MettaWorldPanda wrote:Boston trading Holliday to the Heat would feel like the Bruins trading Marchand to the Panthers lol.
Stay tuned. If they get KD it’s time to win; Holiday is one of those rare cases like KD where we can get a high level guy (I have faith in him regaining his ways here) without giving up too much. They LOVE Holiday
It’s going to cost us a protected first but at this point we might as well go in. Maybe if lucky just a couple of 2nds
I agree. Get KD and let’s go all in for this 2-3 year window. If it doesn’t work and/or the future is looking bleak at the end of KDs extension blow it up and trade everyone of legit value
I noticed nba players that I came across has their legs shaved.
It’s an athletic and body building thing. Make sure you see all the leg work detail lol
I still don’t understand why nba players shaved their legs? I played basketball team sport and I never thought shaved legs was needed.i would maybe understand for swimmers? But basketball players? I just thought it is weird or strange or very odd for basketball to shaved their legs
SA37 wrote: Ware could be Chandler, Camby, Whiteside, Porzingis, Brook Lopez, Jarrett Allen. It doesn't matter, really. They're all role players. And I don't think Ware has the talent to be more than that. My opinion is you don't pass on true, perennial all-NBA 1st team players to keep a potential role player given where Miami is.
As for a potential KD trade, I've said a few times I don't think Miami should include both Ware and Wiggins, unless there is a 3rd team sending Miami back other assets or Miami has some wink-wink deals with vets. I think the "line in the sand" is Miami either gives Phoenix (1) salary flexibility and picks/young players or (2)"win-now" players and lesser picks/young players or (3) Wiggins and Ware, but an expanded trade (3rd team) with basically no other assets going out. That basically looks something like:
(1) Rozier, Robinson, Ware, #20, and a top-6 protected 1st for Durant (essentially a 1st and a pick swap this year)
(2) Wiggins, Rozier, Anderson + some combo of Jaquez, Jovic, #20 or top-10 protected 1st for Durant
(3) Wiggins, Rozier, Ware #20 for Durant #29
Not sure all those work cap-wise, but that's the idea
In all cases, Miami is going to have to play go-fish for vets, with the most obvious targets being C Paul, B Lopez, Westbrook, Bruce Brown, Malcolm Brogdon, Gary Trent Jr, Luke Kennard, Dennis Schroder, Kevon Looney, Al Horford, Tyus Jones...etc.
In cases 2 and 3, Miami would still have draft assets and possible a young guy + Robinson's contract to swap for a player. If Anderson isn't dealt, perhaps Miami swaps Robinson, Anderson, and a draft asset for Jrue Holiday?
Essentially, I think Miami can field a team:
B Lopez / K Love Bam / Jovic (?) / Anderson (?) Durant / Highsmith / Bruce Brown (?) Herro / Burks / Kennard (?) Tyus Jones (?) / Westbrook (?) / Mitchell (?) / Jrue Holiday (?)
Too thirsty for me.
Brook Lopez is gonna surprise you when he goes for WAY more than vet min (just look at what Steven Adams signed and note all the teams desperate for better C play in the NBA). Without that magic acquisition, where does that leave things?
1-2 years of KD then facing a depleted warchest and full blow up tank job where Miami has already shipped out half their picks in the season's in which Miami will be in tank mode?
It just doesnt work for me if it's not very measured in approach.
It really depends on which vets Miami can get on board. Maybe Miami trades for Claxton, J Allen, Mitchell Robinson, Myles Turner, Vucevic, Gafford...etc. Maybe Miami has to settle for Capela. Maybe Miami just decides to play Bam at center and uses Anderson more or Miami brings in Trey Lyles if Anderson is moved.
A lot of people thought getting LeBron and Bosh to pair with Wade was too thirsty. And then Ray Allen and Mike Miller came along. Miami resuscitated Chris Anderson...etc.
In any case, there are paths to creating an awesome team sans Ware and with Durant.
And I'll add:
Miami traded for Shaq, and figured it out.
Miami acquired LeBron and Bosh, and figured it out.
Miami traded for Butler (and Dragic), and figured it out.
I have faith Miami can trade for Durant and figure it out.
greg4012 wrote:legit question: did anybody see defense from Wiggins in Miami this season that moved the needle at all?
bump
His defense was not impactful. And he's inefficient offensively. Hes a poor man's Butler. When you have prime klay steph draymond, and all you need from him is to be like a better caleb Martin he has the freedom to do his thing and shine.
Remember when we beat the Celtics in 2023. Caleb was the mvp of that series. Same way wiggins was a key contributor in 2022. Hes not a bad player, he just isn't what we need. Hed def be better next to a player like booker than he was here.
Suns are gonna hold out until they can put wiggins or a similar player and claxton next to booker and also get a young player whether its via draft or prospect.
3ammy3uck3ts wrote:I’m cracking up about how clueless everyone is about Bane as a player but how sure you all are of yourself as you speak on him
I watch ball man, Desmond Bane is just CJ Mcculum with a strong future in body building should he choose to pursue it. He’s the Ronnie Coleman of CJ Mcculums.
I don’t know why you have to hate Tyler Herro just because you love Bam. Tyler Herro is a real hooper and a potential offensive engine. I get not thinking he will reach that, completely fair, but to try to pretend like Desmond Bane can hoop with Tyler is a pretty clear way to me to demonstrate either extreme bias or expose yourself as a non ball knower/basketball reference watcher of the game.
If Bane is CJ wtf is Tyler?! You are so far off base here is hilarious. Please tell me what Tyler does at a much higher level than Bane to be considered an apparently FAR better player. We’ve seen Bane average 24 before too and their playmaking is a wash while Bane is the much better defender.
Me not being fond of Tyler has nothing to do with Bam, he sucks when it matters most on both ends and is a literal traffic cone on defense to the point bench players are clearing it out and cooking/embarrassing him on the biggest stage. He has never at any point done anything significant in a Heat jersey to warrant the insane delusion surrounding him in this fanbase. I can’t for the life of me figure out how he has some of you in the chokehold he has.
greg4012 wrote:legit question: did anybody see defense from Wiggins in Miami this season that moved the needle at all?
bump
His defense was not impactful. And he's inefficient offensively. Hes a poor man's Butler. When you have prime klay steph draymond, and all you need from him is to be like a better caleb Martin he has the freedom to do his thing and shine.
Remember when we beat the Celtics in 2023. Caleb was the mvp of that series. Same way wiggins was a key contributor in 2022. Hes not a bad player, he just isn't what we need. Hed def be better next to a player like booker than he was here.
Suns are gonna hold out until they can put wiggins or a similar player and claxton next to booker and also get a young player whether its via draft or prospect.
We were clearly dead set on trying to prove he was near Jimmy as a player with the way we used him while he was here.
3ammy3uck3ts wrote: Stay tuned. If they get KD it’s time to win; Holiday is one of those rare cases like KD where we can get a high level guy (I have faith in him regaining his ways here) without giving up too much. They LOVE Holiday
It’s going to cost us a protected first but at this point we might as well go in. Maybe if lucky just a couple of 2nds
I agree. Get KD and let’s go all in for this 2-3 year window. If it doesn’t work and/or the future is looking bleak at the end of KDs extension blow it up and trade everyone of legit value
Agreed i’m down. Little note with Rozier for Holliday is the Celts save 2 million off their cap this year with those unrealized guarantees. Problem is Clippers might put out an offer of Dunn, Bogi, and DJJ.
SA37 wrote: Ware could be Chandler, Camby, Whiteside, Porzingis, Brook Lopez, Jarrett Allen. It doesn't matter, really. They're all role players. And I don't think Ware has the talent to be more than that. My opinion is you don't pass on true, perennial all-NBA 1st team players to keep a potential role player given where Miami is.
As for a potential KD trade, I've said a few times I don't think Miami should include both Ware and Wiggins, unless there is a 3rd team sending Miami back other assets or Miami has some wink-wink deals with vets. I think the "line in the sand" is Miami either gives Phoenix (1) salary flexibility and picks/young players or (2)"win-now" players and lesser picks/young players or (3) Wiggins and Ware, but an expanded trade (3rd team) with basically no other assets going out. That basically looks something like:
(1) Rozier, Robinson, Ware, #20, and a top-6 protected 1st for Durant (essentially a 1st and a pick swap this year)
(2) Wiggins, Rozier, Anderson + some combo of Jaquez, Jovic, #20 or top-10 protected 1st for Durant
(3) Wiggins, Rozier, Ware #20 for Durant #29
Not sure all those work cap-wise, but that's the idea
In all cases, Miami is going to have to play go-fish for vets, with the most obvious targets being C Paul, B Lopez, Westbrook, Bruce Brown, Malcolm Brogdon, Gary Trent Jr, Luke Kennard, Dennis Schroder, Kevon Looney, Al Horford, Tyus Jones...etc.
In cases 2 and 3, Miami would still have draft assets and possible a young guy + Robinson's contract to swap for a player. If Anderson isn't dealt, perhaps Miami swaps Robinson, Anderson, and a draft asset for Jrue Holiday?
Essentially, I think Miami can field a team:
B Lopez / K Love Bam / Jovic (?) / Anderson (?) Durant / Highsmith / Bruce Brown (?) Herro / Burks / Kennard (?) Tyus Jones (?) / Westbrook (?) / Mitchell (?) / Jrue Holiday (?)
Too thirsty for me.
Brook Lopez is gonna surprise you when he goes for WAY more than vet min (just look at what Steven Adams signed and note all the teams desperate for better C play in the NBA). Without that magic acquisition, where does that leave things?
1-2 years of KD then facing a depleted warchest and full blow up tank job where Miami has already shipped out half their picks in the season's in which Miami will be in tank mode?
It just doesnt work for me if it's not very measured in approach.
It really depends on which vets Miami can get on board. Maybe Miami trades for Claxton, J Allen, Mitchell Robinson, Myles Turner, Vucevic, Gafford...etc. Maybe Miami has to settle for Capela. Maybe Miami just decides to play Bam at center and uses Anderson more or Miami brings in Trey Lyles if Anderson is moved.
A lot of people thought getting LeBron and Bosh to pair with Wade was too thirsty. And then Ray Allen and Mike Miller came along. Miami resuscitated Chris Anderson...etc.
In any case, there are paths to creating an awesome team sans Ware and with Durant.
The bolded is where all this hope falls apart for me. Your gauge for centers is misaligned in 2 ways:
(1) ability to acquire players like Claxton, Jarrett Allen, Mitchell Robinson or Myles Turner
Claxton is being talked about as requiring at least 1 quality player and at least 1 FRP to acquire. Jarrett Allen is not available and would cost more. Mitchell Robinson is the only defensive big on the Knicks, they are not shipping him off for anything less than an upgrade. Myles Turner is literally the homegrown anchor on a Pacers team that may win it all this year. He's about to get PAID by Indiana and is not going anywhere.
(2) assessing Center talent
Vucevic cannot play defense and will cost a FRP. It's not a coincidence that he's never made it more than 5 games into the playoffs through his 13 year career. Miami is not going anywhere with Vuc at C. Capela is pretty washed. He can still do things around the rim, but he can't play in space anymore and would prove to be a big clog on offense while not giving enough on defense. He's a backup center. Gafford is OK, but would cost draft capital and isn't a needle mover.
If adding a good starting center on the cheap was so easy, then everyone would be doing it. There aren't many that exist.
Bam at C should always be a part of what Miami deploys as long as he is in Miami. He is the best switching defensive center in the NBA. BUT, pointing at Miami's prior defensive success with Bam at center without accounting for (1) the fact that the smallball PFs he played alongside (Crowder and Tucker) were far more dynamic defensive players than Jovic or Anderson and (2) Jimmy freakin Butler was a major part of those defenses is pointing at something that is completely different than what you're suggesting.
A lot of people thought getting LeBron and Bosh to pair with Wade was too thirsty. And then Ray Allen and Mike Miller came along. Miami resuscitated Chris Anderson...etc.
This is too silly of a false equivalency to give any more oxygen than this sentence.
Yea they’re pretty much discouraging all outside teams from trying to get in on this. He wants one of his preferred and we’re the most active of the 3.
greg4012 wrote: I think he has potential. None of this stuff is certain. But, the effects of him realizing his potential are exponential impact as a force multiplier.
I also place a lot of value and importance on the dynamics that actually impact team building and acquiring rare skillsets. Contract makeups, leveraging value contracts, future planning with trade capital and draft assets, etc.
I mostly just wholly reject a decisionmaking process that is primarily rooted in limiting analysis to something like "KD good today and Ware not as good today so not trading Ware for KD is not good".
Getting too thirsty for these gambles results in getting the player and not being positioned to do anything with said player.
It's so far from being all about Ware for me, as I've clearly laid out in my posts if you pay attention. Cost of acquisition. Lines in sand.
No, nothing is guaranteed, but you take calculated risks. The goal at all times is to create a championship contender, not to excel at mid-level management. KD makes Miami a legitimate force to make a run to the ECF/Finals like it did during Butler's years in Miami. Ware does not, and he may never be that guy.
How good and impactful Ware will be is key to the analysis of whether it makes sense to include him in a Durant trade or not. If you trade Ware away and he becomes Wemby, Miami will look dumb if Miami never gets close to sniffing the ECF/Finals. If Miami passes on KD only to watch Ware become Tyson Chandler, Miami will look dumb.
If Miami passes on KD for Ware, then we're talking about a fundamentally different direction for Miami. It becomes about long-term team building and not about making Miami a contender now. At the end of the day, this is the decision that Miami has to make.
There's always another shot to take.
It's funny bc I've been one of the people on here making a strong case for KD's impact in Miami. But, you seem to be even higher than me on it (and in parallel lower on Ware's potential than me).
Please make the case for Miami giving up Ware + Wiggins (and draft capital that PHX has seemingly called for) and being the legitimate force to make a run to the ECF/Finals. If Miami is giving all of that up, where's a second move coming? Or do you think a power rotation of Bam, Jovic, and KD puts each in the right position to be maximized for their own impact and to help their teammates (as we all know, the frontcourt NEEDS to do most of the people moving for a decent team)? Where is any additional playmaking or guard rotation help coming from? Is Russell Westbrook or 40-year old Chris Paul the big second move?
Everything else about trying to make this squarely a convo about Ware vs KD is needless distraction.
PS: you're loving the Tyson Chandler comp for Ware lately. Fun fact--Ware scored at a higher rate as a rookie than Tyson Chandler did in any of his 19 seasons in the NBA
I agree with this
I think if you’re going to make a move for KD you need to keep one of Ware or Wiggins I think an argument can be made that the winning move right now with KD is to retain Wiggins.
This is best 5 in the East
Mitchell Herro Wiggins KD Bam
Wiggins isn’t what we tried to make him be post Butler, but you start talking about Wiggins as a 4th option on championship contender who is asked to space/attack closeouts+defend well that’s a different conversation.
That’s his wheelhouse for sure he can thrive in a situation like that. Wiggins doesn’t want to be a main player, but he’s a guy who can look like one unexpectedly when you don’t put that spotlight on him and defenses don’t either. I also think Bam needs to be slid back to the 5 and we need to stop experimenting with a guy who is in his prime and been arguably the best defensive player in the league playing the 5 for his entire career.
A lot of offensive lineman want to play TE it doesn’t mean it’s in their best interest to do it
MettaWorldPanda wrote:It’s going to cost us a protected first but at this point we might as well go in. Maybe if lucky just a couple of 2nds
I agree. Get KD and let’s go all in for this 2-3 year window. If it doesn’t work and/or the future is looking bleak at the end of KDs extension blow it up and trade everyone of legit value
Agreed i’m down. Little note with Rozier for Holliday is the Celts save 2 million off their cap this year with those unrealized guarantees. Problem is Clippers might put out an offer of Dunn, Bogi, and DJJ.
Robinson, Anderson, and a 1st for Holiday
Wiggins, Rozier, Ware, and #20 for Durant
Sign Lopez and Westbrook (or re-sign Mitchell)
Lopez / Love Bam / Jovic Durant / Jaquez Herro / Highsmith / Burks Holiday / Westbrook OR Mitchell
Brook Lopez is gonna surprise you when he goes for WAY more than vet min (just look at what Steven Adams signed and note all the teams desperate for better C play in the NBA). Without that magic acquisition, where does that leave things?
1-2 years of KD then facing a depleted warchest and full blow up tank job where Miami has already shipped out half their picks in the season's in which Miami will be in tank mode?
It just doesnt work for me if it's not very measured in approach.
It really depends on which vets Miami can get on board. Maybe Miami trades for Claxton, J Allen, Mitchell Robinson, Myles Turner, Vucevic, Gafford...etc. Maybe Miami has to settle for Capela. Maybe Miami just decides to play Bam at center and uses Anderson more or Miami brings in Trey Lyles if Anderson is moved.
A lot of people thought getting LeBron and Bosh to pair with Wade was too thirsty. And then Ray Allen and Mike Miller came along. Miami resuscitated Chris Anderson...etc.
In any case, there are paths to creating an awesome team sans Ware and with Durant.
The bolded is where all this hope falls apart. Your gauge for centers is badly misaligned in 2 ways:
(1) ability to acquire players like Claxton, Jarrett Allen, Mitchell Robinson or Myles Turner
Claxton is being talked about as requiring at least 1 quality player and at least 1 FRP to acquire. Jarrett Allen is not available and would cost more. Mitchell Robinson is the only defensive big on the Knicks, they are not shipping him off for anything less than an upgrade. Myles Turner is literally the homegrown anchor on a Pacers team that may win it all this year. He's about to get PAID by Indiana and is not going anywhere.
(2) assessing Center talent
Vucevic cannot play defense and will cost a FRP. It's not a coincidence that he's never made it more than 5 games into the playoffs through his 13 year career. Miami is not going anywhere with Vuc at C. Capela is pretty washed. He can still do things around the rim, but he can't play in space anymore and would prove to be a big clog on offense while not giving enough on defense. He's a backup center. Gafford is OK, but would cost draft capital and isn't a needle mover.
If adding a good starting center on the cheap was so easy, then everyone would be doing it. There aren't many that exist.
Bam at C should always be a part of what Miami deploys as long as he is in Miami. He is the best switching defensive center in the NBA. BUT, pointing at Miami's prior defensive success with Bam at center without accounting for (1) the fact that the smallball PFs he played alongside (Crowder and Tucker) were far more dynamic defensive players than Jovic or Anderson and (2) Jimmy freakin Butler was a major part of those defenses is pointing at something that is completely different than what you're suggesting.
A lot of people thought getting LeBron and Bosh to pair with Wade was too thirsty. And then Ray Allen and Mike Miller came along. Miami resuscitated Chris Anderson...etc.
This is too silly of a false equivalency to give any more oxygen than this sentence.
You're right. It's impossible for Miami to improve its roster. It's just hopeless. What was I thinking? It's not like Miami's last 25 years isn;t littered with Miami signing vets, making improbable acquisitions, and finding productive vets and undrafted guys
Brook Lopez is gonna surprise you when he goes for WAY more than vet min (just look at what Steven Adams signed and note all the teams desperate for better C play in the NBA). Without that magic acquisition, where does that leave things?
1-2 years of KD then facing a depleted warchest and full blow up tank job where Miami has already shipped out half their picks in the season's in which Miami will be in tank mode?
It just doesnt work for me if it's not very measured in approach.
It really depends on which vets Miami can get on board. Maybe Miami trades for Claxton, J Allen, Mitchell Robinson, Myles Turner, Vucevic, Gafford...etc. Maybe Miami has to settle for Capela. Maybe Miami just decides to play Bam at center and uses Anderson more or Miami brings in Trey Lyles if Anderson is moved.
A lot of people thought getting LeBron and Bosh to pair with Wade was too thirsty. And then Ray Allen and Mike Miller came along. Miami resuscitated Chris Anderson...etc.
In any case, there are paths to creating an awesome team sans Ware and with Durant.
And I'll add:
Miami traded for Shaq, and figured it out.
Miami acquired LeBron and Bosh, and figured it out.
Miami traded for Butler (and Dragic), and figured it out.
I have faith Miami can trade for Durant and figure it out.
I have faith in that, too. Hence why I was one of the first ones pumping and defending the Durant pursuit as logical and having great upside. That doesn't mean one needs to operate in a binary capacity and suggest since I like the idea of trading for Durant I want Miami to give away anything and everything for Durant. THat's how you end up defeating the purpose and with nothing but a banner reading "Kevin Durant's Farewell Tour with the Miami Heat"
I actually do like the center free agent market this summer, there are quite a few solid options for a backup. My only wonder is if they’re going to get any clock, Bam is likely sliding to center any time Ware steps off the court with KD moving to the 4 if we get him
greg4012 wrote:legit question: did anybody see defense from Wiggins in Miami this season that moved the needle at all?
bump
His defense was not impactful. And he's inefficient offensively. Hes a poor man's Butler. When you have prime klay steph draymond, and all you need from him is to be like a better caleb Martin he has the freedom to do his thing and shine.
Remember when we beat the Celtics in 2023. Caleb was the mvp of that series. Same way wiggins was a key contributor in 2022. Hes not a bad player, he just isn't what we need. Hed def be better next to a player like booker than he was here.
Suns are gonna hold out until they can put wiggins or a similar player and claxton next to booker and also get a young player whether its via draft or prospect.
He's solid in many ways and can eat up a diet of shots that were left available in an offense lacking talent, but you optimally want him doing more ancillary things and fully locked in on defense and hustle, I agree. Maybe he still has higher impact defense in him in such a role? IDK. But, I do know that Haywood Highsmith was a far superior defender last season for Miami than Wiggins.
