Was Game 4 rigged for OKC?

[GeorgeMarcus]

These poll results

I laugh but also weep for mankind

Watch on YouTube

[Handlez]

Pacers were favored by the refs most of the game.

OKC was too clutch to be denied.

[Patches Perry]

Why do you think fans of 29 teams suddenly decided to treat OKC with "vitriol"?

It's not. From what I've gathered on this forum/reddit/X, it's disproportionately fans of the Nuggets, Mavericks and now Lakers fans. The MVP angle plays a role and I think Shai leapfrogging Luka in playoff success after Dallas beat OKC last year rubs some Luka fans the wrong way. It's very driven by fans of teams and players who were already adversarial to OKC and Shai.

We have had dozens of teams of young teams make deep runs, 2011/12 OKC would be a perfect example. Super young guys, KD/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka (age 45) and other than Harden's flopping no one hated them when they made deep runs. 2015 GSW same story, only hated Draymond for being a thug.

There was a lot of complaining about GSW illegal screens as well as Draymond's antics, and a lot of complaining about their defense being allowed to be physical. To say otherwise is revisionist. Also, go back to May of 2018 and see how many threads there are about rigging for the 2018 Warriors.

The vitriol comes when fans don't believe a team or player isn't earning their success but rather are being gifted it - at least partially.

Yes this is true, although it's very selective, which completely robs it of any credibility. When their guy does it, it's smart and crafty. When the opponent does it, it's total disrespectful and fraudulent and rigged! If the NBA wants to address this across the board, more power to them, but as long as I've been actively watching the NBA religiously, the best players have scored free points by getting defenders out of position, and then seeking the contact when defenders try to cheat their way back into position. Great players do this consistently because letting out of position defenders back in position is a disadvantage to the team. In my experience, whether fans support this or not is very outcome dependent.

Can we agree that SGA does indeed get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to offensive actions? He's given leeway to push-off and he's usually the on the receiving end of FTs when there is a foul called. Can we agree ? Caruso/Dort probably should receive more fouls called on them per game? Agreed?

I think Shai gets more benefit than the average player yes, but definitely not more than other players his caliber. If someone thinks Shai is getting benefit above and beyond what a top 5 player normally gets, I'd need to see some evidence. The surface level data seems to suggest otherwise. He drives a lot and his rate of free throws per drive suggests he gets disproportionately less free throws than you'd expect. I do understand that such data doesn't necessarily mean he isn't getting some special calls, but like I said, I need some evidence of that. Given the lack of data, the evidence for Shai getting ultra special treatment would need to be mostly anecdotal, which I'm open to, but like I said, almost every example ever provided is the right call within the context of the game (called both ways) and people are just frustrated that it turns the outcome of the game in a way they don't like. I could go find a bunch of Jokic, Luka, Giannis, Kobe, Jordan, etc examples of them doing the same thing.

The fairest version of the "free throw merchant" argument I've heard is that it's just aesthetically displeasing. If someone tells me they don't like watching a game where those calls are made, that's their preference and I can't tell them they're wrong. My main contention is that the calls are not wrong/inconsistent with how others are called and Shai is not the only great player doing them.

Same with the claim on their defense. I just need evidence. I have actively sought out evidence on this and it just seems like sour grapes to me. BBALLBREAKDOWN on YouTube has actually done some good work in trying to put some meat on the bones, but there just isn't a lot there:

Watch on YouTube

[wang000hk]

Pacers were favored by the refs most of the game.

OKC was too clutch to be denied.

You didn't watch the same game as most others

[76ciology]

No, but Game 1 definitely felt rigged in favor of the Pacers. I even predicted that Pacers win on our board before it happened. The NBA tends to lean into these Game 1 upsets by heavy underdogs to build drama and keep the series interesting.

[Lunartic]

It's not. From what I've gathered on this forum/reddit/X, it's disproportionately fans of the Nuggets, Mavericks and now Lakers fans. The MVP angle plays a role and I think Shai leapfrogging Luka in playoff success after Dallas beat OKC last year rubs some Luka fans the wrong way. It's very driven by fans of teams and players who were already adversarial to OKC and Shai.

I'm a Bulls fan, several posters in here are fans of other teams. I'm sure you can find some long-winded way to proving SGA's success actually impacts the Bulls and thus all Bulls fans hate OKC too but the fact is it's not just a couple team's fans not enjoying the Thunder.

There was a lot of complaining about GSW illegal screens as well as Draymond's antics, and a lot of complaining about their defense being allowed to be physical. To say otherwise is revisionist. Also, go back to May of 2018 and see how many threads there are about rigging for the 2018 Warriors.

Sure, there were issues with the GSW and guess what? The detractors were correct. They used moving screens constantly, even Bogut admitted it. So we're agreeing that the fans didn't enjoy an aspect of the Warriors team that invovled the refs giving them preferential treatment? Not calling a moving pick is preferential, not calling technical fouls on Draymond for his constant antics was preferential. We as fans didn't like it. Same as we don't like what's happening with OKC.

Yes this is true, although it's very selective, which completely robs it of any credibility. When their guy does it, it's smart and crafty. When the opponent does it, it's total disrespectful and fraudulent and rigged! If the NBA wants to address this across the board, more power to them, but as long as I've been actively watching the NBA religiously, the best players have scored free points by getting defenders out of position, and then seeking the contact when defenders try to cheat their way back into position. Great players do this consistently because letting out of position defenders back in position is a disadvantage to the team. In my experience, whether fans support this or not is very outcome dependent.

I can't speak for hypocrites. I'm a Bulls fan, DDR was a foul-baiter and I hated it. I've been a life-long Harden detractor from OKC to HOU to NETs to wherever he currently is. I'm very consistent, flopping and baiting shouldn't exist.

I think Shai gets more benefit than the average player yes, but definitely not more than other players his caliber. If someone thinks Shai is getting benefit above and beyond what a top 5 player normally gets, I'd need to see some evidence. The surface level data seems to suggest otherwise. He drives a lot and his rate of free throws per drive suggests he gets disproportionately less free throws than you'd expect. I do understand that such data doesn't necessarily mean he isn't getting some special calls, but like I said, I need some evidence of that. Given the lack of data, the evidence for Shai getting ultra special treatment would need to be mostly anecdotal, which I'm open to, but like I said, almost every example ever provided is the right call within the context of the game (called both ways) and people are just frustrated that it turns the outcome of the game in a way they don't like. I could go find a bunch of Jokic, Luka, Giannis, Kobe, Jordan, etc examples of them doing the same thing.

That's reasonable. I still disagree. Outside of Embiid who spends 70% of the game flopping on the floor - SGA gets the most favorable whistle. He engages in push-offs on a large percentage of his drives, he plays for the foul - not the score. He jumps into defenders and gets rewarded. All of the stuff Trae Young was doing and made him such a hated player.

But even if you're correct and he gets #6 in preferential whistle. He's playing against a top-10/15 guy in Hali and in the Finals, allowing one player to have a whistle advantage over another star is downright wrong. Especially when the game as this close.

[SamSepiol]

Yes.
People who just box score read number of fouls called think otherwise. Same with those that didn’t watch the game or understand it, will think it wasn’t fixed. No idea of momentum, runs, and timing of the fouls were being called as why it’s fixed.

Case in point, a shove not being called with 2:05 left and OKC up one - https://youtu.be/i5zdDHu-JWw?si=9XzkwSOqktgLr15N (2:26 in video)- this end of game looked like what the Pacers did all playoffs long, which was to go back n forth late and eventually end up on top. Not going to happen if they don’t call anything in crunch time.

[KP Duty]

Pacers were favored by the refs most of the game.

OKC was too clutch to be denied.

Yep. Refs showed early they weren't going to let okc get away with ****. Okc surge in the last 3 mins had nothing to do with reffing.

[ThunderBolt]

Looks like Carlisle is in on the conspiracy too.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/45519002/pacers-coach-rick-carlisle-defends-referee-scott-foster

[AbeVigodaLive]

No conspiracy. Bias? I dunno.

Either way, I thought it was a poorly officiated game... and was even more uneven over the final few minutes.

For a game with 53 foul calls, some non-calls helped swing that game.

[Slimjimzv]

Yes.
People who just box score read number of fouls called think otherwise. Same with those that didn’t watch the game or understand it, will think it wasn’t fixed. No idea of momentum, runs, and timing of the fouls were being called as why it’s fixed.

Case in point, a shove not being called with 2:05 left and OKC up one - https://youtu.be/i5zdDHu-JWw?si=9XzkwSOqktgLr15N (2:26 in video)- this end of game looked like what the Pacers did all playoffs long, which was to go back n forth late and eventually end up on top. Not going to happen if they don’t call anything in crunch time.

I agree, that was a bad missed call, but Foster was the one watching, and his view was obstructed by Turner. It sure looks like an honest missed call to me, not rigging the game.

[Alatan]

Does a bear **** in the woods?

What do ursine defecation habits have to do with NBA officiating?

Now that you ask, the end product is pretty much the same.

[og15]

These poll results

I laugh but also weep for mankind

Watch on YouTube

Any polls about conspiracies or rigging are always quite comical.

Yes.
People who just box score read number of fouls called think otherwise. Same with those that didn’t watch the game or understand it, will think it wasn’t fixed. No idea of momentum, runs, and timing of the fouls were being called as why it’s fixed.

Case in point, a shove not being called with 2:05 left and OKC up one - https://youtu.be/i5zdDHu-JWw?si=9XzkwSOqktgLr15N (2:26 in video)- this end of game looked like what the Pacers did all playoffs long, which was to go back n forth late and eventually end up on top. Not going to happen if they don’t call anything in crunch time.

I agree, that was a bad missed call, but Foster was the one watching, and his view was obstructed by Turner. It sure looks like an honest missed call to me, not rigging the game.

Our tv broadcast view is not how refs view the games, but we many times forget that. I've reffed before and guys will be asking how you missed something, and I'm like, dude, I don't have magic eyes that can see through all these bodies all the time while people are in motion, settle down.

[Alatan]

The SGA push-off thing people are mad about...

Tatum got called for push-offs a lot early in his career. He'd actually extend his arm and push off with his hand, which is an offensive foul.

But he adjusted and stopped extending his arm. It became more of a chicken-wing with the elbow or forearm kinda doing the push-off, but his arm is kept tucked and doesn't extend.

This is the whole point. For years now, as long as you don't extend your arm they're not going to call a foul, probably because it isn't a foul. If your arm extends, even just a little, it's usually called. Perhaps because with your arm tucked in it's hard to generate much force and actually make it a push. At any rate, that's the way it's been for some time now and hardly worth complaining about.

So im free to ram you with my elbow as long as i dont extend my arm? Sounds fun for the offense.

[Alatan]

A league that rigs games ended up with Indy - OKC in the Finals. Brilliant analysis!

The real money is in gambling not TV ratings.

[Alatan]

People are just scared and upset that if Shai gets a ring it’ll propel him over their guy. Luka stans in particular are mad at that

I think people just dislike Shai's foul baiting like they dislike Embid's foul baiting. It's boring and not as fun to watch. It makes people root against him.... especially when the opponent is a monumental underdog like Indy.
Just human nature.

I get what you are saying but man.... Embiid's foul baiting in like levels above SGA and other stars. Nothing looks more ridiculous than a 7 foot 300 pound man falling over every play on the slightest contact from smaller defenders.

I disagree. SGA is worse that Embiid or Harden because he both flops and commits offensive fouls while his team also murders on defense. One contrasts the other like nothing else in basketball.

[Ayt]

A league that rigs games ended up with Indy - OKC in the Finals. Brilliant analysis!

The real money is in gambling not TV ratings.

Which only strengthens my initial point.

[8thseed 4ever]

The NBA has been rigged for decades being a Blazers fan years back I always thought the playoffs favored Detroit, LA and Jordan’s bulls over my team. So years later I watched Sacramento get screwed for Kobe’s lakers. I quit watching this sham The WWE at least is honest about rigging their sport unlike the NBA, NFL and MLB.

[ball_takes23]

Notice how OKC's road whistle is completely different now that they aren't trailing in the series anymore? OKC has made one 3 tonight and they are getting blown out just like every other team who has shot this poorly on the road in the NBA finals in the modern age - with the exception of OKC in game 4.