Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[Scase]

Darko knows all of the Scottie advantages already. They're not stupid.

Scottie was actively encouraging to launch above the break because the whole season was viewed as a development year. They weren't trying to win which explains why Bruce Brown and Kelly were frozen out of the lineup well after it was known they were good to go.

Calling it "development" doesn't excuse stupidity. Would it be ok if Jak was hoisting 10 3pa/g last year? This is such an absurdly lazy excuse, doing something you suck at isn't development, it's bad development.

What's next 10 half court shots a game? It's a waste of a season is what it was, instead of focusing and improving strengths, we encouraged bad habits and had absolutely zero progress improving those weaknesses. These excuses are getting out of hand.

"Stupidity" is a bit strong no? They asked him to try a lot of different things, some of it was ultimately futile but I wouldn't characterize it as stupid.

I absolutely would. Asking him to become a better facilitator, or run the point is a worthwhile attempt that if failed, still is grounded in reality. Asking a guy, who if not for a 30 game stretch of hot shooting, would be putting up roughly 27% from 3, to then jack up multiple ATB 3's a game is stupid. Telling a guy who is a team worst at 3p shooting and has shown zero improvement in 3 years to have free reign from 3, is stupid.

Crawl before you walk, walk before you run. What they did was take a toddler, and put it in the 100m dash. Stuff like that not only shows a glaring weakness of the player to the entire league, as evidenced by how many times they left him wide open to take those 3's, but it has the potential to crater a players confidence.

[canz55]

Calling it "development" doesn't excuse stupidity. Would it be ok if Jak was hoisting 10 3pa/g last year? This is such an absurdly lazy excuse, doing something you suck at isn't development, it's bad development.

What's next 10 half court shots a game? It's a waste of a season is what it was, instead of focusing and improving strengths, we encouraged bad habits and had absolutely zero progress improving those weaknesses. These excuses are getting out of hand.

"Stupidity" is a bit strong no? They asked him to try a lot of different things, some of it was ultimately futile but I wouldn't characterize it as stupid.

I absolutely would. Asking him to become a better facilitator, or run the point is a worthwhile attempt that if failed, still is grounded in reality. Asking a guy, who if not for a 30 game stretch of hot shooting, would be putting up roughly 27% from 3, to then jack up multiple ATB 3's a game is stupid. Telling a guy who is a team worst at 3p shooting and has shown zero improvement in 3 years to have free reign from 3, is stupid.

Crawl before you walk, walk before you run. What they did was take a toddler, and put it in the 100m dash. Stuff like that not only shows a glaring weakness of the player to the entire league, as evidenced by how many times they left him wide open to take those 3's, but it has the potential to crater a players confidence.

You make a fair point about opposing teams sagging off him completely to the point where its noticeable almost every game.

However, they're not worried about his confidence. That much I know.

[HangTime]

"Stupidity" is a bit strong no? They asked him to try a lot of different things, some of it was ultimately futile but I wouldn't characterize it as stupid.

I absolutely would. Asking him to become a better facilitator, or run the point is a worthwhile attempt that if failed, still is grounded in reality. Asking a guy, who if not for a 30 game stretch of hot shooting, would be putting up roughly 27% from 3, to then jack up multiple ATB 3's a game is stupid. Telling a guy who is a team worst at 3p shooting and has shown zero improvement in 3 years to have free reign from 3, is stupid.

Crawl before you walk, walk before you run. What they did was take a toddler, and put it in the 100m dash. Stuff like that not only shows a glaring weakness of the player to the entire league, as evidenced by how many times they left him wide open to take those 3's, but it has the potential to crater a players confidence.

You make a fair point about opposing teams sagging off him completely to the point where its noticeable almost every game.

However, they're not worried about his confidence. That much I know.

And he was doing it while injured (eye, ankle, and shooting hand), so he willingly risked the percentages last season, just to incorporate it to his game rhythm.

It was the perfect time to do it, but I think only like 10% of see it that way. Other's just see it as chucking.


Again, I think his skill set is so diverse, on both sides of the ball, his overall ceiling is just higher than say Cade and Mobley.

If Cade and Mobley are 85% to their overall ceiling, then Scottie is at like 65% to his ceiling. It's taking longer because there is so much more to work with. Patience is key, but very few have it.

[AbC?]

Sometimes, a player just isn't very good.

[Scase]

Sometimes, a player just isn't very good.

While I still think Scottie will top out as a very good player, people need to relax with the excuses for his failings.

[mdenny]

Sometimes, a player just isn't very good.

The messed up thing about it....ppl were spamming his value so deliberately....and actively insulting and blaming his teammates at every turn.

It's the weirdest thing that has ever happened on this board. I was reading this board during the bargs and Jonas hype. It was the same as that except 10 times more toxic and irrational.

[Mikistan]

Sometimes, a player just isn't very good.

The messed up thing about it....ppl were spamming his value so deliberately....and actively insulting and blaming his teammates at every turn.

It's the weirdest thing that has ever happened on this board. I was reading this board during the bargs and Jonas hype. It was the same as that except 10 times more toxic and irrational.

Man, everyday, you spew this rhetoric and weave this fiction.

[Mikistan]

Sometimes, a player just isn't very good.

A yes the isn't very good players that get rookie of the year and all star replacement nods. Checks out

[mdenny]

Sometimes, a player just isn't very good.

A yes the isn't very good players that get rookie of the year and all star replacement nods. Checks out

Not many rookie of the years had this kind of decline in efficiency stats.

As soon as scotty was "given the keys" he became one the worst high usage players in the league while playing for a losing team. Which is quite a feat. Alot of bad high usage players on losing teams at least put up good raw numbers which scotty did not.

We should start talking about his rookie of the year award was really the product of playing with Fred and pascal to tell you the truth. It allowed him to flourish in a limited role which Cade and Mobley and green were not lucky enough to have been blessed with.

Out of that entire draft class (the top picks)....scotty got to play with the best team and the best teammates. I would go far as to say if you put Mobley or green or Cade on the Raptors that season....they probably also would've won rookie of the year. Suggs probably not. Bit a couple between 5 and 10 too.

So I suggest that accomplishment pf ROY was one more determined by circumstance and good fortune.

Which is ironic....because we had to listen to you lot spam the board fpr 3 years talking about how scotty would be so much better without his teammates and that they were holding him at the back of a pecking order.

My contention is that Scott Barnes only looked so promising to his rabid fans exactly BECAUSE he was playing with Fred and pascal and OG. If he had been drafted by the rockets or Detroit....there was no way he would've won ROY. I mean....we just watched him play on a losing team and he was awful.

So let's give due credit to Fred and pascal for his early success as ROY.

[Tripod]

"Rag on Barnes, give Fred the credit!" while adding Siakam in there to make it seem like it's actually a legit argument....lol.

Barnes was an All Star without Fred in the lineup. Give it up trying to always heep praise on FVV while ragging on Barnes. We get it.

[CPT]

I absolutely would. Asking him to become a better facilitator, or run the point is a worthwhile attempt that if failed, still is grounded in reality. Asking a guy, who if not for a 30 game stretch of hot shooting, would be putting up roughly 27% from 3, to then jack up multiple ATB 3's a game is stupid. Telling a guy who is a team worst at 3p shooting and has shown zero improvement in 3 years to have free reign from 3, is stupid.

Crawl before you walk, walk before you run. What they did was take a toddler, and put it in the 100m dash. Stuff like that not only shows a glaring weakness of the player to the entire league, as evidenced by how many times they left him wide open to take those 3's, but it has the potential to crater a players confidence.

You make a fair point about opposing teams sagging off him completely to the point where its noticeable almost every game.

However, they're not worried about his confidence. That much I know.

And he was doing it while injured (eye, ankle, and shooting hand), so he willingly risked the percentages last season, just to incorporate it to his game rhythm.

It was the perfect time to do it, but I think only like 10% of see it that way. Other's just see it as chucking.


Again, I think his skill set is so diverse, on both sides of the ball, his overall ceiling is just higher than say Cade and Mobley.

If Cade and Mobley are 85% to their overall ceiling, then Scottie is at like 65% to his ceiling. It's taking longer because there is so much more to work with. Patience is key, but very few have it.

I try to remain positive with Scottie at least, but this is delusional.

I also dislike how it backdoors into “he just never reached his potential” when he does not end up as good as those guys.

They were better prospects (which is why they were higher picks) and they are better now. If anything Scottie reached a higher level of his potential faster, which is why he won ROTY and appeared to be in the same tier or better for any amount of time.

[canz55]

So I suggest that accomplishment pf ROY was one more determined by circumstance and good fortune.

Virtually all individual accolades can be attributed to fortunate circumstances (related to ideal roster construction etc.) to a large degree. Basketball is a team sport afterall.

[CPT]

Sometimes, a player just isn't very good.

A yes the isn't very good players that get rookie of the year and all star replacement nods. Checks out

I guess this is a fair reply to that comment, but it's also important to remember that everything is relative.

Barnes is very good at basketball, clearly. He's top 40-60 in the world, with arguments to be made to be higher.

When compared to those other people in his peer group... top 5 draft pick, max contract, face of the franchise (league? ), All-Star, and so on... well maybe then he's not very good.

[TheGeneral99]

Sometimes, a player just isn't very good.

A yes the isn't very good players that get rookie of the year and all star replacement nods. Checks out

Not many rookie of the years had this kind of decline in efficiency stats.

As soon as scotty was "given the keys" he became one the worst high usage players in the league while playing for a losing team. Which is quite a feat. Alot of bad high usage players on losing teams at least put up good raw numbers which scotty did not.

We should start talking about his rookie of the year award was really the product of playing with Fred and pascal to tell you the truth. It allowed him to flourish in a limited role which Cade and Mobley and green were not lucky enough to have been blessed with.

Out of that entire draft class (the top picks)....scotty got to play with the best team and the best teammates. I would go far as to say if you put Mobley or green or Cade on the Raptors that season....they probably also would've won rookie of the year. Suggs probably not. Bit a couple between 5 and 10 too.

So I suggest that accomplishment pf ROY was one more determined by circumstance and good fortune.

Which is ironic....because we had to listen to you lot spam the board fpr 3 years talking about how scotty would be so much better without his teammates and that they were holding him at the back of a pecking order.

My contention is that Scott Barnes only looked so promising to his rabid fans exactly BECAUSE he was playing with Fred and pascal and OG. If he had been drafted by the rockets or Detroit....there was no way he would've won ROY. I mean....we just watched him play on a losing team and he was awful.

So let's give due credit to Fred and pascal for his early success as ROY.

We'll see if Scottie can make improvements next season.

While I agree with much of what you say, I think that our deliberate tanking for 1.5 years, sitting Scottie intentionally in 4th quarters, playing garbage line-ups day in and day out etc. has been bad for his development. I would've loved to see a healthy Quickley alongside Barnes that could space the floor and provide another good scoring option, but Quickley was hurt for almost the entire season.

It probably is likely that he's best suited to be a 2nd option or maybe a jack of all trades 3rd option, but I still have hope that if we have a competitive roster around him he can produce at a high level...even with his reduced efficiency there are still only a handful of players that average 20, 8 and 6, and him being only 23 years old makes me more optimistic.

[OakleyDokely]

Things can change very quickly.

If Ingram fits seamlessly into the lineup while pushing Barnes into a more efficient 2nd/3rd option role where he can focus more on the defensive end and the Raps have a successful season, all of a sudden the perception around Barnes changes dramatically.

Mobley is the 3rd/4th option on the Cavs, you don't need to be a #1 option to be a very valuable piece on a successful team.

[tsherkin]

Mobley is the 3rd/4th option on the Cavs, you don't need to be a #1 option to be a very valuable piece on a successful team.

This is certainly true. The question becomes one of magnitude and cost at that point. Mobley, of course, is a 19/9 DPOY who spaces the floor with a 37% 3. He was also a 63.3% scorer on those 19 ppg. And he did that on just shy of 13 FGA/g, which is about the volume at which Barnes shot in each of his first two seasons (during which he wasn't anywhere near as efficient).

Mobley's value is demonstrable. He was an All-Star, and richly deserved that selection.

If Barnes is bringing us anything like THAT level of play, he'll deserve all kinds of attention and praise for his performance, and we should all be thrilled, because Mobley is a very good player. I don't really think Barnes has shown that he projects at that level of play, and I think Mobley is probably a poor example because he's actually a magnificently valuable player, just not a focal scorer/offensive initiator.

Right now, Barnes has shown literally nothing to suggest that he can be that level of efficient scorer in a more supporting role. He has been in that role before and he was mediocre and disappointing. Defensively, he's been excellent and that's exciting and valuable, but he isn't Mobley.

That said, you're right, of course: there are plenty of ways for a guy to be a worthwhile, valuable player without being the focal option on offense. And hopefully, the change of context will help bring some of that out in Scottie going forward. We'll have to see.

[tsherkin]

Sometimes, a player just isn't very good.

A yes the isn't very good players that get rookie of the year and all star replacement nods. Checks out

I guess this is a fair reply to that comment, but it's also important to remember that everything is relative.

Barnes is very good at basketball, clearly. He's top 40-60 in the world, with arguments to be made to be higher.

I guess the counterpoint is "do we find this to be a valuable comment," right?

Because you're not wrong. He's one of the few hundred best players in the NBA, which is remarkable. It just... doesn't matter to the Raptors inside the context of NBA basketball. Like, it doesn't really matter that Scottie would kick my ass up and down the court, all day, every day, without even breaking a sweat.

What matters is his performance relative to peers in the league, where he is paid to play.

[OakleyDokely]

Mobley is the 3rd/4th option on the Cavs, you don't need to be a #1 option to be a very valuable piece on a successful team.

This is certainly true. The question becomes one of magnitude and cost at that point. Mobley, of course, is a 19/9 DPOY who spaces the floor with a 37% 3. He was also a 63.3% scorer on those 19 ppg. And he did that on just shy of 13 FGA/g, which is about the volume at which Barnes shot in each of his first two seasons (during which he wasn't anywhere near as efficient).

Mobley's value is demonstrable. He was an All-Star, and richly deserved that selection.

If Barnes is bringing us anything like THAT level of play, he'll deserve all kinds of attention and praise for his performance, and we should all be thrilled, because Mobley is a very good player. I don't really think Barnes has shown that he projects at that level of play, and I think Mobley is probably a poor example because he's actually a magnificently valuable player, just not a focal scorer/offensive initiator.

Right now, Barnes has shown literally nothing to suggest that he can be that level of efficient scorer in a more supporting role. He has been in that role before and he was mediocre and disappointing. Defensively, he's been excellent and that's exciting and valuable, but he isn't Mobley.

That said, you're right, of course: there are plenty of ways for a guy to be a worthwhile, valuable player without being the focal option on offense. And hopefully, the change of context will help bring some of that out in Scottie going forward. We'll have to see.

There's no reason Barnes can't be an all-defensive player who competes for DPOY. He anchored a tanking team, playing g league guys on a lot nights to one of the best defenses over the 2nd half of the season. There aren't many guys with the ability to guard 1 through 5 and provide weakside rim protection like he does. But he isn't going to get credit for that unless the team is winning.

Offensively the fit is tricky, but as long as the efficiency is averagish, his playmaking, transition ability, bully ball make him useful in a lot of different schemes.

[TakeYourHeart]

We're putting everything on the table (IQ/#9/Yak/RJ), to build around a guy who just put up a .52 TS% and was the worst 3 point shooter of his draft class. Seems risky, to say the least.

[tsherkin]

There's no reason Barnes can't be an all-defensive player who competes for DPOY.

It's possible. Of all things, defense is not my concern with Barnes.

Offensively the fit is tricky, but as long as the efficiency is averagish, his playmaking, transition ability, bully ball make him useful in a lot of different schemes.

We shall see. This season, he was a profound waste of skin as a scorer, so he's got a long way to go just to reach "average" at this point. This fuels my heavy skepticism about him. The passing is nice, he's pretty good in transition... and that's about where his offensive value ends right now. So we need to see meaningful development from him on O before I really worry too much about that becoming a potential reality. Specifically inside the parameters of a comparison to Mobley, he doesn't even come close, obviously.

We've all been over this before. He needs to exploit his size. He needs to screen like an adult. He needs to stop taking ATB 3s, but could get away taking some corner 3s. He's got some kind of mid-range/post game to work with. We need him out in transition even more (though he did pretty well in that regard, in all truthfulness). We need to just strip the idea of shooting more than 12 feet from the basket out of his game, I think, and focus on using him adjacent to and inside of the key for him to become an efficient scorer. And we need to get him back on the offensive boards a bit; he did okay, but he was better over his first three seasons and that was helpful.

I have very limited expectations from Barnes on O at this point. Love his D, but I don't think his passing is really worth a lot of effort for us unless he can really get his crap together doing other things as a lower-volume scorer. I hope to see it, but he doesn't make me enthusiastic.

Now, pessimism and me being a downer aside, I love his defense. And I'm hopeful that in even the near-worst case scenario (aka no real change but maybe he shoots less), his defensive play and passing will make up for his poor scoring, and that the scoring will be covered by the improved overall team context on offense. Ingram coming in, another year of development for the kids, maybe RJ looking a little better, etc, etc.

I just... I guess I responded because I don't see Scottie anywhere near Mobley's value on offense, so the comparison kind of got me rambling. They're very distant in value on that side of the floor.