Is Rudy Gobert a future HOF?

[dhsilv2]

Spoiler:

But Popovic knows his stuff, as do the people who select the Olympic guys.

DeRozan is one of the best scorers in NBA history. He'll likely pass Alex English, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, and George Gervin next year. If he scores 20ppg and plays 65 games in each of the next 3 seasons, he'll pass 30k points and Julius Erving, making him top-10 all-time.

However bad you think he is on defense, that would be an outrageous accomplishment.

I said early on he's a plus scorer and that's his value or something along those lines. That's his role and he's good at it. The problem is he's worse offensively than Gobert is defensively and he's FAR worse defensively and Gobert is offensively (and Gobert the last 2 years has been pretty darn bad offensively).

The thing with Pop was he needed someone to help them get to the playoffs and I don't think Demar is a terrible choice there, given Pop was able to turn him into an actual play maker which was wild after his Raptor days. But...that doesn't make him a guy who can be a top 3 player on a title team because of his weaknesses. I should add Pop was far more involved in player choices when the Spurs added Jefferson and that was a total disaster. Pop isn't always right about players and I"ve got nothing but respect for him.

I'll even add this. I think Demar's work ethic and ability to improve in his 30's is amazing and I respect the crap out of him for that. Just like I respect his scoring numbers.

But his defense is more negative than all his scoring...

I know you don't value plus minus but he's got 16 years in the league. His team has been better with him on the court 4 seasons and worse 12 seasons. You're claiming he's a better piece to win with than a 4x DPOY.

You're so quick to give Gobert crap, and hey...I'm ok with some crap going his way. But to put DeRozan over him is just absurd. Especially with the argument based on his 2016 playoffs...

I would never ever ever start a team with offensively challenged defensive aces, like Gobert, Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Marcus Camby, Draymond Green.

I'd much rather start with defensively-challenged elite scorers, like AI, Carmelo, DeRozan, James Harden, or Charles Barkley.

These groups of players are night and day different.

I'd start a team with Caruso over DeRozan. Charles Barkley is so far and away the obvious best pick here it's laughable, followed by Harden. At least be honest with tiers here. Nobody is saying Gobert is Harden or let alone Chuck!

But you might we well debate Michel Finley vs DeRozan vs insulting AI and Melo as being similar to him.

[SA37]

Spoiler:

I said early on he's a plus scorer and that's his value or something along those lines. That's his role and he's good at it. The problem is he's worse offensively than Gobert is defensively and he's FAR worse defensively and Gobert is offensively (and Gobert the last 2 years has been pretty darn bad offensively).

The thing with Pop was he needed someone to help them get to the playoffs and I don't think Demar is a terrible choice there, given Pop was able to turn him into an actual play maker which was wild after his Raptor days. But...that doesn't make him a guy who can be a top 3 player on a title team because of his weaknesses. I should add Pop was far more involved in player choices when the Spurs added Jefferson and that was a total disaster. Pop isn't always right about players and I"ve got nothing but respect for him.

I'll even add this. I think Demar's work ethic and ability to improve in his 30's is amazing and I respect the crap out of him for that. Just like I respect his scoring numbers.

But his defense is more negative than all his scoring...

I know you don't value plus minus but he's got 16 years in the league. His team has been better with him on the court 4 seasons and worse 12 seasons. You're claiming he's a better piece to win with than a 4x DPOY.

You're so quick to give Gobert crap, and hey...I'm ok with some crap going his way. But to put DeRozan over him is just absurd. Especially with the argument based on his 2016 playoffs...

I would never ever ever start a team with offensively challenged defensive aces, like Gobert, Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Marcus Camby, Draymond Green.

I'd much rather start with defensively-challenged elite scorers, like AI, Carmelo, DeRozan, James Harden, or Charles Barkley.

These groups of players are night and day different.

I'd start a team with Caruso over DeRozan. Charles Barkley is so far and away the obvious best pick here it's laughable, followed by Harden. At least be honest with tiers here. Nobody is saying Gobert is Harden or let alone Chuck!

But you might we well debate Michel Finley vs DeRozan vs insulting AI and Melo as being similar to him.

I was using extremes because some of the guys I mentioned as defensive aces are some of the most pathetic offensive players to play in the NBA.

I've had people on here argue Gobert is top-10/15 in the entire league. He's received MVP votes. He's been all-NBA. But I think he is a role player and his performances and impact continue to prove he's nothing but a role player. And every defensive ace I mentioned is a role player.

To me, that is what it comes down to: we're comparing role players to star players. You don't build teams around role players.

[dhsilv2]

I would never ever ever start a team with offensively challenged defensive aces, like Gobert, Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Marcus Camby, Draymond Green.

I'd much rather start with defensively-challenged elite scorers, like AI, Carmelo, DeRozan, James Harden, or Charles Barkley.

These groups of players are night and day different.

I'd start a team with Caruso over DeRozan. Charles Barkley is so far and away the obvious best pick here it's laughable, followed by Harden. At least be honest with tiers here. Nobody is saying Gobert is Harden or let alone Chuck!

But you might we well debate Michel Finley vs DeRozan vs insulting AI and Melo as being similar to him.

I was using extremes because some of the guys I mentioned as defensive aces are some of the most pathetic offensive players to play in the NBA.

I've had people on here argue Gobert is top-10/15 in the entire league. He's received MVP votes. He's been all-NBA. But I think he is a role player and his performances and impact continue to prove he's nothing but a role player. And every defensive ace I mentioned is a role player.

To me, that is what it comes down to: we're comparing role players to star players. You don't build teams around role players.

God I hate when people say "role player". Every single player in the NBA has a role. Once we stopped the 90's definition of role player being a guy who's specializes in something, the term means nothing. So you're not saying anything we can even talk about. Might as well say MJ was the best scoring role player given this.

Yes at Gobert's apex he was a top 15 player in terms of impact. He was why Utah was even a playoff team in the first place. Let alone able to get out of the first round.

Now, I used a clear word there. Impact. Maybe you don't rank players on their ability to get their team wins in the regular season. I wouldn't agree with you there, but I'm not going to argue with a different ranking based on a well defined different view point. I think you'd struggle to articulate such a view, but if you can, do it.

But then you go on to argue his "impact" doesn't show he was a top 15 player which is quantifiable wrong.

[SA37]

These groups of players are night and day different.

I'd start a team with Caruso over DeRozan. Charles Barkley is so far and away the obvious best pick here it's laughable, followed by Harden. At least be honest with tiers here. Nobody is saying Gobert is Harden or let alone Chuck!

But you might we well debate Michel Finley vs DeRozan vs insulting AI and Melo as being similar to him.

I was using extremes because some of the guys I mentioned as defensive aces are some of the most pathetic offensive players to play in the NBA.

I've had people on here argue Gobert is top-10/15 in the entire league. He's received MVP votes. He's been all-NBA. But I think he is a role player and his performances and impact continue to prove he's nothing but a role player. And every defensive ace I mentioned is a role player.

To me, that is what it comes down to: we're comparing role players to star players. You don't build teams around role players.

God I hate when people say "role player". Every single player in the NBA has a role. Once we stopped the 90's definition of role player being a guy who's specializes in something, the term means nothing. So you're not saying anything we can even talk about. Might as well say MJ was the best scoring role player given this.

Yes at Gobert's apex he was a top 15 player in terms of impact. He was why Utah was even a playoff team in the first place. Let alone able to get out of the first round.

Now, I used a clear word there. Impact. Maybe you don't rank players on their ability to get their team wins in the regular season. I wouldn't agree with you there, but I'm not going to argue with a different ranking based on a well defined different view point. I think you'd struggle to articulate such a view, but if you can, do it.

But then you go on to argue his "impact" doesn't show he was a top 15 player which is quantifiable wrong.

That should tell you that "impact" is a garbage stat, like +/-

[NZB2323]

He was the best player on a pretty pedestrian Raptors team that made the ECF in 15'-16'. Then the Raptors just kept running into Cleveland in the 2nd round. But all those Raptors teams were 50+ win teams, including 56 in 15'-16' and 59 in 17-18' and DeRozan continued to be the most important teams on the Raptors. (He was 8th in MVP voting and all-NBA 2nd team in 17'-18', he was all-NBA 3rd team in 16'-17')

But sure..insane!

No he wasn't! He was never close to Lowry as a player dude!

DeRozan has been all-NBA 3 times v 1 for Lowry. Both have 6 all-star appearances. DeRozan has received MVP votes 3 times versus 1 for Lowry. The verdict is pretty clear.

Even if we allow for Lowry being the better player, DeRozan would have comfortably been the 2nd best.

Every advanced stat shows Lowry was better in the playoffs, and the biggest weakness of advanced stats is they don’t account for defense well.

Gobert has consistently been on 50+ win teams, and every advanced stat shows Gobert is better in the playoffs, and the biggest weakness of advanced stats is they don’t account for defense well.

You say Derozan kept running into Lebron, but he also lost to the 2014 Nets and 2015 Wizards in the first round.

[SA37]

No he wasn't! He was never close to Lowry as a player dude!

DeRozan has been all-NBA 3 times v 1 for Lowry. Both have 6 all-star appearances. DeRozan has received MVP votes 3 times versus 1 for Lowry. The verdict is pretty clear.

Even if we allow for Lowry being the better player, DeRozan would have comfortably been the 2nd best.

Every advanced stat shows Lowry was better in the playoffs, and the biggest weakness of advanced stats is they don’t account for defense well.

Gobert has consistently been on 50+ win teams, and every advanced stat shows Gobert is better in the playoffs, and the biggest weakness of advanced stats is they don’t account for defense well.

You say Derozan kept running into Lebron, but he also lost to the 2014 Nets and 2015 Wizards in the first round.

Advanced stats, +/-, impact...you choose a team that way and you'll end up with:

Gobert
D Green
J McDaniels
M Smart
J Holiday

or something to that effect.

If you watch basketball, you'll end up with a real group of top players, and they'll smoke those guys.

[dhsilv2]

I was using extremes because some of the guys I mentioned as defensive aces are some of the most pathetic offensive players to play in the NBA.

I've had people on here argue Gobert is top-10/15 in the entire league. He's received MVP votes. He's been all-NBA. But I think he is a role player and his performances and impact continue to prove he's nothing but a role player. And every defensive ace I mentioned is a role player.

To me, that is what it comes down to: we're comparing role players to star players. You don't build teams around role players.

God I hate when people say "role player". Every single player in the NBA has a role. Once we stopped the 90's definition of role player being a guy who's specializes in something, the term means nothing. So you're not saying anything we can even talk about. Might as well say MJ was the best scoring role player given this.

Yes at Gobert's apex he was a top 15 player in terms of impact. He was why Utah was even a playoff team in the first place. Let alone able to get out of the first round.

Now, I used a clear word there. Impact. Maybe you don't rank players on their ability to get their team wins in the regular season. I wouldn't agree with you there, but I'm not going to argue with a different ranking based on a well defined different view point. I think you'd struggle to articulate such a view, but if you can, do it.

But then you go on to argue his "impact" doesn't show he was a top 15 player which is quantifiable wrong.

That should tell you that "impact" is a garbage stat, like +/-

Anyone using any eye test would tell you gobert had to 15 impact. If anyone couldn't see it with their eyes, I'd assume their eyes are garbage.

But the stats were good enough to beat vegas for years before vegas got ahold of them. I'd say plus minus is about as proven as anything there is. Anyone debating it in 2025 is ignorant or has a bias so big I can't really understand it. MIght as well be here debating for a flat earth.

I'm fully open to someone saying Gobert might have top 15 impact but he wasn't a top 15 player. But you're dead on arrival if you think he didn't have top 15 impact. And you can't crap on Gobert's weakness's and then argue for DeRozan's trash defense and play making in toronto. Like dude...do you even watch basketball?

Just so you know it's 100 to 94 in the game right now. We got a great one going on. Turn the game on!

[NZB2323]

DeRozan has been all-NBA 3 times v 1 for Lowry. Both have 6 all-star appearances. DeRozan has received MVP votes 3 times versus 1 for Lowry. The verdict is pretty clear.

Even if we allow for Lowry being the better player, DeRozan would have comfortably been the 2nd best.

Every advanced stat shows Lowry was better in the playoffs, and the biggest weakness of advanced stats is they don’t account for defense well.

Gobert has consistently been on 50+ win teams, and every advanced stat shows Gobert is better in the playoffs, and the biggest weakness of advanced stats is they don’t account for defense well.

You say Derozan kept running into Lebron, but he also lost to the 2014 Nets and 2015 Wizards in the first round.

Advanced stats, +/-, impact...you choose a team that way and you'll end up with:

Gobert
D Green
J McDaniels
M Smart
J Holiday

or something to that effect.

If you watch basketball, you'll end up with a real group of top players, and they'll smoke those guys.

Pick players that have worse on/off, PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, and VORP that would smoke them.

[NZB2323]

DeRozan has been all-NBA 3 times v 1 for Lowry. Both have 6 all-star appearances. DeRozan has received MVP votes 3 times versus 1 for Lowry. The verdict is pretty clear.

Even if we allow for Lowry being the better player, DeRozan would have comfortably been the 2nd best.

Every advanced stat shows Lowry was better in the playoffs, and the biggest weakness of advanced stats is they don’t account for defense well.

Gobert has consistently been on 50+ win teams, and every advanced stat shows Gobert is better in the playoffs, and the biggest weakness of advanced stats is they don’t account for defense well.

You say Derozan kept running into Lebron, but he also lost to the 2014 Nets and 2015 Wizards in the first round.

Advanced stats, +/-, impact...you choose a team that way and you'll end up with:

Gobert
D Green
J McDaniels
M Smart
J Holiday

or something to that effect.

If you watch basketball, you'll end up with a real group of top players, and they'll smoke those guys.

Jokic, Giannis, SGA, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kareem, Curry, Wilt, and Duncan are the players with the best advanced stats. They blow those guys out of the water.

[SA37]

Every advanced stat shows Lowry was better in the playoffs, and the biggest weakness of advanced stats is they don’t account for defense well.

Gobert has consistently been on 50+ win teams, and every advanced stat shows Gobert is better in the playoffs, and the biggest weakness of advanced stats is they don’t account for defense well.

You say Derozan kept running into Lebron, but he also lost to the 2014 Nets and 2015 Wizards in the first round.

Advanced stats, +/-, impact...you choose a team that way and you'll end up with:

Gobert
D Green
J McDaniels
M Smart
J Holiday

or something to that effect.

If you watch basketball, you'll end up with a real group of top players, and they'll smoke those guys.

Jokic, Giannis, SGA, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kareem, Curry, Wilt, and Duncan are the players with the best advanced stats. They blow those guys out of the water.

Never heard of them

No idea what their advanced stats are, but :

KAT
Sabonis
DeRozan
Harden
Lillard

I think those 5 smoke the 5 I previously listed.

I tried to stick to 20+ppg scorers who are not known for their defense. The exception is Sabonis, who averaged 19ppg. You could replace him with F Wagner or P Siakam who averaged 20+ppg last year.

It's a damn shame we can't actually get them to play a real game. It would be fun to actually put the theory to the test!

[Castle Black]

It's the NBA, brother... Everyone's a Hall of Famer in this league. The NBA HOF is BY FAR the easiest to get into of the 4 major American sports. Rudy will absolutely get in with his 4 DPOY Awards, despite the fact that he's one of the worst offensive players I've ever seen in my life. Not even a question.

[SA37]

It's the NBA, brother... Everyone's a Hall of Famer in this league. The NBA HOF is BY FAR the easiest to get into of the 4 major American sports. Rudy will absolutely get in with his 4 DPOY Awards, despite the fact that he's one of the worst offensive players I've ever seen in my life.

Yeah. As I've said, given the criteria and who has already been let in, he's def going to get in.

As overrated as I think he is, he's still a productive basketball player and one of the most successful to come out of France.

Advanced stats have given data-driven fans fuel to pretend like they know something everyone else doesn't. They get to call people who aren't "in the know" casuals and they can pretend that they're smarter than the average fan.

It's led tovthe glorification of role players like Draymond Green, Gobert, Jrue Holiday and so on, but it has made some role players exponentially valuable in the right setting (Ben Wallace, for example).

[NZB2323]

Advanced stats, +/-, impact...you choose a team that way and you'll end up with:

Gobert
D Green
J McDaniels
M Smart
J Holiday

or something to that effect.

If you watch basketball, you'll end up with a real group of top players, and they'll smoke those guys.

Jokic, Giannis, SGA, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kareem, Curry, Wilt, and Duncan are the players with the best advanced stats. They blow those guys out of the water.

Never heard of them

No idea what their advanced stats are, but :

KAT
Sabonis
DeRozan
Harden
Lillard

I think those 5 smoke the 5 I previously listed.

I tried to stick to 20+ppg scorers who are not known for their defense. The exception is Sabonis, who averaged 19ppg. You could replace him with F Wagner or P Siakam who averaged 20+ppg last year.

It's a damn shame we can't actually get them to play a real game. It would be fun to actually put the theory to the test!

Sabonis: 22.9 PER, 10.1 WS, .199 WS/48, 5.2 BPM, 4.4 VORP, +5.6 on/off

Siakam: 19.2 PER, 7.5 WS, .142 WS/48, 1.7 BPM, 2.4 VORP, +11.0 on/off

KAT: 23.4 PER, 10.1 WS, .193 WS/48, 3.6 BPM, 3.5 VORP, +5.6 on/off

Harden: 20.0 PER, 8.3 WS, .143 WS/48, 4.3 BPM, 4.4 VORP, +4.2 on/off

Lillard: 21.3 PER, 7.6 WS, .175 WS/48, 4.0 BPM, 3.2 VORP, -4.1 on/off

Jrue Holiday: 13.5 PER, 5.1 WS, .130 WS/48, 0.7 BPM, 1.3 VORP, -0.7 on/off

Marcus Smart: 14.0 PER, 0.3 WS, .046 WS/48, -1.9 BPM, 0.0 VORP, didn’t play enough games to have a large enough sample size for on/off

Draymond Green: 12.4 PER, 3.7 WS, .088 WS/48, 0.5 BPM, 1.3 VORP, +6.7 on/off

McDaniels: 13.3 PER, 6.3 WS, .115 WS/48, 0.0 BPM, 1.4 VORP, -3.8 on/off

Gobert: 18.3 PER, 10.1 WS, .204 WS/48, 1.9 BPM, 2.4 VORP, +4.1 on/off

Derozan in the playoffs: 16.4 PER, .019 WS/48, -0.8 BPM, 1.2 VORP, -11.0 on/off

You picked players with better stats, and you can see that Gobert is not in the same class as the guys you put him in, and he’s much better than Derozan in the playoffs.

The biggest weakness of advanced stats is they do a poor job accounting for defense, where Gobert is superior to Derozan.

Even if these stats are too “advanced” for you, his regular stats suck.

If TS% is too advanced for you, he shoots 41.8% in the playoffs.

Or you could use the eye test and see him suck in the playoffs. If you use the eye test with Gobert, you’d see his defense against Jokic, Luka, LeBron, Durant, and Booker.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

Don't see how he can't be. As good as players like Curry and Durant are offensively. Thats how good Rudy is defensively

[Optms]

What’s the argument against him being in the HOF?

The argument is simply that ''he aint that good'', which is trust me bro argument. I don't get why people hate Gobert so much, when Ben Wallace was beloved, and Ben was even more inept offensively, no one doubted his impact. Maybe it is just the title?

Ben Wallace never was preyed upon by schemes. He could actually switch on to smaller players while still guarding behemoths like Shaq, Duncan and KG.

Gobert is limited in his defensive excellence. Has already been cooked several times by guards and bigs. I know what you are trying to say but he's not even in the same stratosphere as prime Ben Wallace. Put all of the elite defensive players of the early 00's in today's game, and Gobert never even sniffs a DPOY.

[Laimbeer]

The HOF doesn't mean a damn thing given some that get in.

[Lakers In 5]

The HOF doesn't mean a damn thing given some that get in.

Does not matter. Even if they retroactively raised the standards, there is no way a 4x DPoY and multiple international medalist does not get in.

[NZB2323]

What’s the argument against him being in the HOF?

The argument is simply that ''he aint that good'', which is trust me bro argument. I don't get why people hate Gobert so much, when Ben Wallace was beloved, and Ben was even more inept offensively, no one doubted his impact. Maybe it is just the title?

Ben Wallace never was preyed upon by schemes. He could actually switch on to smaller players while still guarding behemoths like Shaq, Duncan and KG.

Gobert is limited in his defensive excellence. Has already been cooked several times by guards and bigs. I know what you are trying to say but he's not even in the same stratosphere as prime Ben Wallace. Put all of the elite defensive players of the early 00's in today's game, and Gobert never even sniffs a DPOY.

Mutumbo won DPOTY and got cooked by Shaq. Ron Artest won DPOTY and got cooked by Rip Hamilton. Gobert has successfully defended and beat Jokic, Luka, LeBron, Durant, Butler, Westbrook, PG13, and Morant in the playoffs.

Players today are much better at shooting 3s than they were in 2002. It makes it harder for a center to defend the paint and the 3 point line at the same time.

I’m not saying he’s better than Ben Wallace, but they played in different eras and conferences. The 2002 Celtics offense doesn’t compare to the 2025 Thunder offense.

[NyKnicks1714]

What’s the argument against him being in the HOF?

The argument is simply that ''he aint that good'', which is trust me bro argument. I don't get why people hate Gobert so much, when Ben Wallace was beloved, and Ben was even more inept offensively, no one doubted his impact. Maybe it is just the title?

Ben Wallace never was preyed upon by schemes. He could actually switch on to smaller players while still guarding behemoths like Shaq, Duncan and KG.

Gobert is limited in his defensive excellence. Has already been cooked several times by guards and bigs. I know what you are trying to say but he's not even in the same stratosphere as prime Ben Wallace. Put all of the elite defensive players of the early 00's in today's game, and Gobert never even sniffs a DPOY.

Not that Ben Wallace would have been exploited the way Gobert has been, but he never had to face offenses like that. And a player like Mutombo would have been cooked just as badly.

[JonFromVA]

Annual reminder: It's the basketball HOF, not the NBA HOF. All basketball accomplishments are taken in to account: FIBA, NCAA, EuroLeague, ABA, whatever.

But based on just Rudy's NBA accomplishments, BBR has him ranked at just a 27% HOF Probability.