Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

My 1/2 cent.

There are two reasonable arguments. The first is that the trade for Deni was to position us better in the '25 draft and add new players that could be developed on a time frame that was reasonable for when we might be competitive. I understand and am good with that argument.

The second argument is that we shouldn't have traded Deni or we traded him too early because we saw him breaking out in the '23-'24 season. He would have either been a #2 or #3 option on a winning team or he would have fetched more in trade assets (and more importantly in a better draft year).

I don't think this says that the FO is bad. They have a strategy and are "mostly" sticking to the strategy. And no FO wins every trade. That doesn't make this trade a good one. The FO should be judged on their body of work over the next 5 years (or maybe 10). And most on this board are more obsessed with the FO doing well than anything else.

I would also say, the vast majority would never call Deni's breakout in '23-'24 season or last season, "marginal". He was a good basketball player - he just blossomed more than some (and my guess is that includes our FO) would have expected. Some saw it coming.

Yeah but horrible trades weigh heavily on how you're going to be assessed. Just like EG rightfully was by this board, Dawkins should be too. He doesnt get a free pass for "vision", period.

That is true... but

You have to give it to Dawkins to go hard after the rebuild. And with a bit of luck and if he would have had the ping pong balls bounce the right way - we could have said - brilliant.

And you have to admit that thus far he has drafted really well. And don't over look the Beal trade - a think of beauty! A solid drafter with lots of pick coming.

Yes, I didn't like the Poole trade and Kuz and Kispert signings. I very much didn't like the Deni trade (I guess that is a huge surprise). But overall, I have to say this FO has been a lot better than the last two. At least we are trying...

Well if you embrace the ping pong balls, you better bet able to deal with the results. I don't think you can say he has drafted well, I think at best jury is out on that one. Not impressed with Sarr and Carrington, Bilal was a fine pick but so far kinda meh given the amount of minutes he's been given, and I think George was solid, I like that he seems to give a damn about defense, but again still many questions.

Beal trade was good work given the disaster he inherited from Beal getting a NTC, I've said as much in previous posts. That said, not really impressed with many of his other moves. Gafford trade was fine trade in my book too.

Deni trade is outright, through and through, major blunder.

[montestewart]

That’s a fallacy of a straw man.

Let me guess, you are white and or Jewish? Otherwise you probably wouldn’t be so obsessed with such a marginal player.

Yes, yes of course, the big Zionist, cabal in cahoots on this board of long tenured posters and fans sleeping in wait to back the Jewish guy who wasn't even born when most became fans.

I've always had the sneaky suspicion a lot of the dislike of Avdija or to call him marginal had ulterior motives and reasonings. Thanks for confirming to the board this is true.

Let me see, one side is obsessed with a player who isn’t on the team anymore, and wasn’t all that great when he was on the team, and has only had 1 truly good season on a bad team.

While the other side, liked Deni and hoped for the best for him when he was on the team, even though he wasn’t all that great (and many people were upset that he was drafted over Haliburton) but they still supported him and were happy for him. This side is even happy that he is doing well in Portland. This side just doesn’t think the team was fleeced when they traded Deni away. By your reckoning, this side is clearly antisemitic for not being bothered by the trade. Okay.

If you're criticizing "obsession" over actual or proposed trades, maybe your problem is with RealGM, where people obsessed with actual or proposed trades gather to obsess about actual or proposed trades. On its face, it didn't seem like a great trade, and I'm pretty persuaded by Nate's well-supported arguments, but as hands would say, "We shall see." He's not on the team now, and I'm more focused on the current players, but it's fair to continually reassess the quality of the trade in considering current management's body of work.

But I don't obsess about it. And yet I am white. Maybe I am spared obsession here because my mother is not Jewish, I don't know how that works. Not to pile on, but your ironic (if mildly humorous) suggestion that some irrational bias regarding Avdija stems from being white and/or Jewish brings to mind the duality of bias, a term I think maybe I just made up. The Israeli Avdija fanboys don't show up much anymore, just the usual diverse rainbow of Wiz board regulars. Disagree, but try to keep it clean, OK?

[AFM]

Yes, yes of course, the big Zionist, cabal in cahoots on this board of long tenured posters and fans sleeping in wait to back the Jewish guy who wasn't even born when most became fans.

I've always had the sneaky suspicion a lot of the dislike of Avdija or to call him marginal had ulterior motives and reasonings. Thanks for confirming to the board this is true.

Let me see, one side is obsessed with a player who isn’t on the team anymore, and wasn’t all that great when he was on the team, and has only had 1 truly good season on a bad team.

While the other side, liked Deni and hoped for the best for him when he was on the team, even though he wasn’t all that great (and many people were upset that he was drafted over Haliburton) but they still supported him and were happy for him. This side is even happy that he is doing well in Portland. This side just doesn’t think the team was fleeced when they traded Deni away. By your reckoning, this side is clearly antisemitic for not being bothered by the trade. Okay.

If you're criticizing "obsession" over actual or proposed trades, maybe your problem is with RealGM, where people obsessed with actual or proposed trades gather to obsess about actual or proposed trades. On its face, it didn't seem like a great trade, and I'm pretty persuaded by Nate's well-supported arguments, but as hands would say, "We shall see." He's not on the team now, and I'm more focused on the current players, but it's fair to continually reassess the quality of the trade in considering current management's body of work.

But I don't obsess about it. And yet I am white. Maybe I am spared obsession here because my mother is not Jewish, I don't know how that works. Not to pile on, but your ironic (if mildly humorous) suggestion that some irrational bias regarding Avdija stems from being white and/or Jewish brings to mind the duality of bias, a term I think maybe I just made up. The Israeli Avdija fanboys don't show up much anymore, just the usual diverse rainbow of Wiz board regulars. Disagree, but try to keep it clean, OK?

Not exactly how I would have phrased it but his insinuation isn’t crazy. Anyone remember Wizraeli? Or, I think MOSH (?) accusing me of making fun of Israeli/Gaza (didn’t happen)?

Maybe if Derik Queen was Persian, I would lose my sht if we traded him too. I dunno.

[payitforward]

...Not exactly how I would have phrased it but his insinuation isn’t crazy....

Maybe if Derik Queen was Persian, I would lose my sht if we traded him too. I dunno.

You can be Persian and Jewish, you know.

There's been a Jewish community there continuously since the 8th century BCE. Indeed, historically, Persia has been one of the most welcoming place for Jews to live. Some demographers claim that its height the Jewish population of the Persian Empire amounted to almost 20% of the total population.

It was the Persian Empire, btw, that freed Jews from the Babylonian captivity, & they were granted citizenship as well -- this was 2500+ years ago. In comparison, European Jews could not become citizens until after the French Revolution @240 years ago.

Overall, anti-Semitism is overwhelmingly a European phenomenon -- a Christian phenomenon. Indeed, it is inherent in Christian doctrine, wherein Jews play an important part as the "other," the organized deniers of Jesus's divinity.

Until the founding of Israel on Palestinian territory there had been comparatively little organized anti-Jewish prejudice in the Middle East for the previous century or so, although, yes, some significant tendencies in Islamic history have been anti-semitic -- & some anti-Christian as well.

But you will find nothing of that kind, nothing at all, in the Koran. The opposite, in fact, as it regards Jesus is regarded as a prophet & Abraham as the way-back-there-Father of all the people.

[AFM]

Maybe if Derik Queen was Persian, I would lose my sht if we traded him too. I dunno.

You can be Persian and Jewish, you know.

There's been a Jewish community there continuously since the 8th century BCE. Indeed, historically, Persia has been one of the most welcoming place for Jews to live. Some demographers claim that its height the Jewish population of the Persian Empire amounted to almost 20% of the total population.

It was the Persian Empire, btw, that freed Jews from the Babylonian captivity, & they were granted citizenship as well -- this was 2500+ years ago. In comparison, European Jews could not become citizens until after the French Revolution @240 years ago.

Overall, anti-Semitism is overwhelmingly a European phenomenon -- a Christian phenomenon. Indeed, it is inherent in Christian doctrine, wherein Jews play an important part as the "other," the organized deniers of Jesus's divinity.

Until the founding of Israel on Palestinian territory there had been comparatively little organized anti-Jewish prejudice in the Middle East for the previous century or so, although, yes, some significant tendencies in Islamic history have been anti-semitic -- & some anti-Christian as well.

But you will find nothing of that kind, nothing at all, in the Koran. The opposite, in fact, as it regards Jesus is regarded as a prophet & Abraham as the way-back-there-Father of all the people.

Oh I know. I knew a Jewish Persian girl in college. Damn she was pretty. I digress…

[payitforward]

Since the fall of the Shah, the Jewish population has declined enormously -- I think there are fewer than 10,000 Jews in Iran these days. But there are still lots of synagogues. This is a particularly well-known one in Tehran: http://archive.diarna.org/site/detail/public/725/

[AFM]

Since the fall of the Shah, the Jewish population has declined enormously -- I think there are fewer than 10,000 Jews in Iran these days. But there are still lots of synagogues. This is a particularly well-known one in Tehran: http://archive.diarna.org/site/detail/public/725/

Turn on the news, Net and Yahoo probably just hit it with a missile.

[payitforward]

I should add that in Iran all religions other than Islam face restrictions & prejudicial pressures, often extreme pressures. Just as, in Europe, all non Christian religions face such pressures. This is a global problem & not one particular to Islam.

[payitforward]

Since the fall of the Shah, the Jewish population has declined enormously -- I think there are fewer than 10,000 Jews in Iran these days. But there are still lots of synagogues. This is a particularly well-known one in Tehran: http://archive.diarna.org/site/detail/public/725/

Turn on the news, Net and Yahoo probably just hit it with a missile.

Netanyahu is a hateful human being. Sadly, he is almost certain to be continually enabled by the maniacal idiots in power in our country. It looks like "MAGA" is successfully engineering the end of a 250 year experiment in democracy.

[dckingsfan]

https://hoopshype.com/rumor/grizzlies-targeting-deni-avdija/

[closg00]

https://hoopshype.com/rumor/grizzlies-targeting-deni-avdija/

Everyone has their price, I wonder what it would take to get him from the Blazers? I would be very surprised if they traded him.

[Endless Loop]

I should add that in Iran all religions other than Islam face restrictions & prejudicial pressures, often extreme pressures. Just as, in Europe, all non Christian religions face such pressures. This is a global problem & not one particular to Islam.

Just to understand (I'm not as well traveled as you)- are you saying that Christians in Europe treat Muslims similarly to how Muslims in Iran treat Christians?

I was under the impression that the Muslim population of Western Europe was increasing, but doubt that would be true if there were such extreme pressures.

[dckingsfan]

https://hoopshype.com/rumor/grizzlies-targeting-deni-avdija/

Everyone has their price, I wonder what it would take to get him from the Blazers? I would be very surprised if they traded him.

To me, this is just how wild rumors get this time of year...

[payitforward]

I should add that in Iran all religions other than Islam face restrictions & prejudicial pressures, often extreme pressures. Just as, in Europe, all non Christian religions face such pressures. This is a global problem & not one particular to Islam.

Just to understand (I'm not as well traveled as you)- are you saying that Christians in Europe treat Muslims similarly to how Muslims in Iran treat Christians?

Listen up: ALL preconceived notions about other groups of human beings -- religions, countries, ethnicities, so-called "races," sexual identity, you name it -- all of that is wrong. Wrong ethically, but above all & always wrong as claims of fact.

If, in particular, you imagine that Christians have treated Muslims better than Muslims have treated Christians, you're just plain incorrect. Which is probably to say no more than that you haven't paid attention to the issue or investigated it either historically or in the present. It just sits there as one more "us" vs. "them" prejudice -- &, in truth, those prejudices appear to be ineradicable globally. A sad fact.

As to Iran, I'm not in the business of defending either the revolutionary regime that took power in '79 nor the Shah's regime that came before it. That said, what idea do you have of how "Muslims in Iran" treat Christians? I.e. of the status of Christianity in Iran.

Everything I know I've learned just now from what Google led me to read -- there are between 120K & 250K Christians in Iran. It's perfectly legal to BE a Christian but not to proselytize & not to convert from Islam to Christianity. There is also, doubtless, the full range of majoritarian discrimination & social pressure directed at Christians of the kind there are in the opposite direction in Western societies.

I was under the impression that the Muslim population of Western Europe was increasing, but doubt that would be true if there were such extreme pressures.

The Muslim population of the entire globe is increasing & is likely to surpass the Christian population some time in this century. As to patterns of emigration & immigration, people obviously follow opportunity & take all manner of risks to do so. OTOH, from the naive assumption you express in the above sentence, I conclude that you haven't looked into the issue of anti-Muslim (& for that matter anti-Semitic) activities that are every day news in Europe.

I could go on, but the truth is that it's too depressing to imagine that a guy like you, who has shown himself on this forum as an intelligent person, remains nonetheless subject to unfortunately ineradicable idea that "the other" is somehow different, less "civilized," than my people.

Irt's right there in the language, isn't it? In the two meanings of the word "kind," as if "my kind are kind." Sorry, no.

[AFM]

The majority of the Christians in Iran are due to its Armenian population. There are quite a few beautiful churches:





Iran is kind of a peculiar country because while it's obviously a theocracy, Iran has one of the youngest populations in the world--many are highly westernized and what I would call MINO (Musilims In Name Only)

[The Consiglieri]

There's less moaning over on the clippers board over sga than here over deni **** advija

It's pretty crazy. I think 90% of the board agreed that we lost the trade when it was made too.

Some responses to some takes:


>>>>The comparison isn't between 24 year old Deni and 18/19 year old Bub, it's between them as assets to a rebuilding team, and for some, Deni at 19 and Bub at 19 and additionally, all the other goodies we received (another first, 2 seconds, a body to trade that we didn't, better tanking for the '25 and '26 and '27 classes). We'll know more or less how this trade played out in a couple of years.


>>>>>The flat lottery odds aren't the only point, it was also about protecting the '26 point, and if we'd managed the tank properly, insuring that getting screwed would drop us to 5, rather than 6 (which is what would have happened if I'd been running the show, zero chance I'd have had Bub out there w/a chance to pull a win out of his ---). If we're at 5 all this talk about Bailey falling to us is far more potentially believable, and the climb up to Philly's pick, easier. Part of tanking is avoiding the worst case scenario, in this class it was picking 6th or 7th, next year it's having no better than the 4th worst team if memory serves.



None of this takes away from the point that right here, right now, and at the time, the trade was one sided, not of the swindling variety, like the Doncic trade, but clearly at best a 75 cents for a dollar deal when you added Deni's cost controlled contract to the ledger (I remain stunned that actually competitive teams didn't trump that offer, and why a tanking team did it, it didn't make sense then, and still doesn't that they're crowing about moving the needle from a 20-25 win team, to a 25-35 win team in a much tougher conference: what is that exactly accomplishing? Still a win, in terms of assets, but it makes it far more likely the Blazers are just on the bad side of mediocre, in terms of ceiling with the rest of this decade, while we have a vastly wider ranger of possibilities, which is what you actually want, when you're bad). We lost the trade, at the time, and probably period, we'll see how bad it is, in time, but to me, the biggest part of all this is Deni, was not a piece that could help us long term in what we're trying to accomplish, at best, he would put our '26 first at risk, he wasn't making us a contender, he was a finishing piece for an already good team. It doesn't mean who cares, acknowledging that, it just means he always made more sense as a piece that a good team looking to be great, with assets that included likely future lottery picks or good young prospects in house should have made.....

Which is part of why I don't understand why people are so damn pissed. Literally the only reason I'm mad is that we ABSOLUTELY should have gotten a top 5-7 pick in '24, or a pick likely to be top 4-8 in '25 and another much more speculative first down the line in the trade. Two picks that could be in the teens or worse, years and years apart was always a pretty piss poor offer and they clearly saw Bub as a top 6-8 player in making such a deal (but top 6-8 in '24 is what exactly compared to 6-8 in a genuinely good class?!?!). That's why I was and am pissed, we did a trade that always at risk of delivering at worst two busts, and most likely, a borderline starter and a bust, which isn't exactly enough for a good young player, cost controlled for nearly half a decade. A poor return, period. That pissed me off, but long term, the only thing that ever really mattered was our '25 and '26 firsts, and potentially getting lucky and hitting a bullseye in the crap '24 class, or in the distance w/the '27. Deni was never changing any of this if he stayed, he was always in a best case scenario, just making it worse. Its just to me, they shouldn't have fixated on their own superior draft knowledge about Bub, and instead fixated on getting legit asset value in hand: either an elite young prospects, or a pick package that included at least one blue chip zone first, and a speculative first at worst. They didn't even get that, I'll always be pissed off about that, but it's not gonna carry over much from here on out. At this point, everything about Bilal, Sarr, maybe Bub, the '25 and '26 and '27 firsts. We ride or die 95% on the latter 3 assets. We were never riding or dying with Deni.

[TGW]

People are pissed because he’s the best two way player this garbage trashbin of a franchise has had in ages, who made pennies on the dollar, and was under the age of 25. And you traded him for a pick in one of the weakest drafts in the past decade, and some random ass pick in 2030.

Stop acting like people don’t have a reason to be pissed.

[dckingsfan]

I should add that in Iran all religions other than Islam face restrictions & prejudicial pressures, often extreme pressures. Just as, in Europe, all non Christian religions face such pressures. This is a global problem & not one particular to Islam.

Just to understand (I'm not as well traveled as you)- are you saying that Christians in Europe treat Muslims similarly to how Muslims in Iran treat Christians?

Listen up: ALL preconceived notions about other groups of human beings -- religions, countries, ethnicities, so-called "races," sexual identity, you name it -- all of that is wrong. Wrong ethically, but above all & always wrong as claims of fact.

If, in particular, you imagine that Christians have treated Muslims better than Muslims have treated Christians, you're just plain incorrect. Which is probably to say no more than that you haven't paid attention to the issue or investigated it either historically or in the present. It just sits there as one more "us" vs. "them" prejudice -- &, in truth, those prejudices appear to be ineradicable globally. A sad fact.

As to Iran, I'm not in the business of defending either the revolutionary regime that took power in '79 nor the Shah's regime that came before it. That said, what idea do you have of how "Muslims in Iran" treat Christians? I.e. of the status of Christianity in Iran.

Everything I know I've learned just now from what Google led me to read -- there are between 120K & 250K Christians in Iran. It's perfectly legal to BE a Christian but not to proselytize & not to convert from Islam to Christianity. There is also, doubtless, the full range of majoritarian discrimination & social pressure directed at Christians of the kind there are in the opposite direction in Western societies.

I was under the impression that the Muslim population of Western Europe was increasing, but doubt that would be true if there were such extreme pressures.

The Muslim population of the entire globe is increasing & is likely to surpass the Christian population some time in this century. As to patterns of emigration & immigration, people obviously follow opportunity & take all manner of risks to do so. OTOH, from the naive assumption you express in the above sentence, I conclude that you haven't looked into the issue of anti-Muslim (& for that matter anti-Semitic) activities that are every day news in Europe.

I could go on, but the truth is that it's too depressing to imagine that a guy like you, who has shown himself on this forum as an intelligent person, remains nonetheless subject to unfortunately ineradicable idea that "the other" is somehow different, less "civilized," than my people.

Irt's right there in the language, isn't it? In the two meanings of the word "kind," as if "my kind are kind." Sorry, no.

I think a lot of this stems from ignorance not stupidity (or intelligence). If you haven't traveled extensively or done business or political transactions with others in different countries - well, its hard to get a reading on what people are really like.

My mother (nearing 100) still thinks of China as a bunch of heathens living in shacks. She won't ever be able to wrap her head around that...

My guess (okay hope) is that someone like Endless Loop goes out and does a bit of traveling to these places. It is eye opening...

[Jay81]

Just a horrific trade

[payitforward]

...Iran is kind of a peculiar country because while it's obviously a theocracy, Iran has one of the youngest populations in the world--many are highly westernized and what I would call MINO (Musilims In Name Only)

Yes, & the current woman's movement for change, led & pushed by young women, is incredible -- brave &, in the long run, will be effective.

Moreover, Iran is a deeply cultured country. E.g. the greatest contemporary filmmakers of the last 30 years are Iranian -- & you can get most of their films on Amazon Prime. Robert De Niro is a familiar name, right? He's a big fan:

Watch on YouTube

My favorite Kiarostami fillms include:

Ten
The Wind Will Carry Us
Taste of Cherry
Certified Copy
Like Someone in Love

For anyone practicing any are, especially film of course, this book, Lessons With Kiarostami, is an incredibly valuable book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1942782004?

Kiarostami died of cancer in 2016, alas. His amazing last film, 24 Frames, can be seen on youtube. It's experimental. I find it mesmerizing:

Watch on YouTube

My favorite filmmaker working today is the Iranian Jafer Panahi -- his latest film won the Palme d'Or at Cannes a few weeks ago.

Panahi is banned from making films in Iran, but he makes them anyway! He's been in prison twice, but he keeps making movies. Watch Tehran Taxi or any of his other film; they're all wonderful. Pretty much all on Amazon Prime.

I've hijacked this thread long enough; sorry.