Can someone explain to me how MJ finished 2nd in DPOY voting in '93 despite the Bulls being better defensively in 1994?

[Mean_Streets]

1993 DPOY Voting
1. Hakeem: 73
2. MJ: 9
3. David Robinson: 9
4. Dennis Rodman: 3
5. Patrick Ewing: 1

1993 Bulls
106.1 DRTG (7th in NBA)

1994 Bulls (Without MJ)
102.7 DRTG (6th in NBA)

[FreeBird23]

When you vote in 93 you don't know what will happen in 94.

[Bergmaniac]

Probably because the voters didn't have prophetic powers.

[Mean_Streets]

Probably because the voters didn't have prophetic powers.

Or maybe they overvalued MJ's defense?

Ewing getting only 1 vote despite anchoring a historic defense that year is a crime.

[Karate Diop]

There was a lot of MJ glazing back then, he didn't deserve to be that high.

[Bergmaniac]

Probably because the voters didn't have prophetic powers.

Or maybe they overvalued MJ's defense?

Ewing getting only 1 vote despite anchoring a historic defense that year is a crime.

The voters definitely overvalued Jordan's defence, but the way you framed your question is weird. Obviously they couldn't know in 1993 how the Bulls defence will fare next season.

The real answer is that DPOY voters in the 80s and early 90s were often quite clueless, tended to overrate guard defence and wrongly thought leading the league in steals make someone a worthy candidate for DPOY. Alvin Robertson won DPOY in 1986 even though his team was awful defensively and he was a 6'4" guard. But he got a lot of steals so he won a DPOY once and finished in the Top 5 of the voting 4 more times despite his teams always being either mediocre or terrible on that end.

[NyKnicks1714]

Probably because the voters didn't have prophetic powers.

When you vote in 93 you don't know what will happen in 94.

OP: what even is this question? It might be valid to say he shouldn't have finished that high but how is this possibly an argument for that?

[jokeboy86]

There was a lot of MJ glazing back then, he didn't deserve to be that high.

There was a lot of glazing for MJ, Kobe, and Lebron's defense long after they stopped being elite at it. I think some of those all-defensive team votes were just voters just assuming they were still the best defenders at their position if they were healthy.

[MavsDirk41]

Good morning Nick Wright

[ropjhk]

It would be an oversimplification to say that MJ's defensive impact was simply overrated.

A simple investigation show there was quite a big drop in scoring throughout the NBA from the 93 (105.3 ppg) to 94 (101.5 ppg) season. Defensive ratings improved throughout the NBA. So a significant portion of the difference between the 93 and 94 Bulls can be simply explained by league averages. That may not tell the whole story but it's a significant consideration.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1994.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1993.html

Another consideration: The Bulls replaced Jordan with Pete Myers. Myers wasn't a star but he was known to be a strong defender. So replacing Jordan with a defensive minded role player also helped preserve the Bulls defensive ratings.

Another consideration: The Bulls had to play differently without Jordan. They couldn't rely on his scoring anymore so they were forced to be more focused on defense.

Still, was Jordan an overrated defender? Some people think so, but the analysis has to go far deeper than just looking at the defensive ratings between the 93 and 94 teams.

[Lalouie]

this thread looks strangely familiar
am i having a deja vu moment


defense is a team thing. dpoy is an unnecessary award. it needs to be something else. i don't know what, but something

[D.Brasco]

There was a lot of MJ glazing back then, he didn't deserve to be that high.

It's like how Kobe kept making all-defensive teams years after he stopped putting that much focus on defense, just due to past reputation.

[bkkrh]

When you vote in 93 you don't know what will happen in 94.

Despite that part, how about he was tied for 2nd place and he got NINE of 100 votes. Why not make a thread about how Dan Majerle or John Starks were 5th in DPOY voting with ONE vote while GP, Mutombo or Mookie Blaylock got 0 votes .
.
Btw, the Bulls actually were 2nd in 92/93 Opp PTS/G and 7th in Defensive Rating. In 93/94 they were 3rd and 6th.

[Yoshun]

Every team had a better DRTG in 94.

[bledredwine]

It’s amazing how obsessed with MJ everyone still is to this day, 40 years later, including those who are not fans of his. He still gets threads regularly. Even in posts where his name isn’t directly mentioned, people are referring to him via obvious cliches.

It’s a testament to his established dominance as the greatest player of all time, not just the “GOAT” tag that gen z labels everyone with.

Jordan was frequently second because he was consistently in the conversation for greatest defender in the league prior to first retirement. That’s why. The Bulls did so well in 94 because their defense as a team was slightly better. Teams include a starting lineup and bench, by the way.

[Mean_Streets]

Every team had a better DRTG in 94.

Yes, but Bulls still were still better defensively in '94 even if you adjust for league average DRTG in both years.

1993 Bulls DRTG: 106.1
League average: 108.0
Net: +1.9

1994 Bulls DRTG: 102.7
League average: 106.3
Net: +3.6

[Mean_Streets]

It’s amazing how obsessed with MJ everyone still is to this day, 40 years later, including those who are not fans of his. He still gets threads regularly. Even in posts where his name isn’t directly mentioned, people are referring to him via obvious cliches.

It’s a testament to his established dominance as the greatest player of all time, not just the “GOAT” tag that gen z labels everyone with.

Jordan was frequently second because he was consistently in the conversation for greatest defender in the league prior to first retirement. That’s why. The Bulls did so well in 94 because their defense as a team was slightly better. Teams include a starting lineup and bench, by the way.

They added Kukoc and Kerr in '94, both played big roles that year. Far from defensive stoppers.

[scrabbarista]

It would be an oversimplification to say that MJ's defensive impact was simply overrated.

A simple investigation show there was quite a big drop in scoring throughout the NBA from the 93 (105.3 ppg) to 94 (101.5 ppg) season. Defensive ratings improved throughout the NBA. So a significant portion of the difference between the 93 and 94 Bulls can be simply explained by league averages. That may not tell the whole story but it's a significant consideration.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1994.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1993.html

Another consideration: The Bulls replaced Jordan with Pete Myers. Myers wasn't a star but he was known to be a strong defender. So replacing Jordan with a defensive minded role player also helped preserve the Bulls defensive ratings.

Another consideration: The Bulls had to play differently without Jordan. They couldn't rely on his scoring anymore so they were forced to be more focused on defense.

Still, was Jordan an overrated defender? Some people think so, but the analysis has to go far deeper than just looking at the defensive ratings between the 93 and 94 teams.

Wow, Jordan was so good offensively that the entire league averaged 4 points less per team when he retired. So, he was responsible for (4×27) lifting the league's cumulative scoring average by 108 points per game. That is actually insane.

[tsherkin]

1993 DPOY Voting
1. Hakeem: 73
2. MJ: 9
3. David Robinson: 9
4. Dennis Rodman: 3
5. Patrick Ewing: 1

1993 Bulls
106.1 DRTG (7th in NBA)

1994 Bulls (Without MJ)
102.7 DRTG (6th in NBA)

Seriously?

Because 94 hadn't happened yet.

[Mean_Streets]

1993 DPOY Voting
1. Hakeem: 73
2. MJ: 9
3. David Robinson: 9
4. Dennis Rodman: 3
5. Patrick Ewing: 1

1993 Bulls
106.1 DRTG (7th in NBA)

1994 Bulls (Without MJ)
102.7 DRTG (6th in NBA)

Seriously?

Because 94 hadn't happened yet.

My point is that his defensive impact might have been overstated by voters in '93 as evident to how well the Bulls did on the defensive end without him in '94.