Which of these PGs is greater?

[Doctor MJ]

Which of these PGs is greater

I voted Stockton.

Ranked list off the top of my head:

1. Stockton
2. Kidd
3. Isiah
4. Payton
5. Westbrook

Quite interesting that you have GP above Westbrook. What is your criteria for that?

Well it was an off-the-cuff list, but what was on my mind? Honestly, my list is largely sorted by BBIQ - as in the guys I feel most comfortable tossing the keys to to drive my team.

That's obviously way oversimplistic in terms of everything that goes into greatness, but it was certainly one thing I thought about.

[One_and_Done]

That's such a self evidently cherry picked way to compare them.

Just - dumb.

By position over the past 4+ decades PGs are responsible for more assists, steals, and turnovers than any other position. They are key criteria for a PG.

Westbrook on offense was far more responsible for his team not scoring on team possessions because of missed shots and turnovers than Payton, it's not even close. Plus Payton forced opponents into far more team possessions where they did not score than Westbrook did through steals and better defense.

What are you missing?

If you want to compare them on stats, do it over the same period

Work on your reading comprehension. That's exactly what I did. Same age range, 87% of one player's total minutes played versus 80% of another's.

I don't even need to look it up to know Payton gets killed.

You don't even know who Gary Payton is.

Really though you should only use prime years to compare them.

You compare them however you want. I used as much data that was available, within a similar age range.

You want to cherry pick and use a smaller data set to compare, knock yourself out.

But then you'd have to learn who Gary Payton was.

I wonder if things like games played affect total stats. It's obvious to everyone why you are using totals and not averages.

[kcktiny]

I wonder if things like games played affect total stats.

I wonder if you know too. Probably not.

It's obvious to everyone why you are using totals and not averages.

Hey Hubie Brown - go use averages. Make your case.

But then you might have to look up Gary Payton's stats.

Give it a try. It might be self evident.

[One_and_Done]

I wonder if things like games played affect total stats.

I wonder if you know too. Probably not.

It's obvious to everyone why you are using totals and not averages.

Hey Hubie Brown - go use averages. Make your case.

But then you might have to look up Gary Payton's stats.

Give it a try. It might be self evident.

I already know prime Westbrook bends GP over on per 100 stats.

[ceoofkobefans]

Since I saw about some arguments over GP and Russ and cherry picking stats here’s a comparison of a bunch of different stats between the two in their peaks

2015-17 Russ

228 GP
34.4 MPG
30.9 IA PTS/75 (27.7 PPG)
11 IA AST/75 (9.9 APG)
9.7 IA TRB/75 (8.7 RPG)
2.3 STK/75 (2.2 STK/75)
5.1 TOV/75 (4.7 TPG)
2.7 PF/75 (2.5 PFG)
54.8 TS% (+.4 rTS%)
66.2 O Load
51.7 AST%
8.3 Passer Rating
10.3 cTOV%
5.8 ORB%
21.5 DRB%
13.8 TRB%
3.3 STK%
26 OWS
11.8 DWS
37.8 WS
+7.4 OBPM
+1.7 DBPM
+9.1 BPM
+5.2 BP OBPM
+1.4 BP DPM
+6.6 BP BPM
+5 AuPM/g
+5.72 OPIPM
+.44 DPIPM
+6.16 PIPM
49.57 PIPM wins Added
+6.77 ORAPTOR
-.59 DRAPTOR
+6.18 RAPTOR
42.2 RAPTOR WAR

96-98 GP

245 GP
38.9 MPG
21.2 IA PTS/75 (20.1 PPG)
8 IA AST/75 (7.6 APG)
4.7 IA TRB/75 (4.5 RPG)
2.8 STK/75 (2.7 STK/g)
2.9 TOV/75 (2.9 TPG)
2.6 PF/75 (2.5 PFG)
54.8 TS% (+1.4 rTS%)
42.9 O Load
34.6 AST%
8.2 Box Creation
7.6 Passer Rating
9.1 cTOV%
3.7 ORB%
9.9 DRB%
6.9 TRB%
3.8 STK%
22.7 OWS
14.2 DWS
36.9 DWS
+3.9 OBPM
+1.2 DBPM
+5.1 BPM
+3.3 BP OBPM
+2 BP DBPM
+5.3 BP BPM
+4.4 AuPM/g
+3.56 OPIPM
+1 DPIPM
+4.56 PIPM
53.58 PIPM wins added
+4.66 ORAPTOR
+1.54 DRAPTOR
+6.2 RAPTOR
52.4 RAPTOR WAR

Thunder by year
2015: 45-37 (49-33 with Russ), +2.3 NRTG (+3.3) missed playoffs
2016: 55-27, +7.5 NRTG lost in WCF
2017: 47-35, +.8 NRTG lost in WC1

Sonics by year
64-18 +8.2 NRTG lost finals
57-25 +8.5 NRTG lost WCSF
61-21 +8 NRTG lost WCSF

Would like to make a note that Gary Payton had very clearly better teams than Russ did (especially in 15 and 17) in these stretches and the mid 90s had expansion inflation for NRTGs and record.

Russ has better pure box production, and decently better impact metrics, while Gary Payton’s teams performed better

Don’t think this is really close tbh but here’s some numbers at least

[Elpolo_14]

Since I saw about some arguments over GP and Russ and cherry picking stats here’s a comparison of a bunch of different stats between the two in their peaks

2015-17 Russ

228 GP
34.4 MPG
30.9 IA PTS/75 (27.7 PPG)
11 IA AST/75 (9.9 APG)
9.7 IA TRB/75 (8.7 RPG)
2.3 STK/75 (2.2 STK/75)
5.1 TOV/75 (4.7 TPG)
2.7 PF/75 (2.5 PFG)
54.8 TS% (+.4 rTS%)
66.2 O Load
51.7 AST%
8.3 Passer Rating
10.3 cTOV%
5.8 ORB%
21.5 DRB%
13.8 TRB%
3.3 STK%
26 OWS
11.8 DWS
37.8 WS
+7.4 OBPM
+1.7 DBPM
+9.1 BPM
+5.2 BP OBPM
+1.4 BP DPM
+6.6 BP BPM
+5 AuPM/g
+5.72 OPIPM
+.44 DPIPM
+6.16 PIPM
49.57 PIPM wins Added
+6.77 ORAPTOR
-.59 DRAPTOR
+6.18 RAPTOR
42.2 RAPTOR WAR

96-98 GP

245 GP
38.9 MPG
21.2 IA PTS/75 (20.1 PPG)
8 IA AST/75 (7.6 APG)
4.7 IA TRB/75 (4.5 RPG)
2.8 STK/75 (2.7 STK/g)
2.9 TOV/75 (2.9 TPG)
2.6 PF/75 (2.5 PFG)
54.8 TS% (+1.4 rTS%)
42.9 O Load
34.6 AST%
8.2 Box Creation
7.6 Passer Rating
9.1 cTOV%
3.7 ORB%
9.9 DRB%
6.9 TRB%
3.8 STK%
22.7 OWS
14.2 DWS
36.9 DWS
+3.9 OBPM
+1.2 DBPM
+5.1 BPM
+3.3 BP OBPM
+2 BP DBPM
+5.3 BP BPM
+4.4 AuPM/g
+3.56 OPIPM
+1 DPIPM
+4.56 PIPM
53.58 PIPM wins added
+4.66 ORAPTOR
+1.54 DRAPTOR
+6.2 RAPTOR
52.4 RAPTOR WAR

Thunder by year
2015: 45-37 (49-33 with Russ), +2.3 NRTG (+3.3) missed playoffs
2016: 55-27, +7.5 NRTG lost in WCF
2017: 47-35, +.8 NRTG lost in WC1

Sonics by year
64-18 +8.2 NRTG lost finals
57-25 +8.5 NRTG lost WCSF
61-21 +8 NRTG lost WCSF

Would like to make a note that Gary Payton had very clearly better teams than Russ did (especially in 15 and 17) in these stretches and the mid 90s had expansion inflation for NRTGs and record.

Russ has better pure box production, and decently better impact metrics, while Gary Payton’s teams performed better

Don’t think this is really close tbh but here’s some numbers at least

What would your list of these 5 PG look like? ( Peak and Career )

[ShaqAttac]

Russ or Jkidd prob.

[kcktiny]

I already know prime Westbrook bends GP over on per 100 stats.

Perhaps you should bend over, do some research, and learn how to evaluate defense.

Would like to make a note that Gary Payton had very clearly better teams than Russ did

Due in large part because (1) Payton was very clearly the better defender, and (2) was on the floor far more than Westbrook. Top 10 seasons for minutes played Payton averaged 3142 minutes, Westbrook just 2733 minutes. Having a great defender on the floor for 409 more minutes a season is a huge advantage.

[MiamiBulls]

Career:

1)John Stockton. 2) Isiah Thomas. 3) Jason Kidd. 4) Russell Westbrook. 5) Gary Payton

Peak:

1) Jason Kidd. 2) Russell Westbrook. 3) Gary Payton. 4) Isiah Thomas. 5) John Stockton (3-5 interchangeable)

[One_and_Done]

I already know prime Westbrook bends GP over on per 100 stats.

Perhaps you should bend over, do some research, and learn how to evaluate defense.

Would like to make a note that Gary Payton had very clearly better teams than Russ did

Due in large part because (1) Payton was very clearly the better defender, and (2) was on the floor far more than Westbrook. Top 10 seasons for minutes played Payton averaged 3142 minutes, Westbrook just 2733 minutes. Having a great defender on the floor for 409 more minutes a season is a huge advantage.

GP was a better defender than Westbrook, whose D was quite overrated. Westbrook in his prime remains the better player though, despite his overratedness. Being on the floor more is nice, but also has to be viewed in context too. GP would never play that many minutes in the modern game for one thing.

GP also relied on handchecking alot, which wouldn't be allowed today.

[kcktiny]

GP was a better defender than Westbrook

Payton was a far better defender than Westbrook.

Westbrook in his prime remains the better player though

Wrong. Not even close.

Westbrook has always been a turnover machine, and has always missed a ton of shots. You clearly do not understand the negative impact that has on winning games.

Want to complain about the era? Fine.

Just in the last 14 seasons compare Westbrook to Chris Paul:

Westbrook - 32844 min, 8168 ast, 3971 TOs, 9952 FGmissed, 21834 pts
Paul - 29846 min, 8271 ast, 2028 TOs, 6069 FGmissed, 15075 pts/g

Westbrook scored 31% more points, but missed 39% more shots, committed 49% more turnovers.

Being on the floor more is nice

Being on the floor more is everything. Payton on the floor 409 minutes more a season over an entire decade is like 10 more games at 40 min/g of a great defender and very good offensive player in Payton. That huge advantage puts Westbrook to shame.

but also has to be viewed in context too. GP would never play that many minutes in the modern game for one thing.

In the age range mentioned of 22-35 when Payton played (1990-91 to 2003-04) he played 40,768 minutes, more than any player in the league.

So there is every reason to believe that if he played the same years Westbrook did when he was the ages of 22-35 (2011-12 to 2024-25) that he would still play the most minutes, even if that is less minutes played than when he did actually play. These last 14 seasons Westbrook played the 4th most minutes among all players, but 3869 minutes less than the player that played the most (DeRozan).

No matter how you slice it Payton was clearly more valuable as a great defender and very good player on offense compared to Westbrook, plus he played far more minutes.

GP also relied on handchecking alot, which wouldn't be allowed today.

As if this comment has any relevance whatsoever?

All great backcourt defenders relied on handchecking back in the day, and they all adapted when handchecking was outlawed (but still used by some).

Name just one player who was a great defender that you can claim was no longer a great defender once handchecking was outlawed.

Great defenders adapt their games to the rules of the day, just as great offensive players do.

[One_and_Done]

GP was a better defender than Westbrook

Payton was a far better defender than Westbrook.

Westbrook in his prime remains the better player though

Wrong. Not even close.

Westbrook has always been a turnover machine, and has always missed a ton of shots. You clearly do not understand the negative impact that has on winning games.

Want to complain about the era? Fine.

Just in the last 14 seasons compare Westbrook to Chris Paul:

Westbrook - 32844 min, 8168 ast, 3971 TOs, 9952 FGmissed, 21834 pts
Paul - 29846 min, 8271 ast, 2028 TOs, 6069 FGmissed, 15075 pts/g

Westbrook scored 31% more points, but missed 39% more shots, committed 49% more turnovers.

Being on the floor more is nice

Being on the floor more is everything. Payton on the floor 409 minutes more a season over an entire decade is like 10 more games at 40 min/g of a great defender and very good offensive player in Payton. That huge advantage puts Westbrook to shame.

but also has to be viewed in context too. GP would never play that many minutes in the modern game for one thing.

In the age range mentioned of 22-35 when Payton played (1990-91 to 2003-04) he played 40,768 minutes, more than any player in the league.

So there is every reason to believe that if he played the same years Westbrook did when he was the ages of 22-35 (2011-12 to 2024-25) that he would still play the most minutes, even if that is less minutes played than when he did actually play. These last 14 seasons Westbrook played the 4th most minutes among all players, but 3869 minutes less than the player that played the most (DeRozan).

No matter how you slice it Payton was clearly more valuable as a great defender and very good player on offense compared to Westbrook, plus he played far more minutes.

GP also relied on handchecking alot, which wouldn't be allowed today.

As if this comment has any relevance whatsoever?

All great backcourt defenders relied on handchecking back in the day, and they all adapted when handchecking was outlawed (but still used by some).

Name just one player who was a great defender that you can claim was no longer a great defender once handchecking was outlawed.

Great defenders adapt their games to the rules of the day, just as great offensive players do.

Being on the floor more is usually bad actually, because you're more fatigued. It was an example of how suboptimally the NBA was run back then, and with all the extra ground players have no cover today it would never even be considered for the RS. It's a good way to get guys injured.

But yeh, I disagree with you completely. Here's their per 100 stats over their primes, if you want to do a raw stat comp:

Westbrook (12-20): per 100: 36/12/11 on 536 TS%
GP (94-02): per 100: 29/10/6 on 537 TS%

So stat wise it definitely isn't close when you look at their primes.

[trex_8063]

GP also relied on handchecking alot, which wouldn't be allowed today.

Arguably a questionable statement looking at the degree of above-waist physicality on the perimeter defense in the current NBA finals; but even if right…..

Why does this matter? Like what tangible (measurable) affect does hand checking have on the opposing offense?

[kcktiny]

Being on the floor more is usually bad actually, because you're more fatigued.

Says who, you? The reason great players are able to play heavy minutes is because they don't get fatigued.

Another one of your supposedly factual statements that has no basis in fact.

1995-96 to 2001-02 the 7 seasons Payton averaged playing 40 min/g the Sonics had the 4th best record in the league. He played the most minutes of any player in the league (21498).

Why don't you explain to us how many more games they would have won if Payton had played less minutes?

The 6 seasons the Bulls won titles - 1990-91 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98, you know who played the most minutes in the league? Karl Malone, followed by Michael Jordan. You know which two teams won the most games those 6 seasons? The Bulls and the Jazz.

Keep making your supposed factual statements. Maybe, just maybe, one will stick.

It was an example of how suboptimally the NBA was run back then

What a clueless statement. The best teams won the most games because they played their best players as many minutes as they could. No load management back then.

And you are talking here about two players (Malone/Jordan) that routinely played heavy minutes and still had two of the longest careers ever.

and with all the extra ground players have no cover today

Another fallacy you keep trying to perpetuate. You are wrong.

The game pace now is nowhere near as fast as it was in the late 70s and early 80s. And you can try cloak your cluelessness with verbiage trying to explain speed and fast and anything else as not meaning the same thing, but since you did not watch the NBA in the 70s and 80s it's meaningless.

it would never even be considered for the RS

You must work for the Knicks. Get your team to the ECF's for the first time in ages, fire the coach.

if you want to do a raw stat comp:

Westbrook (12-20): per 100: 36/12/11 on 536 TS%
GP (94-02): per 100: 29/10/6 on 537 TS%

So stat wise it definitely isn't close when you look at their primes.

Taking a lesson from Jokic fanboys? Simply don't list what your boy is bad at - like defense and turnovers.

So after all your diatribe and verbiage here you are claiming per game/per 100 pts, rebs, asts are what define a player's value?

Very convincing.