Was Game 4 rigged for OKC?

[Lunartic]

Tens of thousands of RealGM users? The active posters here are several hundred at most, the ones who posted on this specific topic a lot fewer. And there has been quite a few non-OKC fans (like myself) who have objected to the claim that OKC are getting help from the refs.

Correction: tens of thousands of basketball fans in general

Reddits NBA page is pretty much in agreement about bias towards OKC.

One team always gets more help from the refs - it's an absolute. If you reject that OKC is -you think the Pacers have received a better whistle thus far?

There is not really much to discuss if you think that one team always gets more help from the refs, for me this is an absurd claim.

And the average poster on r/nba is hilariously clueless and wrong most of the time.

Statistically it's a truism. There is not equality in sports or nature.

One team has to have had an advantage from the refs - intentionally or otherwise. How is that "absurd"? Do you think the refs are perfect at their job? If the answer is no, then one team is getting an advantage.

[Slimjimzv]

Interesting how the "it's not rigged ur conspiracy theorist!" posters seemingly are arguing that the vast majority of posters on here must be engaging in a conspiracy themselves to all claim that SGA and the Thunder get unfair whistles.

What's more likely?

The NBA refs are biased towards players that flop/seek contact + there's a push to prop up "stars" by gifting them soft calls even in the playoffs

or


Tens of thousands of Realgm users with wide ranging backgrounds, biases, likes/dislikes, team fandoms, ages and walks of life all decided to conspire suddenly to claim the Thunder are receiving an unfair advantage from the refs? And of course, the only people that can see the "truth" are OKC fans?

Seems like a pretty wild conspiracy.

Tens of thousands of RealGM users? The active posters here are several hundred at most, the ones who posted on this specific topic a lot fewer. And there has been quite a few non-OKC fans (like myself) who have objected to the claim that OKC are getting help from the refs.

Correction: tens of thousands of basketball fans in general

Reddits NBA page is pretty much in agreement about bias towards OKC.

One team always gets more help from the refs - it's an absolute. If you reject that OKC is -you think the Pacers have received a better whistle thus far?

Every NBA player is going to have more people rooting against them than for them. This is because only 1 of 30 fan bases are consistently rooting for that player to win. Fans see what they want to see, but there is zero logic in the concept that the NBA is biased towards OKC. SGA knows how to get calls, and OKC knows how to push the limits on defense. Any team could do the same, and would gladly try, but they're not as good at it.

[DoItALL9]

The officiating selections of Game 4 of the NBA Finals lacked integrity. "Rigging", "foul calls", & non-calls can be considered subjective.

Scott Foster's questionableness amongst the public is objective.

[Lunartic]

Tens of thousands of RealGM users? The active posters here are several hundred at most, the ones who posted on this specific topic a lot fewer. And there has been quite a few non-OKC fans (like myself) who have objected to the claim that OKC are getting help from the refs.

Correction: tens of thousands of basketball fans in general

Reddits NBA page is pretty much in agreement about bias towards OKC.

One team always gets more help from the refs - it's an absolute. If you reject that OKC is -you think the Pacers have received a better whistle thus far?

Every NBA player is going to have more people rooting against them than for them. This is because only 1 of 30 fan bases are consistently rooting for that player to win. Fans see what they want to see, but there is zero logic in the concept that the NBA is biased towards OKC. SGA knows how to get calls, and OKC knows how to push the limits on defense. Any team could do the same, and would gladly try, but they're not as good at it.

That's not true.

Once a series is down to 2 teams, there's a division of fans between the two players and I suppose some that hate both teams and wish them death.

The idea that fans of 29 teams are all SGA detractors is silliness. Using your logic, the same percent of fans would also hate Haliburton.

Yes, the OKC have discovered the art of doing this "pushing the limits" Who knew the "limit" was actually Haluburton!

gee i wonder why okc had more points in the paint last night?? couldn't have anything to do with the refs

Read on Twitter

[Slimjimzv]

Correction: tens of thousands of basketball fans in general

Reddits NBA page is pretty much in agreement about bias towards OKC.

One team always gets more help from the refs - it's an absolute. If you reject that OKC is -you think the Pacers have received a better whistle thus far?

Every NBA player is going to have more people rooting against them than for them. This is because only 1 of 30 fan bases are consistently rooting for that player to win. Fans see what they want to see, but there is zero logic in the concept that the NBA is biased towards OKC. SGA knows how to get calls, and OKC knows how to push the limits on defense. Any team could do the same, and would gladly try, but they're not as good at it.

That's not true.

Once a series is down to 2 teams, there's a division of fans between the two players and I suppose some that hate both teams and wish them death.

The idea that fans of 29 teams are all SGA detractors is silliness. Using your logic, the same percent of fans would also hate Haliburton.

Yes, the OKC have discovered the art of doing this "pushing the limits" Who knew the "limit" was actually Haluburton!

gee i wonder why okc had more points in the paint last night?? couldn't have anything to do with the refs

Read on Twitter

There are going to be a lot more haters against the team that won 68 games, pushes the limits, is the overwhelming favorite, and has the MVP, and you know it.

[WestbrookGOATed]

The Pacers missed 8 FT and lost by 7.

[Bergmaniac]

Correction: tens of thousands of basketball fans in general

Reddits NBA page is pretty much in agreement about bias towards OKC.

One team always gets more help from the refs - it's an absolute. If you reject that OKC is -you think the Pacers have received a better whistle thus far?

There is not really much to discuss if you think that one team always gets more help from the refs, for me this is an absurd claim.

And the average poster on r/nba is hilariously clueless and wrong most of the time.

Statistically it's a truism. There is not equality in sports or nature.

One team has to have had an advantage from the refs - intentionally or otherwise. How is that "absurd"? Do you think the refs are perfect at their job? If the answer is no, then one team is getting an advantage.

It's not a truism, it's perfectly possible for the refs to officiate a game fairly, and no, it doesn't require them to be perfect. IF they aren't biased, their errors will tend to be distributed evenly, especially if we are talking about a series and not a single game.

[Lunartic]

There is not really much to discuss if you think that one team always gets more help from the refs, for me this is an absurd claim.

And the average poster on r/nba is hilariously clueless and wrong most of the time.

Statistically it's a truism. There is not equality in sports or nature.

One team has to have had an advantage from the refs - intentionally or otherwise. How is that "absurd"? Do you think the refs are perfect at their job? If the answer is no, then one team is getting an advantage.

It's not a truism, it's perfectly possible for the refs to officiate a game fairly, and no, it doesn't require them to be perfect. IF they aren't biased, their errors will tend to be distributed evenly, especially if we are talking about a series and not a single game.

Okay, provide an example of a perfectly or fairly reffed game involving OKC. I'll watch it.

Do you believe that refs treat rookies and stars differently? Because virtually every single NBA player does - which inherently means reffing is biased.

[Lunartic]

Every NBA player is going to have more people rooting against them than for them. This is because only 1 of 30 fan bases are consistently rooting for that player to win. Fans see what they want to see, but there is zero logic in the concept that the NBA is biased towards OKC. SGA knows how to get calls, and OKC knows how to push the limits on defense. Any team could do the same, and would gladly try, but they're not as good at it.

That's not true.

Once a series is down to 2 teams, there's a division of fans between the two players and I suppose some that hate both teams and wish them death.

The idea that fans of 29 teams are all SGA detractors is silliness. Using your logic, the same percent of fans would also hate Haliburton.

Yes, the OKC have discovered the art of doing this "pushing the limits" Who knew the "limit" was actually Haluburton!

gee i wonder why okc had more points in the paint last night?? couldn't have anything to do with the refs

Read on Twitter

There are going to be a lot more haters against the team that won 68 games, pushes the limits, is the overwhelming favorite, and has the MVP, and you know it.

GSW won 72 games and most fans only hated Draymond Green for his thuggish antics and violence. No one insisted that Curry was getting unfair ref treatment, in fact he prob deserved more calls.

Pretending that success automatically means everyone unfairly maligns the team and accuses them of unfair ref benefits isn't consistent with reality.

From game 1 of the RS, OKC has been accused of getting preferential treatment and these playoffs are just a glaring reminder.

[Tony15]

There was a stretch late in the first half where they were clearly screwing IND, but the Pacers lost the game imo when they went away from Pascal late and Hali tried doing too much.

Sent from my SM-S936U using RealGM mobile app

[Slimjimzv]

That's not true.

Once a series is down to 2 teams, there's a division of fans between the two players and I suppose some that hate both teams and wish them death.

The idea that fans of 29 teams are all SGA detractors is silliness. Using your logic, the same percent of fans would also hate Haliburton.

Yes, the OKC have discovered the art of doing this "pushing the limits" Who knew the "limit" was actually Haluburton!

There are going to be a lot more haters against the team that won 68 games, pushes the limits, is the overwhelming favorite, and has the MVP, and you know it.

GSW won 72 games and most fans only hated Draymond Green for his thuggish antics and violence. No one insisted that Curry was getting unfair ref treatment, in fact he prob deserved more calls.

Pretending that success automatically means everyone unfairly maligns the team and accuses them of unfair ref benefits isn't consistent with reality.

From game 1 of the RS, OKC has been accused of getting preferential treatment and these playoffs are just a glaring reminder.

I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong. We won't change each other's minds. I hope you can learn to enjoy watching the Thunder, because they'll likely be around for awhile. Good luck.

[jbk1234]

If Game 4 was rigged, Mathurin was in on it. There were a couple of questionable calls on Nesmith and Nembhard earlier in the game, but Carlisle didn't challenge them, and Nesmith"s 6th foul wasn't really winnable on a challenge so he'll get second guessed for that. Mathurin having to come in for Nesmith was really the game. Toppin going 1-4 from line didn't help.

[MrGoat]

Maybe, wasn't able to watch most off it but sending in Scott "the Extender" Foster at this point made me raise my eyebrows for sure

[raptor jesus]

The Pacers blew it. They missed a bunch of FTs and Nesmith got cooked by SGA - Nesmith committed two dumb shooting fouls and helped too far off of SGA on another possession, which resulted in a wide open 3; that was 7 quick and easy points right there.

[Patches Perry]

What's more likely?

The NBA refs are biased towards players that flop/seek contact + there's a push to prop up "stars" by gifting them soft calls even in the playoffs

or

Dozens of Realgm users with wide ranging backgrounds, biases, likes/dislikes, team fandoms, ages and walks of life all decided to conspire suddenly to claim the Thunder are receiving an unfair advantage from the refs? And of course, the only people that can see the "truth" are OKC fans?

3rd option- Fans invest a lot of emotion in sports outcomes and especially against huge favorites, and those who manage their emotional investment poorly will seek a scapegoat. Officiating is the most obvious scapegoat because it means you don't have to credit the team that won, and don't have to place accountability on the team that lost.

This intensifies with really great teams that are really hated and underdog teams that are really loved. All year, many were calling OKC paper tigers and regular season frauds who would fold in the playoffs. People are so emotionally invested against OKC that even their post-game interviews where they have a bunch of young guys smiling and encouraging each other is treated with utter disgust and vitriol. People are very emotionally invested in OKC failing, so the need for a scapegoat when they don't is not surprising. The fact that they are playing an underdog cinderella story like the Pacers really multiplies the effect in the finals.

It also doesn't help that many fans don't actually understand the rulebook that well. I have asked for examples all playoffs, and I'd say 90% of the examples provided are the correct call. Obviously some calls are wrong but that goes both ways and someone pushing a "rigged for OKC" conspiracy is going to have severe selection bias.

[Raps in 4]

No. Indy choked. It's as simple as that. We're just used to them making these types of runs, not their opponents.

[og15]

Statistically it's a truism. There is not equality in sports or nature.

One team has to have had an advantage from the refs - intentionally or otherwise. How is that "absurd"? Do you think the refs are perfect at their job? If the answer is no, then one team is getting an advantage.

It's not a truism, it's perfectly possible for the refs to officiate a game fairly, and no, it doesn't require them to be perfect. IF they aren't biased, their errors will tend to be distributed evenly, especially if we are talking about a series and not a single game.

Okay, provide an example of a perfectly or fairly reffed game involving OKC. I'll watch it.

Do you believe that refs treat rookies and stars differently? Because virtually every single NBA player does - which inherently means reffing is biased.

While I agree that this is true and NBA players feel this, I also push back against this being primarily about an inherent bias and a lot of it having to do with guys learning how NBA refs officiate.

A rookie says, "I'm doing the same thing as ___ other guy, and I'm getting a foul called on me, or I'm not getting the call", but when we go into attention to detail, they aren't.


...then as they become vets, they improve on these subtle things, so then is it actually bias because they are rookies, or was it mostly due to their inexperience with NBA officiating?

Some guys come into the league and have tactics and skills on both offense and defense and are getting calls on offense and getting away with more on defense.

Fans will then say things like, "they are treating him like a star", and "they are treating him like a vet", but maybe it's actually that this guy is just more prepared for how NBA refs officiate and knows more of the subtle details

[DonaldSanders]

Not rigged, I hate that thread title.

OKC did get a clear and obviously favorable whistle in a close game though, which was frustrating to watch.

[Big nick]

So no one is talking about the first game when Indy won because of an error of resetting the shot clock. Halliburton would have not gotten off the game winner really stuff just happens sometimes. But it is really depressing when important stuff is not called right. And the reason Indy lost the last game was because the missed free throws period.

[Lunartic]

What's more likely?

The NBA refs are biased towards players that flop/seek contact + there's a push to prop up "stars" by gifting them soft calls even in the playoffs

or

Dozens of Realgm users with wide ranging backgrounds, biases, likes/dislikes, team fandoms, ages and walks of life all decided to conspire suddenly to claim the Thunder are receiving an unfair advantage from the refs? And of course, the only people that can see the "truth" are OKC fans?

3rd option- Fans invest a lot of emotion in sports outcomes and especially against huge favorites, and those who manage their emotional investment poorly will seek a scapegoat. Officiating is the most obvious scapegoat because it means you don't have to credit the team that won, and don't have to place accountability on the team that lost.

This intensifies with really great teams that are really hated and underdog teams that are really loved. All year, many were calling OKC paper tigers and regular season frauds who would fold in the playoffs. People are so emotionally invested against OKC that even their post-game interviews where they have a bunch of young guys smiling and encouraging each other is treated with utter disgust and vitriol. People are very emotionally invested in OKC failing, so the need for a scapegoat when they don't is not surprising. The fact that they are playing an underdog cinderella story like the Pacers really multiplies the effect in the finals.

It also doesn't help that many fans don't actually understand the rulebook that well. I have asked for examples all playoffs, and I'd say 90% of the examples provided are the correct call. Obviously some calls are wrong but that goes both ways and someone pushing a "rigged for OKC" conspiracy is going to have severe selection bias.

Why do you think fans of 29 teams suddenly decided to treat OKC with "vitriol"?

We have had dozens of teams of young teams make deep runs, 2011/12 OKC would be a perfect example. Super young guys, KD/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka (age 45) and other than Harden's flopping no one hated them when they made deep runs. 2015 GSW same story, only hated Draymond for being a thug.

The vitriol comes when fans don't believe a team or player isn't earning their success but rather are being gifted it - at least partially.

Why do you think fans hated Harden? Hate Embiid? Trae Young? They all flop and try to game the system aka the refs into getting free throws. We don't like it because it's not earned the way everyone else has to earn it. I keep hearing the same lame explanations that involve "noo u dont get it theyre so smart and crafty blah blah blah"

Or the common one with SGA/Thunder is "they know how to toe the line/push the limits of what's allowed!" Brother, it's a damn foul so the refs should call them. That above twitter vid of Dort smashing into Haliburton and getting possession of the ball meets all standards for a foul and yet nothing was called. Where is the "line" there? Becuase I guarantee you if Nembhard did that to SGA, he's getting 2 FTA.

Can we agree that SGA does indeed get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to offensive actions? He's given leeway to push-off and he's usually the on the receiving end of FTs when there is a foul called. Can we agree ? Caruso/Dort probably should receive more fouls called on them per game? Agreed?