of the franchise - who chose a shîtty on-ball initiating guard over a better scorer in Anthony over a better shooter in Jett or Houstan and over your point-god Black (who is talented but whose game appears destined for the wing).

Hell, hit Mose up and ask him. Save us all more months of this nonsense. Even with a point/combo guard at the helm, Franz and Paolo will be the usage leaders. Both will still initiate, both will still iso. Just not so much, more efficiently and against a better-spread floor.

The coach has already decided this.

If starting CoJo is your proof, you’ve already lost the plot. That was a short-term patch, not a long-term vision. Using it to argue against a wing-led offense is not just lazy, it’s backward.

[jezzerinho]

Reducing Paolo and Franz’s playmaking kills two things at once: a key advantage over other wings and valuable developmental reps. The offense has a shooting problem, not a playmaking one, and tossing out a wing-hub build for some guard-centric preference is short-sighted. Unless you’re bringing in an all-star, the move makes the team worse. AB is the point guard of the future, pairing him with a true scoring threat will unlock the whole thing.

Given that we started CoJo, a roster depth point guard, in the playoffs - who is a career 6pts per game player (against bench oppo) - tells you enough that Mosley flat out disagrees with you.

Flat out and unequivocally. So if you won't take our word for it and sullenly stick to this fantasy more every time we show you why not, at least believe the respected head coach of the franchise - who chose a shîtty on-ball initiating guard over a better scorer in Anthony over a better shooter in Jett or Houstan and over your point-god Black (who is talented but whose game appears destined for the wing).

Hell, hit Mose up and ask him. Save us all more months of this nonsense. Even with a point/combo guard at the helm, Franz and Paolo will be the usage leaders. Both will still initiate, both will still iso. Just not so much, more efficiently and against a better-spread floor.

The coach has already decided this.

If starting CoJo is your proof, you’ve already lost the plot. That was a short-term patch, not a long-term vision. Using it to argue against a wing-led offense is not just lazy, it’s backward.

Ok. As you were then. You'll see when it happens I guess.

[Knightro]

Reducing Paolo and Franz’s playmaking kills two things at once: a key advantage over other wings and valuable developmental reps. The offense has a shooting problem, not a playmaking one, and tossing out a wing-hub build for some guard-centric preference is short-sighted. Unless you’re bringing in an all-star, the move makes the team worse. AB is the point guard of the future, pairing him with a true scoring threat will unlock the whole thing.

[tiderulz]

Garland's surgery makes me even more interested...listening to Windhorst pod this morning and it was mentioned that this injury has been dogging him for months, he consulted multiple docs and tried to tough it out, but wasn't himself.

His salary is a big issue, but could be managed. I won't give Suggs for him and CLE might not capitulate, but even a healthy Mitchell/Garland backcourt is as misguided as KCP/Suggs, just in the other direction. A healthy Garland is an offensive monster.

KCP (21.6m), Goga (8.3m), AB (8m), ORL 26 frp swap, unprotected), ORL 28 frp (Top 3)

Garland (39.5m)

*I hate giving up AB, but we have to be serious about returning value and he'll be due a good bump next summer. We will have to make tough decisions about fringe guys as we elevate our starting lineup to be among the best in the NBA and young. We retain both frps which we use for mature depth players on low deals...Moe will have to be declined and, hopefully, re-upped on a friendlier deal (or, he'll be an unfortunate casualty of grabbing an All-Star PG). Sending Goga allows CLE to shop Allen for a solid haul at the same time (could also make it WCJ - who is actually a great fit next to Mobley, imo- as well as backing him up at C).

#16 Nique Clifford...imo, immediately replaces AB's contribution and more
#25 Maxime Raynaud

take swings with srps...Powell, Avdalis, Nembhard, Proctor...

Cleveland was just the #1 seed in the east. They arent trading their starting PG that avg'd 20/7 for KCP a late pick and a pick swap. If they are trading Garland, they will want someone that is contributing now, and not KCP who plays the same position as Mitchell

[tiderulz]

Reducing Paolo and Franz’s playmaking kills two things at once: a key advantage over other wings and valuable developmental reps. The offense has a shooting problem, not a playmaking one, and tossing out a wing-hub build for some guard-centric preference is short-sighted. Unless you’re bringing in an all-star, the move makes the team worse. AB is the point guard of the future, pairing him with a true scoring threat will unlock the whole thing.

i disagree. without the playmaking, you have players getting the ball 30 ft away with 3 seconds left. and that will play into bad shooting, but we have no one helping players get any easy baskets. part of that is offensive scheme, part is lack of playmakers. and AB right now is not a playmaker.

[pepe1991]

Oh no, that transending wing-playmaking that got us so many great things on offense like...offensive rating worst than 21-61 team or 17-65 team, or helped us reach goals like: worst shooting team of decade, or second lowest efficiency team in nba.

How can we ever recover?

[Idiosyncratic]

Reducing Paolo and Franz’s playmaking kills two things at once: a key advantage over other wings and valuable developmental reps. The offense has a shooting problem, not a playmaking one, and tossing out a wing-hub build for some guard-centric preference is short-sighted. Unless you’re bringing in an all-star, the move makes the team worse. AB is the point guard of the future, pairing him with a true scoring threat will unlock the whole thing.

Both things are problems IMO. Can definitely have multiple problems on an offense that is as inept as the teams that are purposefully tanking.

Like pepe posted the list of guys we had shoot the most open 3s, Suggs, AB, TDS, Caldwell-Pope all near the top... Those ARE the role players you want shooting the open 3s on our team, the problem is none of them were are all that great at shooting. Maybe Gary over some of them? But he only shoots when he wants, guy doesn't even count.

I agree that a lot of the wide open looks are teams giving Wendell, Isaac and Franz space so that skews the number. But regardless Wendell should be over 23% on open 3s, it's ridiculous.

At the same time Paolo and Franz absolutely pound the air out of the ball at times and Paolo especially will not make any decision until the clock reaches 0. We definitely need another guy that can handle the ball and make some plays. And a guy that can hopefully help set them up at times because they struggle to play off each other due to both being crap shooters. We need their own shooting efficiency to tick up as well, not just their playmaking.

They aren't going to take the ball out of Paolo and Franz's hands by a huge margin no matter who they get IMO so we do have to hope they improve in that regard, but we definitely need more playmaking. Whether that guard they acquire will lean more toward scorer or playmaker we will see. But we also need more shooting, I don't know anyone can argue against that. Get a couple of players who can do a little bit of both (Melton/Monk/Simons/Naw/Jerome/Etc.) and see what happens. Or if the right star guard is available, I don't see why they shouldn't consider.

[eyriq]

Reducing Paolo and Franz’s playmaking kills two things at once: a key advantage over other wings and valuable developmental reps. The offense has a shooting problem, not a playmaking one, and tossing out a wing-hub build for some guard-centric preference is short-sighted. Unless you’re bringing in an all-star, the move makes the team worse. AB is the point guard of the future, pairing him with a true scoring threat will unlock the whole thing.

What, seemed like a good time to push some AB propaganda

[89Magicfan]

Oh no, that transending wing-playmaking that got us so many great things on offense like...offensive rating worst than 21-61 team or 17-65 team, or helped us reach goals like: worst shooting team of decade, or second lowest efficiency team in nba.

How can we ever recover?

What’s incredible is how he says CoJo was a patch and not long term vision yet it up ticked our offense in March considerably. Moses even commented, as well as Paolo, how CoJo was so important because he was getting guys the ball at the right spots and providing stability to the lineup.

[basketballRob]

Reducing Paolo and Franz’s playmaking kills two things at once: a key advantage over other wings and valuable developmental reps. The offense has a shooting problem, not a playmaking one, and tossing out a wing-hub build for some guard-centric preference is short-sighted. Unless you’re bringing in an all-star, the move makes the team worse. AB is the point guard of the future, pairing him with a true scoring threat will unlock the whole thing.

What, seemed like a good time to push some AB propaganda

AB has always made the playoffs. Kobe has 5 championships. How many will AB get?

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

[jezzerinho]

Oh no, that transending wing-playmaking that got us so many great things on offense like...offensive rating worst than 21-61 team or 17-65 team, or helped us reach goals like: worst shooting team of decade, or second lowest efficiency team in nba.

How can we ever recover?

What’s incredible is how he says CoJo was a patch and not long term vision yet it up ticked our offense in March considerably. Moses even commented, as well as Paolo, how CoJo was so important because he was getting guys the ball at the right spots and providing stability to the lineup.

The point was Mose acknowledged that a bargain barrel PG, who is a poor scorer, not only made us better, but made us better in the playoffs against the reigning champs.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

[VFX]

It’s amazing to me that there is a section of this fan base that regularly watches these games and claims that the entire issue with this team on offense is shooting.

These are people that think drafting McNeely or adding a 38 year old Klay Thompson will solve all of the issues with this offense.

The entire problem with this offense is on ball creation and ball movement on the perimeter. It doesn’t exist currently.

The offense is a complete slog because it relies on two total players to dribble into traffic for offense. Not only that, but those two guys have not yet developed tendencies to take shots from outside unless absolutely necessary as a reaction to how the game unfolds.

Shooting a basketball in 2025 isn’t a role as much as it’s a requirement. People here are dying on a hill because specific players aren’t good at one skill that the rest of the roster has to compensate. Yeah, that’s a terrible ideology to build a team around.

We are watching an nba finals currently where 95% of the guys on the court are able to shoot the basketball as well as do everything necessary positionally. This is easier for them because the entire floor is open.

[Fortune Teller]

Reducing Paolo and Franz’s playmaking kills two things at once: a key advantage over other wings and valuable developmental reps. The offense has a shooting problem, not a playmaking one, and tossing out a wing-hub build for some guard-centric preference is short-sighted. Unless you’re bringing in an all-star, the move makes the team worse. AB is the point guard of the future, pairing him with a true scoring threat will unlock the whole thing.

I'm not even sure if you're serious any more.

"key advantage" -- to having the worst offense in the NBA?

"developmental reps" -- for who? Paolo and Franz? The only guys who touch the ball on offense anyway?

"AB is the point guard of the future" -- really you're still doing this? The same AB who had ZERO assists in 5 playoff games?

[Skybox]

Garland's surgery makes me even more interested...listening to Windhorst pod this morning and it was mentioned that this injury has been dogging him for months, he consulted multiple docs and tried to tough it out, but wasn't himself.

His salary is a big issue, but could be managed. I won't give Suggs for him and CLE might not capitulate, but even a healthy Mitchell/Garland backcourt is as misguided as KCP/Suggs, just in the other direction. A healthy Garland is an offensive monster.

KCP (21.6m), Goga (8.3m), AB (8m), ORL 26 frp swap, unprotected), ORL 28 frp (Top 3)

Garland (39.5m)

*I hate giving up AB, but we have to be serious about returning value and he'll be due a good bump next summer. We will have to make tough decisions about fringe guys as we elevate our starting lineup to be among the best in the NBA and young. We retain both frps which we use for mature depth players on low deals...Moe will have to be declined and, hopefully, re-upped on a friendlier deal (or, he'll be an unfortunate casualty of grabbing an All-Star PG). Sending Goga allows CLE to shop Allen for a solid haul at the same time (could also make it WCJ - who is actually a great fit next to Mobley, imo- as well as backing him up at C).

#16 Nique Clifford...imo, immediately replaces AB's contribution and more
#25 Maxime Raynaud

take swings with srps...Powell, Avdalis, Nembhard, Proctor...

Cleveland was just the #1 seed in the east. They arent trading their starting PG that avg'd 20/7 for KCP a late pick and a pick swap. If they are trading Garland, they will want someone that is contributing now, and not KCP who plays the same position as Mitchell

Wrong...Mitchell and Garland have massive overlap, which is why this has come up every offseason...almost as marginalizing a match as Suggs/KCP who are also a foolish pairing with redundancies and gaps in skillsets. CLE could certainly flip those picks for a win-now player and KCP is still a very formidable SG who doesn't (won't) have the ball in his hands. Suggs, when healthy, overshadows KCP. Mitchell's excellence has consistently compromised Garland's game as well...and Garland is WAY too good and expensive to be hidden like that. This is Dame/CJ all over again...redundant strengths, shared weaknesses.

[Skybox]

What, seemed like a good time to push some AB propaganda

AB has always made the playoffs. Kobe has 5 championships. How many will AB get?

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

The heavy-set lawyer superfan who sits next to the bench has made just as many playoff appearances as AB and had nearly the same impact.

[eyriq]

Reducing Paolo and Franz’s playmaking kills two things at once: a key advantage over other wings and valuable developmental reps. The offense has a shooting problem, not a playmaking one, and tossing out a wing-hub build for some guard-centric preference is short-sighted. Unless you’re bringing in an all-star, the move makes the team worse. AB is the point guard of the future, pairing him with a true scoring threat will unlock the whole thing.

Both things are problems IMO. Can definitely have multiple problems on an offense that is as inept as the teams that are purposefully tanking.

Like pepe posted the list of guys we had shoot the most open 3s, Suggs, AB, TDS, Caldwell-Pope all near the top... Those ARE the role players you want shooting the open 3s on our team, the problem is none of them were are all that great at shooting. Maybe Gary over some of them? But he only shoots when he wants, guy doesn't even count.

I agree that a lot of the wide open looks are teams giving Wendell, Isaac and Franz space so that skews the number. But regardless Wendell should be over 23% on open 3s, it's ridiculous.

At the same time Paolo and Franz absolutely pound the air out of the ball at times and Paolo especially will not make any decision until the clock reaches 0. We definitely need another guy that can handle the ball and make some plays. And a guy that can hopefully help set them up at times because they struggle to play off each other due to both being crap shooters. We need their own shooting efficiency to tick up as well, not just their playmaking.

They aren't going to take the ball out of Paolo and Franz's hands by a huge margin no matter who they get IMO so we do have to hope they improve in that regard, but we definitely need more playmaking. Whether that guard they acquire will lean more toward scorer or playmaker we will see. But we also need more shooting, I don't know anyone can argue against that. Get a couple of players who can do a little bit of both (Melton/Monk/Simons/Naw/Jerome/Etc.) and see what happens. Or if the right star guard is available, I don't see why they shouldn't consider.

Totally fair. I think most of this is spot on, especially the idea that multiple things can be true. The only thing I’d push back on is treating Franz and Paolo holding the ball too long as a cause rather than a symptom. When spacing collapses and no one can hit a shot, the clock drains by default. Fix the shooting and some of that iso slop disappears on its own.