RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated

[djsunyc]

He's Corey Maggette reborn.

You don't win with those type of players unless he's coming off the bench.

rj started for a team that made it to the 2nd round. he was also the best player on the team that lost to finals bound jimmy butler heat despite being 3rd in the pecking order.

You're never going to win a title with RJ as a starting wing.

There's nothing to debate.

win a title and win are 2 different things.

[tsherkin]

We care.
Salaries matter.
It all matters.
That's how you build championships.

That's nice.

His salary isn't going to change this year, so if we wait a couple months to see what we've got, it won't actually change our financial situation. His finances aren't materially relevant to that notion.

[James_Raptors]

We care.
Salaries matter.
It all matters.
That's how you build championships.

That's nice.

His salary isn't going to change this year, so if we wait a couple months to see what we've got, it won't actually change our financial situation. His finances aren't materially relevant to that notion.

You know, if you rarely budge on points that are constantly debunked, simply because you cannot admit how often you're wrong (discussing hoops), then people will simply disengage having rational, logical conversations with you about basketball.

Just something you might want to digest.

[tsherkin]

You know, if you rarely budge on points that are constantly debunked, simply because you cannot admit how often you're wrong (discussing hoops), then people will simply disengage having rational, logical conversations with you about basketball.

Just something you might want to digest.

And you might want to read what I'm actually writing and treat with that instead of making adjacent points which aren't what I said. That would be helpful, and create less contention between us. *shrug*

I agree that RJ's finances are problematic for the long-term, but the entire time, I have been discussing how interested I am in seeing what he can do for us inside a given frame of parameters. Going outside what I said doesn't change what I said.

[Basketball_Jones]

I mean, if we draft someone like Kon you’d certainly go with the sharpshooting younger no defense guy over the slightly older no defense guy that can’t shoot that well. But we aren’t really at this cross road yet. People are projecting what hasn’t happened or may not happen.

[James_Raptors]

You know, if you rarely budge on points that are constantly debunked, simply because you cannot admit how often you're wrong (discussing hoops), then people will simply disengage having rational, logical conversations with you about basketball.

Just something you might want to digest.

And you might want to read what I'm actually writing and treat with that instead of making adjacent points which aren't what I said. That would be helpful, and create less contention between us. *shrug*

I agree that RJ's finances are problematic for the long-term, but the entire time, I have been discussing how interested I am in seeing what he can do for us inside a given frame of parameters. Going outside what I said doesn't change what I said.

Re-reading non valid points, that are all too often devoid of actual credible basketball knowledge is nonsensical at best.
You seem to enjoy arguing and don't know a whole lot about basketball, that's the gist of it.
I apologize if there's more information lurking under the hood, and you're just saving the good stuff for later.

[earthtone]

I mean, if we draft someone like Kon you’d certainly go with the sharpshooting younger no defense guy over the slightly older no defense guy that can’t shoot that well. But we aren’t really at this cross road yet. People are projecting what hasn’t happened or may not happen.

Would you though? Kon is a better shooter, I’ll give him that, but RJ is leagues above as a driver/shot-creator & playmaker imo.

His defence also took a leap this year, I think he’s closer to average than ‘no defence’, and still has room to grow into a +defender

[nivisi9]

He's exceeded expectations, but you also can't just handwave away the concept of efficiency.

Unless I'm misunderstanding that "30 players to put up 20/5/5" stat, it really doesn't say as much as you might hope. Aside from the whole idea that that is some meaningful threshold of counting stats (it isn't), that indicates that most NBA teams will produce a 20/5/5 player, almost by default. That role is available on pretty much every team, and if you don't care about efficiency or defense, RJ can fill it.

He can be the 1st/2nd option on a terrible team. Can he be the 3rd/4th option on a good one? That's where I have my doubts. The idea of him as a 6th man is interesting, but it would actually have to happen successfully to give him credit for it.

As for his contract, it's not some albatross, but it certainly isn't good. 66th highest paid player in the league, but I wouldn't put him particularly close to 66th best. Again, the simplest of analysis (30 teams) would suggest that he'd be the 3rd best player on most teams, and I think that's clearly not true. How many playoff teams would he start on?

If anything, despite the negativity, he's probably still overrated. He has a kind of star profile as a high draft pick, key player for Team Canada, and a "20/5/5" guy, but he's just... not that good? It doesn't mean he's terrible, and he's probably closer to being an All-Star than being out of the league, but realistically he's not close to either. He's just a dude that's kind of okay and might top out at a DeRozan/Lavine level of impact. These guys don't suck, I just don't think they have a place on good teams.

This is the correct answer for those who don't get it.

[tsherkin]

Re-reading non valid points, that are all too often devoid of actual credible basketball knowledge is nonsensical at best.
You seem to enjoy arguing and don't know a whole lot about basketball, that's the gist of it.
I apologize if there's more information lurking under the hood, and you're just saving the good stuff for later.

I feel like you're reading way more into what I wrote about RJ than is actually there, and being hostile for no sensible reason.

The boiled-down version of my point, which I HAVE stated quite clearly a few times, is that I'd like to see what he looks like with the team we're going into the season with before moving him. Where you are coming from with your comments on my posts doesn't really line up for me, not really sure what you're on about, to be honest.

Anyway, we can both get on with our lives, since I suspect nothing productive will come of this, so cheers.

[James_Raptors]

He's exceeded expectations, but you also can't just handwave away the concept of efficiency.

Unless I'm misunderstanding that "30 players to put up 20/5/5" stat, it really doesn't say as much as you might hope. Aside from the whole idea that that is some meaningful threshold of counting stats (it isn't), that indicates that most NBA teams will produce a 20/5/5 player, almost by default. That role is available on pretty much every team, and if you don't care about efficiency or defense, RJ can fill it.

He can be the 1st/2nd option on a terrible team. Can he be the 3rd/4th option on a good one? That's where I have my doubts. The idea of him as a 6th man is interesting, but it would actually have to happen successfully to give him credit for it.

As for his contract, it's not some albatross, but it certainly isn't good. 66th highest paid player in the league, but I wouldn't put him particularly close to 66th best. Again, the simplest of analysis (30 teams) would suggest that he'd be the 3rd best player on most teams, and I think that's clearly not true. How many playoff teams would he start on?

If anything, despite the negativity, he's probably still overrated. He has a kind of star profile as a high draft pick, key player for Team Canada, and a "20/5/5" guy, but he's just... not that good? It doesn't mean he's terrible, and he's probably closer to being an All-Star than being out of the league, but realistically he's not close to either. He's just a dude that's kind of okay and might top out at a DeRozan/Lavine level of impact. These guys don't suck, I just don't think they have a place on good teams.

This is the correct answer for those who don't get it.

Yup, CPT absolutely nailed it.

[James_Raptors]

Re-reading non valid points, that are all too often devoid of actual credible basketball knowledge is nonsensical at best.
You seem to enjoy arguing and don't know a whole lot about basketball, that's the gist of it.
I apologize if there's more information lurking under the hood, and you're just saving the good stuff for later.

I feel like you're reading way more into what I wrote about RJ than is actually there, and being hostile for no sensible reason.

The boiled-down version of my point, which I HAVE stated quite clearly a few times, is that I'd like to see what he looks like with the team we're going into the season with before moving him. Where you are coming from with your comments on my posts doesn't really line up for me, not really sure what you're on about, to be honest.

Anyway, we can both get on with our lives, since I suspect nothing productive will come of this, so cheers.

It would've been much easier if you had said (in our conversations) that you really didn't care about his statical history, deficiencies as a player and salary because you were 100% committed to "see what he looks like". For example, it would explain why you "don't care" than RJ is the 66th highest paid player in basketball right now even though he's best suited as a 6th man on a serious roster, which would make him very overpaid. Or even the simple fact that if we start this NBA season without trading him, RJ's stock (trade value) is effected by said decision. It's not as simple as plugging your ears and going la-la-la I can't hear you. There's an actual trickle down affect to this. For example you cannot use RJ (who most agree doesn't fit here talent wise or salary) as salary ballast in a trade this summer. You don't seem to acknowledge that these decisions aren't made in a vacuum, just because "tsherkin" wants to buck the trend and see how things go.

I mean, if your stance is "I don't care what anyone tells me, I'm standing behind RJ right now , no matter what" then what's the point in even discussing him with anyone outside of your echo chamber? You don't care about statical analysis or salary, so what's left, "cool he's Canadian!" ?

But these conversations with you haven't just been about RJ. You claimed Bradley Beal was better than any player on our entire roster. And when proven to be demonstrably incorrect, not just by me, but others, you hold firm on the titanic. I could give other examples, but clearly you get my point. It comes across as disingenuous to a logical fruitful hoops discussion when you just keep arguing future hypotheticals that buck trend while simultaneously watch facts and statistics circle down the drain.

But I appreciate your stance if you'd prefer not talking hoops.
It definitely looks like we approach this type of conversation quite differently, so it's probably for the best.
You have yourself an excellent rest of your day tsherkin.
Cheers.

[bobbyp3588]

He's Corey Maggette reborn.

You don't win with those type of players unless he's coming off the bench.

Lazy and ridiculous thinking.

lol

just say you don't get it.

Pat yourself on the back infinitum for your ingenious comparison for all I care.

Just know, coming from someone who has watched him play live at least a half dozen times back in the day, that the only real similarity between Corey Magette and RJ Barrett is that they both were great at bullying smaller guards and getting to the basket and they’re both decent rebounders for their position. RJ’s handle and play making ability really sets them apart.

You do you though.

[tsherkin]

Aside from 32 games in 23/24, his TS% has been well below league average. Especially hurts when he's a high usage player. His team defense is awful. If he wasn't drafted 3rd overall, he'd be coming off the bench already at this stage of career.

So this is certainly true. The main thing that was going on in that stretch is that he'd really limited his shooting attempts outside of 10 feet, and indeed, outside of 3 feet. He was taking about 43% of his shots from the RA, basically not taking long 2s, and taking almost 30% of his shots from 3-10 feet, with the remainder coming from 3 (and about a third of those coming from the corner).

There were fairly specific parameters to what he looked like in that stretch. I think it's fair to say that he's got some pretty significant limitations, and as we move forward, he's not the guy. With Ingram incoming, Quick healthy again and maybe some life from Gradey/Walter, we do have some other options. And any sort of 3+D guy is a compelling replacement, though obviously the level of rim and foul pressure he applies still needs to be replaced somehow, or we're going to be primarily a jump shooting team without any other teeth. Finding guys who can apply that sort of pressure isn't easy, and while someone capably noted that BI's pretty good at drawing fouls, we still have to contend with his health and wonder how aggressive we want him to be if we're trying to maximize his GP.

The odds are stacked well against the idea of RJ suddenly "figuring it out" or majorly evolving his skill set at this point. And whilst we have had our disagreements otherwise, James_Raptors made a good point about his FT%:

And just for the record, 81.5% was the average FT% for SG's in 2025. The goal isn't to get RJ to reach the 70% plateau, that's still atrocious and laughable. He shoots poorly from FT, and mid-range and 3pt, because, like DeMar, he has gaping holes in his offensive game, and also defensive holes that are easily exploitable.

He's quite poor from the line, and was obviously a disaster this year, and has no mid-range shot. His 3 is a salvageable concept because he's pretty decent from the corners. Obviously, ATB isn't really worth considering. The point I'd been making about 70% wasn't that it was good, of course, it was it being more in-line with his career numbers and more workable as far as getting him to league-average efficiency if he's still on the roster.

So that's fair enough as a criticism; it has been a persistent weakness with him and hasn't really trended up much, either.

The notion with seeing what we have in RJ in this environment is more about seeing if we can get his value up for a month or two than anything else. If there's a really GOOD deal available before that, then obviously we have to take it, but otherwise?

[Indeed]

Most people are not underrating Barrett (maybe slightly), but most people are overrating Barnes and Ingram.

The previous lineup of Poeltl-Siakam-Barnes-Barrett-Quickley was being around average (or slightly above average) starting lineup, replacing Siakam with Ingram, would that be better? I feel it is at most average for starting lineup with Poeltl-Barnes-Ingram-Barrett-Quickley.

I still have Siakam being better than Ingram (most people here may disagree, but Siakam can play both ends) and Siakam was the better fit to Barnes (allow Barnes to play SF and get mismatch).

Now replacing Barrett with a defensive player with 3 point shooting is just plugging holes from one place to another, I do not believe Ingram and Quickley can get enough offense, while Barnes being below league average (role player level) on creating offense needs a massive leap for us to get ride of Barrett.

[tsherkin]

I still have Siakam being better than Ingram (most people here may disagree, but Siakam can play both ends) and Siakam was the better fit to Barnes (allow Barnes to play SF and get mismatch).

It's certainly a debate, though, isn't it? Siakam is also a pretty good isolation player and he can hit the three now, move the ball, defend, etc. Has availability which is more reliable. He's hit some All-NBA teams, has been an All-Star twice, it isn't an unthinkable comparison at all.

[James_Raptors]

Aside from 32 games in 23/24, his TS% has been well below league average. Especially hurts when he's a high usage player. His team defense is awful. If he wasn't drafted 3rd overall, he'd be coming off the bench already at this stage of career.

So this is certainly true. The main thing that was going on in that stretch is that he'd really limited his shooting attempts outside of 10 feet, and indeed, outside of 3 feet. He was taking about 43% of his shots from the RA, basically not taking long 2s, and taking almost 30% of his shots from 3-10 feet, with the remainder coming from 3 (and about a third of those coming from the corner).

There were fairly specific parameters to what he looked like in that stretch. I think it's fair to say that he's got some pretty significant limitations, and as we move forward, he's not the guy. With Ingram incoming, Quick healthy again and maybe some life from Gradey/Walter, we do have some other options. And any sort of 3+D guy is a compelling replacement, though obviously the level of rim and foul pressure he applies still needs to be replaced somehow, or we're going to be primarily a jump shooting team without any other teeth. Finding guys who can apply that sort of pressure isn't easy, and while someone capably noted that BI's pretty good at drawing fouls, we still have to contend with his health and wonder how aggressive we want him to be if we're trying to maximize his GP.

The odds are stacked well against the idea of RJ suddenly "figuring it out" or majorly evolving his skill set at this point. And whilst we have had our disagreements otherwise, James_Raptors made a good point about his FT%:

And just for the record, 81.5% was the average FT% for SG's in 2025. The goal isn't to get RJ to reach the 70% plateau, that's still atrocious and laughable. He shoots poorly from FT, and mid-range and 3pt, because, like DeMar, he has gaping holes in his offensive game, and also defensive holes that are easily exploitable.

He's quite poor from the line, and was obviously a disaster this year, and has no mid-range shot. His 3 is a salvageable concept because he's pretty decent from the corners. Obviously, ATB isn't really worth considering. The point I'd been making about 70% wasn't that it was good, of course, it was it being more in-line with his career numbers and more workable as far as getting him to league-average efficiency if he's still on the roster.

So that's fair enough as a criticism; it has been a persistent weakness with him and hasn't really trended up much, either.

The notion with seeing what we have in RJ in this environment is more about seeing if we can get his value up for a month or two than anything else. If there's a really GOOD deal available before that, then obviously we have to take it, but otherwise?

Excellent post.

[DreamTeam09]

He's exceeded expectations, but you also can't just handwave away the concept of efficiency.

Unless I'm misunderstanding that "30 players to put up 20/5/5" stat, it really doesn't say as much as you might hope. Aside from the whole idea that that is some meaningful threshold of counting stats (it isn't), that indicates that most NBA teams will produce a 20/5/5 player, almost by default. That role is available on pretty much every team, and if you don't care about efficiency or defense, RJ can fill it.

He can be the 1st/2nd option on a terrible team. Can he be the 3rd/4th option on a good one? That's where I have my doubts. The idea of him as a 6th man is interesting, but it would actually have to happen successfully to give him credit for it.

As for his contract, it's not some albatross, but it certainly isn't good. 66th highest paid player in the league, but I wouldn't put him particularly close to 66th best. Again, the simplest of analysis (30 teams) would suggest that he'd be the 3rd best player on most teams, and I think that's clearly not true. How many playoff teams would he start on?

If anything, despite the negativity, he's probably still overrated. He has a kind of star profile as a high draft pick, key player for Team Canada, and a "20/5/5" guy, but he's just... not that good? It doesn't mean he's terrible, and he's probably closer to being an All-Star than being out of the league, but realistically he's not close to either. He's just a dude that's kind of okay and might top out at a DeRozan/Lavine level of impact. These guys don't suck, I just don't think they have a place on good teams.

This is the correct answer for those who don't get it.

Yup, CPT absolutely nailed it.

What does this even mean, he's a 20 5 n 5 player but he's simply not that good? He's closer to being an AS than out of the league, wow what a wide range, but he's not close to either ? It just seems like y'all don't wanna give him his props because he's not the player y'all would like to have. If Toronto is a top 4-5 team he's definitely up for AS consideration

Garland made the AS game as a 20 n 6 player, Mobley at 18 n 9.

[DreamTeam09]

We all see the game completely different, I just don't understand why some may feel like they have to make definitive statements & leave no room for growth, interpretation, or grace for possibly being wrong. But hey this is a forum afterall...

[TheAlchemist23]

He's literally the definition of empty calories. Unathletic, not a good shoter, terrible defender. And only has 1 move.

[tsherkin]

Excellent post.

Thank you. Hopefully, without meaning to be snarky, that provides some clarity on my position.

What does this even mean, he's a 20 5 n 5 player but he's simply not that good? He's closer to being an AS than out of the league, wow what a wide range, but he's not close to either ? It just seems like y'all don't wanna give him his props because he's not the player y'all would like to have. If Toronto is a top 4-5 team he's definitely up for AS consideration

Garland made the AS game as a 20 n 6 player, Mobley at 18 n 9.

So, there are components to this beyond their raw box score averages.

All too regularly, people look at per-game averages and start salivating. But like I've said elsewhere, Ricky Davis has posted like this, and no one sane would be crowing about Ricky Davis. The trick with RJ is all in whether or not you believe he can improve with more strategic usage... and whether or not you care, given his other deficiencies, right?

RJ put up 21.1 ppg, 6.3 rpg and 5.4 apg in 32.2 mpg. He shot 46.8 / 35.0 / 63.0, and shot 52.2% inside the arc, taking 22.9% of his 3PA from the corners.

That was 54.7% TS (under 57.6% league average). He was a +0.7 O-EPM guy (109th in the league), -0.4 D-EPM (322nd in the league).

So go ahead and look at Garland and Mobley by comparison.

Mobley was a DPOY center, 28th in the league in D-EPM, and was a 22/11 guy per-36 on 63.3% TS.

Garland was a 40% 3pt shooter who was producing 6.7 apg in 30.7 mpg, and posted a 60% TS on the season while posting the 7th-highest O-EPM in the league.

These specific numbers aren't themselves the be-all, end-all, of course, but they do highlight a large gap between your selected players and Barrett.

Barrett was not comparable to these guys just because he was posting 21/6/5 raw.