2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (OKC leads 3-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
All the fouls, stoppagea and replay reviews was an extreme turnoff. I recorded the game and after fast forwarding lots a stuff, it still took almost 2hrs to watch. Frustrating as hell.
I didn't see any "quite obvious" missed/non-missed calls for there to be the need for a "was the game rigged for OKC" thread. Questionable, sure but nothing blatant.
I didn't see any "quite obvious" missed/non-missed calls for there to be the need for a "was the game rigged for OKC" thread. Questionable, sure but nothing blatant.
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Utah was a dynasty in the 90s
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
Woodsanity wrote:Why did haliban not pass the ball to siakim at all in the 4th quarter? Big reason they loss the game along with mathurin choke and lopsided officiating
OKC tightened up their paint defense against Siakam in the second half. No more getting open off screening action for him. Haliburton would come off screens and find zero passing opportunities. The Pacers had 15 assists in the first half, but only 6 in the second. OKC forced Haliburton to look for his own shot, rather than be a catalyst for Indiana's team-wide attack.
Mathurin was embarrassing to close that game. I thought Nesmith was bad with his undisciplined fouling (complaining about calls after obvious hacks across the arms), but then Mathurin came in after Nesmith fouled out and said HOLD MY BEER. Both those plays were just basically: hope the refs don't see this because I'm just going to outright grab this guy, then body check this other guy.
It's frustrating to try to match the physicality of OKC. Caruso and others are grabbing, clutching, foulers, but they're also very disciplined in terms of knowing what the refs will call. Overall, Indiana has done a terrific job of matching OKC (Nembhard is a defensive god), but Nesmith/Mathurin/Toppin are out there being way too blatant. Fouling without getting called is a skill. There's a reason some of the smartest defenders ever are also huge foulers. Draymond/Bogut/Iggy for the Dubs, Rodman/Laimbeer/Salley/Edwards on the Bad Boys, Ewing/Oakley/C.Smith on the Knicks. Now it's Caruso/Dort/iHart on the Thunder.
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
Dirk2Doncic wrote:Iwasawitness wrote:Dirk2Doncic wrote:
My point was only that you don't stop elite ball handlers (and defense in general is overrated today) I mean look at what the Pacers are doing to the Thunder defense this series and they don't have anyone special handling the basketball other than maybe McConnell but he comes off the bench.
The bigger problem for the Suns defensively was Amare. He was a straight line athlete and awful defensively but when they put Kurt Thomas next to him that Suns team was able to get stops in playoff basketball. They had Matrix and Raja Bell on the floor. Matrix was special.
So you're saying we just shouldn't even bother trying to defend elite ball handlers? They're impossible to stop so why bother?
I'm saying the impact of defense in terms of winning a championship is overrated in today's "culture".
The better offensive team is going to prevail this series. Both teams are bringing it on defense. Thunder executed better offensively down the stretch last night, they had a closer (offense) and the Pacers didn't.
But it's not though.
Celtics, Nuggets, Warriors, Bucks and Lakers are the last five champions. Four of them were elite defensive teams. The only one that wasn't had one of the easiest paths to a championship in NBA history. Defense is an extremely important component when it comes to winning a championship, even today. It's very hard to do it without it.
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
The4thHorseman wrote:All the fouls, stoppagea and replay reviews was an extreme turnoff. I recorded the game and after fast forwarding lots a stuff, it still took almost 2hrs to watch. Frustrating as hell.
I didn't see any "quite obvious" missed/non-missed calls for there to be the need for a "was the game rigged for OKC" thread. Questionable, sure but nothing blatant.
I think that's the point in favor of the conspiracy crowd. The game did not go into overtime, there was no hack-a-Shaq and it still was an extremely long game due to the stoppages. Pacers fans won't be happy with this game but neutral fans are obviously split on how it was called yesterday.
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
The4thHorseman wrote:All the fouls, stoppagea and replay reviews was an extreme turnoff. I recorded the game and after fast forwarding lots a stuff, it still took almost 2hrs to watch. Frustrating as hell.
I didn't see any "quite obvious" missed/non-missed calls for there to be the need for a "was the game rigged for OKC" thread. Questionable, sure but nothing blatant.
Ya no question is was an ugly 4th quarter.
I agree the reffing wasn't as bad as people like to complain it was. I do with the refs would learn SGA's push off, but I understand why that's consistently a tough one for the refs. By driving to the baseline, he positions his body in between the 2 closest refs (neither can see his arm from that angle) and draws contact against a scrambling, off-balance defender. The 3rd ref is looking through a see of bodies, and would have to call an offensive foul before the other 2 call a defensive one. I don't really see how the refs could call it differently, but they must talk about it when looking at film.
The Pacers fouling got sloppy. OKC kept driving at the paint, and Nembhard kept rewarding them with obvious hip bumps and swipes on the arm. Toppin an Mathurin were even worse but in lower minutes.
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
MMyhre wrote:Dirk2Doncic wrote:Thunder's defense is overrated, Thunder are overrated.
Pacers are matching them defensively.
Elite ball handlers, guys who have the basketball on a string cannot be stopped. In any era. They go wherever they want on the court. "Great defense" makes them work a little harder to get there, nothing more than that.
The better offensive team will win this series.
Haliburton would be a significantly better player if he was better going left.
Bill Russell was the offensive engine apparently.. Hakeem.. Pippen/MJ perimeter defense.. Rodman, Badboys tough D, Duncan, Garnett, Davis, Heatles swarming defense, Ben Wallace, Kawhi, Draymond, Giannis... list goes on. Defense is usually more of often than not winning rings. The Nash Phoenix Suns didnt really get close despite being an all time offense.
Need some D. Plus OKC has the best scorer and will probably shoot better from 3 than the game they still won..
I edited my post.
You can read my other posts for clarification on my position if you are interested.
Thunder defense is "historically great" and yet this Pacers offense is often carving them up this series. So now I'm thinking of what the Pacers would do to this Thunder defense if they actually had an elite closer.
Defense wins championships is brain dead. The truth is, you need both offense and defense.
Having an elite closer on offense down the stretch of games in playoff basketball is high impact.
Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
cupcakesnake wrote:Woodsanity wrote:Why did haliban not pass the ball to siakim at all in the 4th quarter? Big reason they loss the game along with mathurin choke and lopsided officiating
OKC tightened up their paint defense against Siakam in the second half. No more getting open off screening action for him. Haliburton would come off screens and find zero passing opportunities. The Pacers had 15 assists in the first half, but only 6 in the second. OKC forced Haliburton to look for his own shot, rather than be a catalyst for Indiana's team-wide attack.
Mathurin was embarrassing to close that game. I thought Nesmith was bad with his undisciplined fouling (complaining about calls after obvious hacks across the arms), but then Mathurin came in after Nesmith fouled out and said HOLD MY BEER. Both those plays were just basically: hope the refs don't see this because I'm just going to outright grab this guy, then body check this other guy.
It's frustrating to try to match the physicality of OKC. Caruso and others are grabbing, clutching, foulers, but they're also very disciplined in terms of knowing what the refs will call. Overall, Indiana has done a terrific job of matching OKC (Nembhard is a defensive god), but Nesmith/Mathurin/Toppin are out there being way too blatant. Fouling without getting called is a skill. There's a reason some of the smartest defenders ever are also huge foulers. Draymond/Bogut/Iggy for the Dubs, Rodman/Laimbeer/Salley/Edwards on the Bad Boys, Ewing/Oakley/C.Smith on the Knicks. Now it's Caruso/Dort/iHart on the Thunder.
A lot of times good defense is simply how much your team can get away with fouling sadly.
I do think certain players can foul blatantly and not get called that often.
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
Chet and Caruso each +14 in last nights game no one else close to that.
Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
Dirk2Doncic wrote:Thunder are overrated.
Pacers are matching them defensively.
Defense in general is overrated.
Elite ball handlers, guys who have the basketball on a string cannot be stopped. In any era. They go wherever they want on the court. "Great defense" just makes them work a little harder to get there.
The better OFFENSE will win this series.
Haliburton would be a significantly better player if he was better going left.
Forget where I saw it, but someone did a scatter plot of every team to make the finals since 2000. The 4 quadrants were: elite defenses, elite offenses, elite at both, elite at neither. Elite defenses were the most common finalist.
Obviously elite at both is better, but they're also more rare.
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
Indy's half court went back to being lifeless was the end of that. They were trying to play that 3 man hand off game the ENTIRE TIME at the end of the game and OKC had that defended well. They tried nothing else.
Pascal is Indy's best ISO player. Pascal was stuck to the corner in that set, got never involved in the last 3 minutes of the game. That's on Carlisle IMO.
Indy needs to integrate Pascal's mid range game into their half court sets and not do just a simple spread out ISO. Way too static and easy for help defense to come.
Pascal is Indy's best ISO player. Pascal was stuck to the corner in that set, got never involved in the last 3 minutes of the game. That's on Carlisle IMO.
Indy needs to integrate Pascal's mid range game into their half court sets and not do just a simple spread out ISO. Way too static and easy for help defense to come.

Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
ibraheim718 wrote:Chet and Caruso each +14 in last nights game no one else close to that.
common theme all throughout the playoffs
chet + caruso (and cason) is the blowout formula for okc
Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
Woodsanity wrote:cupcakesnake wrote:Woodsanity wrote:Why did haliban not pass the ball to siakim at all in the 4th quarter? Big reason they loss the game along with mathurin choke and lopsided officiating
OKC tightened up their paint defense against Siakam in the second half. No more getting open off screening action for him. Haliburton would come off screens and find zero passing opportunities. The Pacers had 15 assists in the first half, but only 6 in the second. OKC forced Haliburton to look for his own shot, rather than be a catalyst for Indiana's team-wide attack.
Mathurin was embarrassing to close that game. I thought Nesmith was bad with his undisciplined fouling (complaining about calls after obvious hacks across the arms), but then Mathurin came in after Nesmith fouled out and said HOLD MY BEER. Both those plays were just basically: hope the refs don't see this because I'm just going to outright grab this guy, then body check this other guy.
It's frustrating to try to match the physicality of OKC. Caruso and others are grabbing, clutching, foulers, but they're also very disciplined in terms of knowing what the refs will call. Overall, Indiana has done a terrific job of matching OKC (Nembhard is a defensive god), but Nesmith/Mathurin/Toppin are out there being way too blatant. Fouling without getting called is a skill. There's a reason some of the smartest defenders ever are also huge foulers. Draymond/Bogut/Iggy for the Dubs, Rodman/Laimbeer/Salley/Edwards on the Bad Boys, Ewing/Oakley/C.Smith on the Knicks. Now it's Caruso/Dort/iHart on the Thunder.
A lot of times good defense is simply how much your team can get away with fouling sadly.
I do think certain players can foul blatantly and not get called that often.
When we say "blatantly" in regards to fouling, we're talking about it being blatant from our isometric tv view + instant replays. Refs stand baseline and sidelines in a triangle, trying to capture a 3D view of the action. Smart defenders know which angles are harder for the refs to see. Things that may be blatant from our audience view, are invisible or too hard to call for refs. On the flipside, the refs see more stuff we dont. As a crowd we're often like: how was THAT a foul, and then if we get a replay it's pretty obvious.
There is a psychological factor too. Players regarded as great, high IQ defenders get more benefit of the doubt in certain situations. Players who look wild and out of control get called more often than guys who look balanced and composed. Some players are better than others at communicating with the refs.
I think we get caught up too much in thinking these things are objective. Fouls and calls are a part of basketball, including wrong/bad/missed calls. Every hardcore study into NBA officiating has shown a pretty impressive success rate overall, so it's not like the refs are just out there wildin'. Even playing basketball at lower levels, you have to learn what kinds of plays look like a foul and what you can get away with. Jumping into a guy with your arms out and down will get called as a foul whether you make contact of not. Undisciplined reaching in the wrong situation will get called sometimes even when you don't make illegal contact. On the flipside, you can get away with a ton of illegal body block contact when you maintain a solid looking guarding position, and you can get away with a ton of reaching against a ball handler that looks out of control. What looks like a foul to the refs is more important than what objectively is a foul (it's never going to be objective in most situations because neither human or computer can measure body to body force.)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
Iwasawitness wrote:Dirk2Doncic wrote:Iwasawitness wrote:
So you're saying we just shouldn't even bother trying to defend elite ball handlers? They're impossible to stop so why bother?
I'm saying the impact of defense in terms of winning a championship is overrated in today's "culture".
The better offensive team is going to prevail this series. Both teams are bringing it on defense. Thunder executed better offensively down the stretch last night, they had a closer (offense) and the Pacers didn't.
But it's not though.
Celtics, Nuggets, Warriors, Bucks and Lakers are the last five champions. Four of them were elite defensive teams. The only one that wasn't had one of the easiest paths to a championship in NBA history. Defense is an extremely important component when it comes to winning a championship, even today. It's very hard to do it without it.
I didn't say it was enough.
I said both teams are bringing it defensively so the difference will be who executes down the stretch of games on offense which is what happened last night.
And you might want to mention what the teams you listed did to their opponents with their offense.
Celtics were elite offensively as a unit. Joker historically high impact on offense, Durant/Curry/Thompson historically great shooting, Giannis doesn't get a ring without the relentless driving to the basket (closing it on offense)
I'm pushing back on the simpleton brain dead defense wins championships mantra
Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
og15 wrote:Myles Turner's shot needs to return for Indy, that would really help them. Him shooting 40/20 is just not it, so maybe law of averages will play out.
Yep. He was great for us to start off the playoffs and he still gives us a lot defensively but his outside shot has faltered lately. I don't know what it is, maybe his ankle that he injured against the Knicks is bothering him or maybe he's just missing, but we absolutely need him to come back into this series.
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
Obi Toppin Game 5 MVP masterclass incoming, Fam
Pacers in 6, the Illuminati and OKC will lose game 5

Pacers in 6, the Illuminati and OKC will lose game 5

Equanimity, peace, harmony and conscientiousness, friends
Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
Thunder win game 5, Pacers win game 6, Thunder win game 7. That's how I see it going. Just like the Denver series.
Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
Dirk2Doncic wrote:Iwasawitness wrote:Dirk2Doncic wrote:
I'm saying the impact of defense in terms of winning a championship is overrated in today's "culture".
The better offensive team is going to prevail this series. Both teams are bringing it on defense. Thunder executed better offensively down the stretch last night, they had a closer (offense) and the Pacers didn't.
But it's not though.
Celtics, Nuggets, Warriors, Bucks and Lakers are the last five champions. Four of them were elite defensive teams. The only one that wasn't had one of the easiest paths to a championship in NBA history. Defense is an extremely important component when it comes to winning a championship, even today. It's very hard to do it without it.
I didn't say it was enough.
I said both teams are bringing it defensively so the difference will be who executes down the stretch of games on offense which is what happened last night.
And you might want to mention what the teams you listed did to their opponents with their offense.
Celtics were elite offensively as a unit. Joker historically high impact on offense, Durant/Curry/Thompson historically great shooting, Giannis doesn't get a ring without the relentless driving to the basket (closing it on offense)
I'm pushing back on the simpleton brain dead defense wins championships mantra
Okay, let's mention their offense shall we?
2024: In the four games Boston won to win the series, they limited Dallas to below 100 points in each game. In the only game they didn't, Dallas blew them out and won by almost 40. In each game that they won, they didn't manage to score anymore than 110 points. It was their defense that won them this championship, not their offense.
2023: Again, the lone exception of the title winner not being an elite defensive team, and even then, most of their games were won by limiting Miami to below 100.
2022: First off, Durant wasn't on this team. And even then, those Warriors teams with Durant were still elite defensive squads. Second and more importantly, just like 2024, Golden State won this series with their defense. Yes, Curry carried the offensive load some ridiculous shooting performances, but in each game that they won, Boston was held to below 100 with Golden State barely cracking that mark. It was their defense that won them this championship, not their offense.
2021: The overall scores for these are very misleading. While we do have high scoring games, both teams played at a faster than normal pace for a finals and it was through high scoring efforts from their best players. Both Booker and Giannis had multiple 40 point performances in this one, hell Giannis had a 50 pointer in the closeout game. If you want to say offense won this one, I won't necessarily argue it, but if they didn't have a superior defense to Phoenix, they more than likely don't win.
2020: One of the main reasons LA even got as far as they did in the first place is because of how they were built defensively. Offensively they were well built but defense was their backbone. Three of their wins came via holding Miami to below 100 points.
Oh and btw, I mentioned before that the Nuggets were the last championship winner to not sport an elite defense. Before that? You'd have to go all the way back to 2000 for a championship winner to not have, at the very least, a top ten defense. Meanwhile, in that time span, we have multiple championship winning teams that didn't have a top ten offense.
Still wanna pretend defense doesn't win championships?
LakerLegend wrote:LeBron was literally more athletic at 35 than he was at 20
Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
Dirk2Doncic wrote:MMyhre wrote:Dirk2Doncic wrote:Thunder's defense is overrated, Thunder are overrated.
Pacers are matching them defensively.
Elite ball handlers, guys who have the basketball on a string cannot be stopped. In any era. They go wherever they want on the court. "Great defense" makes them work a little harder to get there, nothing more than that.
The better offensive team will win this series.
Haliburton would be a significantly better player if he was better going left.
Bill Russell was the offensive engine apparently.. Hakeem.. Pippen/MJ perimeter defense.. Rodman, Badboys tough D, Duncan, Garnett, Davis, Heatles swarming defense, Ben Wallace, Kawhi, Draymond, Giannis... list goes on. Defense is usually more of often than not winning rings. The Nash Phoenix Suns didnt really get close despite being an all time offense.
Need some D. Plus OKC has the best scorer and will probably shoot better from 3 than the game they still won..
I edited my post.
You can read my other posts for clarification on my position if you are interested.
Thunder defense is "historically great" and yet this Pacers offense is often carving them up this series. So now I'm thinking of what the Pacers would do to this Thunder defense if they actually had an elite closer.
Defense wins championships is brain dead. The truth is, you need both offense and defense.
Having an elite closer on offense down the stretch of games in playoff basketball is high impact.
Mmm
Pacers vs bucks: 119.9 off rating
Pacers vs cavs: 116.7 off rating
Pacers vs knicks: 117.8 off rating
....
Pacers vs okc: 110.3 off rating
You sure about that?
Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
cupcakesnake wrote:...
Thanks for making the thread good homie. It was nearly at 100 pages when I got off the computer last night but I figured I'd let people get their emotions out for a while before making the new one.
..
Patches Perry wrote:Bumping this for newfound relevance. I wouldn't make an "idiot" thread but maybe an officiating grievances thread so that the basketball threads can actually stay about basketball. Yall do this with politics all the time (and rightfully so). These people whining are not idiots, they are sore losers who selectively resort to conspiracies every time there is an outcome they don't like.
I'm not even a Thunder fan and I found the excess of foul conspiracy posts to be quite annoying. So I get it. Thing is, I don't think anyone is going to use a separate thread to talk about that stuff during the game, and the mods can't keep up with moving an avalanche of posts to another thread in real time. So I don't know if it's doable in practical terms. But I'll think on possible solutions.
I'm here to make things less annoying for y'all, but in my opinion it actually more annoying to have multiple threads about the annoying thing rather than just keeping it contained to one place as much as possible. But maybe others prefer the opposite.
Anyhoo... great series hooray!
Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
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Re: 2025 NBA FINALS: #1 Oklahoma City Thunder vs #4 Indiana Pacers (Series tied 2-2)
Didn't watch game 4 but I imagine OKC came out with better focus. If im the OKC coach I got to tear them a new one when TJ McConnell steals two inbounds passes in a Finals game. Shows a lack of focus and they looked like the young team who thought they could be handed a championship.
California Gold wrote:This is extra because people hate the Lakers and their brand so much.
This trade wasn't some conspiracy - it was just a GM wanting AD bad enough where in most people's eyes he overpaid by a long shot to get him.