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2025 Draft Thread - Part 3

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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#361 » by closg00 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 2:06 pm

Dat2U wrote:
nate33 wrote:
9 and 20 wrote:Looks like Essengue might be a top 5 or 6 pick now. Super young, productive, good size.

His measurements haven't changed much since the last time.

Last year, he measured 6'-9" barefoot with a 6'-11" wingspan and a 9'-3.25" standing reach. He was 198 pounds.

He has gained an inch in height an 1.75 inches in wingspan, but lost 1.5 inches in standing reach (probably because he tanked it to boost his vertical leap numbers). My guess is most of the wingspan improvement was his torso filling out a bit as he matured.

I think he's an interesting high upside gamble, but I don't really think these measurements place him firmly in the top 6. I think he could go anywhere between 6 and 20.


The production at his age is impressive. He seems to have good feel. An event creator defensively and a monster in transition. He scores on timely cuts to the rim to the dunker's spot, the ocassional open 3, putbacks on offensive rebounds & of course, on the break. Apparently his combination of length & athleticism make him tougb to stop on the move leading to a jaw dropping foul rate.

So he excels and has mastered the 'edges' of the game to be productive at a young age in his league. The C length & wing mobility give you hope as a switchable big capable of guarding all 5 positions.

The 'meat' of his game is light on substance however. The handle is basic and he doesn't look comfortable with it. He can attack some closeouts although alot of his limited forays to the basket are mostly of him backing people down. The shooting is built around his willingness to shoot them despite low %s. The form looks slow but he's not really being guarded so its not an issue yet. His passing is interesting and he does offer some promise to eventually provide connective passing. Defensively, he can be disruptive but consistency & attention to detail has been an issue but at 18 those things can improve. I just think he's an underskilled F or a wispy C project that must refine his skill or be destined to be a backup energy big stuck b/w positions.


Essengue reminds me of Bilal, but with even poorer handles and shooting, late 1st round pick if at all for me.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#362 » by dckingsfan » Sat Jun 14, 2025 3:33 pm

closg00 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
nate33 wrote:His measurements haven't changed much since the last time.

Last year, he measured 6'-9" barefoot with a 6'-11" wingspan and a 9'-3.25" standing reach. He was 198 pounds.

He has gained an inch in height an 1.75 inches in wingspan, but lost 1.5 inches in standing reach (probably because he tanked it to boost his vertical leap numbers). My guess is most of the wingspan improvement was his torso filling out a bit as he matured.

I think he's an interesting high upside gamble, but I don't really think these measurements place him firmly in the top 6. I think he could go anywhere between 6 and 20.


The production at his age is impressive. He seems to have good feel. An event creator defensively and a monster in transition. He scores on timely cuts to the rim to the dunker's spot, the ocassional open 3, putbacks on offensive rebounds & of course, on the break. Apparently his combination of length & athleticism make him tougb to stop on the move leading to a jaw dropping foul rate.

So he excels and has mastered the 'edges' of the game to be productive at a young age in his league. The C length & wing mobility give you hope as a switchable big capable of guarding all 5 positions.

The 'meat' of his game is light on substance however. The handle is basic and he doesn't look comfortable with it. He can attack some closeouts although alot of his limited forays to the basket are mostly of him backing people down. The shooting is built around his willingness to shoot them despite low %s. The form looks slow but he's not really being guarded so its not an issue yet. His passing is interesting and he does offer some promise to eventually provide connective passing. Defensively, he can be disruptive but consistency & attention to detail has been an issue but at 18 those things can improve. I just think he's an underskilled F or a wispy C project that must refine his skill or be destined to be a backup energy big stuck b/w positions.

Essengue reminds me of Bilal, but with even poorer handles and shooting, late 1st round pick if at all for me.

Funny, he doesn't remind me of Bilal at all, of course - I don't see Bilal becoming a stretch 5 in time. I see Bilal as a wing and Essengue as a big.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#363 » by closg00 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 4:04 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
closg00 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
The production at his age is impressive. He seems to have good feel. An event creator defensively and a monster in transition. He scores on timely cuts to the rim to the dunker's spot, the ocassional open 3, putbacks on offensive rebounds & of course, on the break. Apparently his combination of length & athleticism make him tougb to stop on the move leading to a jaw dropping foul rate.

So he excels and has mastered the 'edges' of the game to be productive at a young age in his league. The C length & wing mobility give you hope as a switchable big capable of guarding all 5 positions.

The 'meat' of his game is light on substance however. The handle is basic and he doesn't look comfortable with it. He can attack some closeouts although alot of his limited forays to the basket are mostly of him backing people down. The shooting is built around his willingness to shoot them despite low %s. The form looks slow but he's not really being guarded so its not an issue yet. His passing is interesting and he does offer some promise to eventually provide connective passing. Defensively, he can be disruptive but consistency & attention to detail has been an issue but at 18 those things can improve. I just think he's an underskilled F or a wispy C project that must refine his skill or be destined to be a backup energy big stuck b/w positions.

Essengue reminds me of Bilal, but with even poorer handles and shooting, late 1st round pick if at all for me.

Funny, he doesn't remind me of Bilal at all, of course - I don't see Bilal becoming a stretch 5 in time. I see Bilal as a wing and Essengue as a big.


:gossip: I don't see Essengue becoming a stretch 5 :-? Both are primarily floor runners and slashers looking for dunks and put-backs, they will shoot sometimes, but it's ugly. I am extremely skeptical of most of these Frenchies transitioning to the NBA, but it happens.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#364 » by dckingsfan » Sat Jun 14, 2025 4:08 pm

closg00 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
closg00 wrote:Essengue reminds me of Bilal, but with even poorer handles and shooting, late 1st round pick if at all for me.

Funny, he doesn't remind me of Bilal at all, of course - I don't see Bilal becoming a stretch 5 in time. I see Bilal as a wing and Essengue as a big.

:gossip: I don't see Essengue becoming a stretch 5 :-? Both are primarily floor runners and slashers looking for dunks and put-backs, they will shoot sometimes, but it's ugly. I am extremely skeptical of most of these Frenchies transitioning to the NBA, but it happens.

:wink: but yeah, I am pretty skeptical of Sarr, Essengue and Bilal all for different reasons. But I guess that is just being a young player. Since we have two of them, I am irrationally cheering for them.

Agreed that if you don't buy into Essengue as a big, you don't draft him.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#365 » by nate33 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:56 pm

Read on Twitter


Absolutely wretched lane agility and 3/4 sprint numbers, but the standing vertical and max vertical numbers are really quite good for a guy who weighs 219. He outleaps VJ Edgecombe in the standing vertical, and is only 2 inches shy of VJ's max vertical, despite carrying 30 extra pounds.

And looking at the anthro measurements, I don't think Kon tanked the standing reach measurement to inflate his vertical numbers. Kon's standing reach is in line with a bunch of guys who are a bit shorter than Kon but with a longer wingspan.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#366 » by NatP4 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 6:58 pm

Think chances are high that we are in a bidding war with Charlotte for VJ.

Dallas: Flagg
SA: Harper
Washington: VJ
Charlotte: Kon
Utah: Ace
Philly: Tre
NOP: Fears
BKN: Jakucionis
TOR: Maluach
Houston: who the hell knows?
Portland: Carter Bryant

I’m not totally convinced that VJ is worth trading up for. Seems like a high injury risk kind of player, the lack of wing size/length is pretty limiting in terms of primary option/all star potential.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#367 » by WizarDynasty » Sat Jun 14, 2025 8:06 pm

NatP4 wrote:Think chances are high that we are in a bidding war with Charlotte for VJ.

Dallas: Flagg
SA: Harper
Washington: VJ
Charlotte: Kon
Utah: Ace
Philly: Tre
NOP: Fears
BKN: Jakucionis
TOR: Maluach
Houston: who the hell knows?
Portland: Carter Bryant

I’m not totally convinced that VJ is worth trading up for. Seems like a high injury risk kind of player, the lack of wing size/length is pretty limiting in terms of primary option/all star potential.

i do like edgecomb better than all the other guards. If we had an opportunity to trade up and get him for a 2nd rounder, i would consider.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#368 » by closg00 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 8:23 pm

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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#369 » by badinage » Sat Jun 14, 2025 11:34 pm

NatP4 wrote:Think chances are high that we are in a bidding war with Charlotte for VJ.

Dallas: Flagg
SA: Harper
Washington: VJ
Charlotte: Kon
Utah: Ace
Philly: Tre
NOP: Fears
BKN: Jakucionis
TOR: Maluach
Houston: who the hell knows?
Portland: Carter Bryant

I’m not totally convinced that VJ is worth trading up for. Seems like a high injury risk kind of player, the lack of wing size/length is pretty limiting in terms of primary option/all star potential.


Interesting. What makes you think that they’re in a bidding war?
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#370 » by nate33 » Sat Jun 14, 2025 11:54 pm

badinage wrote:
NatP4 wrote:Think chances are high that we are in a bidding war with Charlotte for VJ.

Dallas: Flagg
SA: Harper
Washington: VJ
Charlotte: Kon
Utah: Ace
Philly: Tre
NOP: Fears
BKN: Jakucionis
TOR: Maluach
Houston: who the hell knows?
Portland: Carter Bryant

I’m not totally convinced that VJ is worth trading up for. Seems like a high injury risk kind of player, the lack of wing size/length is pretty limiting in terms of primary option/all star potential.


Interesting. What makes you think that they’re in a bidding war?


I'm mostly assuming that all information leaked from various terms is nothing but misinformation. The only "rumors" I even remotely heed are the ones that line up with the teams' actual needs. For example, I tend to discount the Philly rumor that they love VJ, because their depth chart indicates they have plenty of guards and are in dire need of forwards. On the other hand, the rumor that San Antonio is listening to Harper trade ideas makes perfect sense since they already have Fox and Castle.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#371 » by tontoz » Yesterday 12:02 am

Draft day is going to be nuts.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#372 » by NatP4 » Yesterday 1:02 am

badinage wrote:Interesting. What makes you think that they’re in a bidding war?


Mostly just playing a guessing game with the reports/smokescreen stuff out there. In combination with team needs and a few things I have heard.

The Philly reports about a “private workout” and Maxey attending, and “Philly loves the fit between VJ and Maxey in the backcourt” seem like obvious smoke.

Meanwhile, reports about multiple teams being interested in trading up for Edgecombe&Philly looking to move down/interest in Tre Johnson&*possibly* interest in Ace.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#373 » by payitforward » Yesterday 1:11 am

Coming out of high school, Edgecombe was #4 on the RSCI top 100 prospects. Carrington was nowhere on the previous year's list.

Edgecombe had a *much* better Freshman college season than Bub.

If we draft Edgecombe, does this reflect on Bub's future as a Wizard?
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#374 » by gesa2 » Yesterday 2:45 am

payitforward wrote:Coming out of high school, Edgecombe was #4 on the RSCI top 100 prospects. Carrington was nowhere on the previous year's list.

Edgecombe had a *much* better Freshman college season than Bub.

If we draft Edgecombe, does this reflect on Bub's future as a Wizard?

Maybe, but there’s a lot of developmental water to go under the bridge first. Two tickets that we like (maybe more with AJ on the team as well) on the “what will they be at age 25?” lottery.
I like Bub a lot but there is no one on our team that should keep us from drafting BPA. We can trade Poole if we need to have plenty of minutes for everyone.
Making extreme statements like "only" sounds like there are "no" Jokics in this draft? Jokic is an engine that was drafted in the 2nd round. Always a chance to see diamond dropped by sloppy burgular after a theft.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#375 » by nate33 » Yesterday 3:40 am

payitforward wrote:Coming out of high school, Edgecombe was #4 on the RSCI top 100 prospects. Carrington was nowhere on the previous year's list.

Edgecombe had a *much* better Freshman college season than Bub.

If we draft Edgecombe, does this reflect on Bub's future as a Wizard?

I don't think so. Both Edgecombe and Bub have enough height and length to play either the 1 or the 2. I actually think they are pretty complementary, with Bub being the cerebral game manager PG who will take care of the ball and hit perimeter shots, and Edgecombe being the aggressive slasher and defensive stopper at SG.

Maybe down the road, after several years of development, Edgecombe will develop enough ball skills and game management skills to become the full time point guard, which might make Carrington less important. At that point, we might be better off swapping Carrington for a bigger, more versatile wing defender. But I think for the next several years, Edgecombe will not supplant Carrington as the PG.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#376 » by NatP4 » Yesterday 4:30 am

payitforward wrote:Per Givony, Maluach & Traore does make sense. A big talent add in that pair! Ditto if it were to be McNeeley at 18 instead pf Traore.

Their big board shows Johni Broome still available at 40. IMO, he's an absolutely can't-miss NBA prospect, a guy who's going to have a long, productive career in the league. Not a star, not a primary scorer, but a stud all the same.

As an alternative to Broome, Woo pencils in Toohey. Anyone have a take on him?


I think Toohey is a guy you have to go get if he falls anywhere in the range of #40(maybe even at #18).

You see lazy Andrei Kirilenko comparisons all the time, but Toohey reminds me a bit of him. Not really vertically explosive, but he’s still an explosive athlete with his strength/agility/quick twitch. Smartest player on the court at all times.

It would be pretty shocking if he doesn’t turn out to be a quality NBA player, especially after measuring in at 6’9 with a 6’11 wingspan. He’s got legit NBA 3/4 size.

Home run draft for me, is trading 6 for 8&27 and picking CMB&Richardson/Traore at 8&18, and making sure you can get Toohey at 27.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#377 » by Dat2U » Yesterday 1:13 pm

2nd to final list:

Tier 1 - Revolutionize the game tier
None

Tier 2 - Your franchise 'engine'
1. F Cooper Flagg
2. G Dylan Harper

Tier 3 - Weakness of the draft - High level starting quality talent
3. SG V.J. Edgecombe
4. SG Tre Johnson
5. SF Ace Bailey (Ace is really b/w 3rd/4th tiers IMO)

Tier 4 - Depth of the draft - Potential solid starters & high level role players.

6. PG Jeremiah Fears
7. FC Derik Queen
8. FC Danny Wolf
9. GF Will Riley
10. F Noah Penda
11. PG Kasparas Jakucionis
12. C Thomas Sorber
13. F Carter Bryant
14. C Khaman Maluach
15. PG Walter Clayton Jr
16. PG Nolan Traore
17. FC Collin Murray-Boyles
18. GF Kon Knueppel
19. SG Jase Richardson
20. PG Ben Saraf
21. GF Hugo Gonzalez

Tier 5 - Continued depth of the draft - guys that can develop into solid role players or fringe starters.

22. C Hansen Yang
23. FC Noa Essengue
24. FC Asa Newell
25. FC Rasheer Fleming
26. GF Cedric Coward
27. GF Neoklis Avdalas
28. C Maxime Raynaud
29. G Nique Clifford
30. F Adou Thiero
31. GF Egor Demin
32. C Joan Beringer
33. SF Liam McNeeley
34. C Johni Broome

Tier 6 - Tier most impacted by returnees. Potential role players, depth, projects.

35. PF Bogoljub Markovic
36. PF Alex Toohey
37. SG Drake Powell
38. C Ryan Kalkbrenner
39. PG Javon Small
40. C Rocco Zikarsky
41. GF Sion James
42. SG Koby Brea
43. C Amari Williams
44. G Kam Jones

Tier 7 - Two-ways, exhibit 10s, G-league...
44. PF Eric Dixon
45. G Hunter Sallis
46. G Tyrese Proctor
47. GF Jamir Watkins
48. SG John Tonje
49. C Yanic Konan Niederhauser
50. F Grant Nelson
51. PG Ryan Nembhard
52. PG Mark Sears
53. C Vladisav Goldin
54. G Max Shugla
54. F R.J. Luis Jr
55. G Tamar Bates
56. G Alijah Martin
57. G Caleb Love
58. GF Kobe Saunders
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#378 » by nate33 » Yesterday 1:53 pm

Dat2U wrote:2nd to final list:

Tier 1 - Revolutionize the game tier
None

Tier 2 - Your franchise 'engine'
1. F Cooper Flagg
2. G Dylan Harper

Tier 3 - Weakness of the draft - High level starting quality talent
3. SG V.J. Edgecombe
4. SG Tre Johnson
5. SF Ace Bailey (Ace is really b/w 3rd/4th tiers IMO)

Tier 4 - Depth of the draft - Potential solid starters & high level role players.

6. PG Jeremiah Fears
7. FC Derik Queen
8. FC Danny Wolf
9. GF Will Riley
10. F Noah Penda
11. PG Kasparas Jakucionis
12. C Thomas Sorber
13. F Carter Bryant
14. C Khaman Maluach
15. PG Walter Clayton Jr
16. PG Nolan Traore
17. FC Collin Murray-Boyles
18. GF Kon Knueppel
19. SG Jase Richardson
20. PG Ben Saraf
21. GF Hugo Gonzalez

Tier 5 - Continued depth of the draft - guys that can develop into solid role players or fringe starters.

22. C Hansen Yang
23. FC Noa Essengue
24. FC Asa Newell
25. FC Rasheer Fleming
26. GF Cedric Coward
27. GF Neoklis Avdalas
28. C Maxime Raynaud
29. G Nique Clifford
30. F Adou Thiero
31. GF Egor Demin
32. C Joan Beringer
33. SF Liam McNeeley
34. C Johni Broome


Relative to the consensus, you are significantly more favorable of the following guys:

Wolf (+14)
Penda (+16)
Riley (+14)
Clayton Jr. (+12)
Saraf (+8)
Gonzalez (+9)

And significantly less favorable of:

Knueppel (-12)
Maluach (-7)
Essengue (-13)
Demin (-17)
McNeeley (-16)
Clifford (-10)

Most of your other rankings in the first round are generally in line with consensus.

(Numbers in parenthesis are the delta between your ranking and the consensus board)
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#379 » by NatP4 » Yesterday 2:25 pm

What I would do/would've done over the last 5 drafts:

2025:
6: Collin-Murray Boyles -had CMB as a lottery pick in Feb 2024 whenever he was featured on zero public mock drafts.
18: Jase Richardson (likely have to trade up a few spots)

2024:
2: Sarr (Sarr)
14: Trade up 2 spots to 12 to get Topic (Carrington)
24: Pacome Dadiet (George)

2023:
7: Bilal Coulibaly (Coulibaly) -had Bilal ranked as a top 10 pick before his name was on any public mock draft

2022:
10: Trade up 2 spots to 8 to get Dyson Daniels (Johnny Davis) - had Daniels rated as a top 5 pick above Jaden Ivey while public mock drafts had him listed late 1st round. Daniels just finished his age 21 season playing 2500+ minutes and posting 15 points 6.3 rebounds 4.7 assists 3.2 steals 0.8 blocks 2.2 turnovers on 54.5% TS.

2021:
15&22: Trade up to 8 to get Franz Wagner. (Corey Kispert&trade down to 31 for Isaiah Todd) -had Wagner rated as a top 5 pick over both Jalen Green and Kuminga while public mock drafts had him as a late 1st round pick. Has arguably turned into the best player in the 2021 class.

This is my argument for production over measurables/hypothetical upside lol
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 3 

Post#380 » by Dat2U » Yesterday 2:39 pm

nate33 wrote:
Relative to the consensus, you are significantly more favorable of the following guys:

Wolf (+14)
Penda (+16)
Riley (+14)
Clayton Jr. (+12)
Saraf (+8)
Gonzalez (+9)

And significantly less favorable of:

Knueppel (-12)
Maluach (-7)
Essengue (-13)
Demin (-17)
McNeeley (-16)
Clifford (-10)

Most of your other rankings in the first round are generally in line with consensus.

(Numbers in parenthesis are the delta between your ranking and the consensus board)


Wolf - uniquely skilled C capable of running an offense. How many 7-0 250 lb bigs you see pull off stepback 3s with ease? Can run the P&R or be the roll man. Versatility will make him invaluable for creative offensive coaches.


Penda - elite defensive traits paired with high level processing. His hands are special on defense. Has + playmaking skill. Solidly built and can guard 3s & 4s.

Riley - Very lengthy wing with solid IQ, ball skill and shot creation abilities. Has 3-level scoring potential & tools to be a solid defender as well.

Clayton Jr - High level shot maker & decision maker. Very Payton Pritchard-like IMO. Could be ROY candidate in right situation.

Saraf - Wing-sized PG with craft who can get into the paint regularly and also has solid defensive tools. Showed solid improvement over this past season.

Gonzalez - High level athlete with solid handle and good first step, he also has plus defensive tools, a good motor and good size for a wing.

Knueppel - I don't buy his creation off the dribble. His first step is actually ok but his 2nd & 3rd steps are :no: as he quickly loses momentum going downhill. Alot of his rim runs ended with his back to the basket and using his lower body strength to carve enough space to find an angle to release his shot. He will also be targeted relentlessly on defense.

Maluach - I love the size & frame naturally but I worry about how raw he is in nearly all aspects. I really worry about his reaction time - everything is a beat slow in his rotations defensively. Duke was better defensively with him OFF the floor. I also don't think the jump shot is anywhere close to being NBA ready.

Essengue - His offensive skill is too raw for my liking to play F. Handle & shot are a long ways away. I view him as an energy guy stuck b/w positions until he's strong enough to play C.

Demin - Can see the floor well but that's about it. Not an NBA PG in any shape or form. A future connective wing that needs to learn how to shoot and doesn't have a clear position to defend.

McNeeley - Not impressed with him athletically. Appears a bit stiff. I think shooting is likely his only plus skill. Basic handle to attack closeouts but that's it. His range of outcomes feels as high as Duncan Robinson (useful role player) to being out of the league.

Clifford - I don't dislike him. I will grade college vets pretty harshly especially when there is not one standout they have. He does a little of everything well which is what I expect out of mature & seasined player but I don't know if I buy his shooting enough to say he's an automatic rotation player which he needs to be from day one to warrant his selection at his age.

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