Who wins? 2011 Mavs to 2019 Raptors

[MrGoat]

Recency bias at it's finest. Raptors needed a game winner by Kawhi in game 7 to potentially avoid Joel Embiid advancing to the third round and then Golden State fell apart with injuries in the Finals.

Dallas took out fully healthy Portland, swept the two time defending champs healthy again, sent a stacked healthy OKC team home in 5, and downed the Big 3 healthy Heat who went on to win the next two Finals. And never even needed a game 7 to do it

Those Mavs would have been a 60+ win team too if it wasn't for a midseason stretch where Dirk uncharacteristically missed 9 games with injury and they went 2-7 without him. The only reason they were considered underdogs was because of how insanely disrespected they were at the time largely thanks to the reffing Mark Cuban had brought upon the team in previous seasons.

The only reason to think the Raptors would win would be because they were in the 3 point era and would still take way more 3s than the Mavs despite the Mavs being one of the greatest 3 point shooting teams ever assembled at the time. Dirk could render even the greatest defenders helpless, though. The idea that Kawhi could even slow that 7 footer with his flamingo fadeaway down is laughable. Kawhi would have to deal with Shawn Marion dogging him with Tyson Chandler protecting the rim on the other hand

that Sixers team was stacked. They didn't have the depth of the Raptors but they had the better starting 5 imho.

Simmons
Covington-Redick
Butler
Harris
Embiid-Saric

And the OKC team with 3 future MVPS that was supposed to run the Mavs off the court with their athleticism but got dismissed in 5 wasn't stacked? The Mavs ruined OKC's potential dynasty right there. They swept the defending 2 times champs and humiliated the champs of the next two seasons. Dirk would've made hoes out of Kawhi, Siakam, and Gasol

[Daddy 801]

No one on the Raps is stopping that version of Dirk.

[MrBigShot]

2011 mavs were a team greater than the sum of their parts, led by an all time great on a mission. They beat more talented teams than the 2019 raps on their way to winning in 2011.

[SonicMcMahon]

Dallas had the more impressive championship in terms of the road to get there. But I think that Raptors team was better. They were just so stacked and found amazing synergy, especially in the last 2 rounds. Kawhi was a god in the first two rounds. Then, as Kawhi slowed a little, Lowry really stepped up, Van Vleet became a flame-thrower, and the whole squad played at a very high level.

I'm biased, but I give this one to the Raps.

Dallas had a crazy road, but think the Raptors road is really underrated.

They faced a juggernaut Sixers team with prime Embiid, Butler, Simmons, and Harris in the 2nd round.

Then they faced the Bucks with prime Giannis, Middleton, Lopez, Brogdon and Bledsoe, the team that had the best record in the NBA with the MVP.

Raps road was definitely 'underrated', I agree.

That was the best Sixers team by a wide margin, I believe. Ben hadn't gotten weird yet (there were signs, but he was still a + contributor), and Jimmy, as we all know, is legit.

Those Bucks were also very very good.

Lastly, the Warriors were always going to be a rough out for any team, regardless of all the dents and bruises they had suffered going into the finals. (If Durant had played though, I think it's unlikely Raps win... but that team was ~cheat-code levels, so no shame)

So yes, definitely a hard road which gets forgotten. And the Raps were really resilient. I remember it alerting me to just how 'not-close' previous Raptors playoff runs really were, even the 2016 CF run. The amount of blows you have to take and keep pressing is crazy. Championships are hard!

All that said, I do think the Dallas road was still tougher.

[oldncreaky]

Funniest comment was that the 1983 Sixers were a "one hit wonder" when they made the Finals from the tougher conference in 3 out of 4 years!

Any Finals between champions would probably be close, but I'd have the Raptors in 6 or 7

Maybe that was the wrong label to use for the 83 Sixers since they were knocking on the door since 77’ with multiple great seasons but they were a one hit wonder in terms of winning titles specially when their title defense was such a joke in 84’.

But that was my point, the 19 Raptors aren’t even in the same convo with teams that dominated the season from start to finish like the 83 Sixers, 71 Bucks or 72 Lakers.

But the comparison in the OP is between the 2019 Raptors the 2011 Mavs, not with 3 all-time great teams -- each of which happened to only win 1 championship in their respective runs!

In 2011, Mavs won 55 games, and 162 wins in the preceding 3 seasons. In 2019, Raptors won 58 games, and 166 wins in the preceding 3 seasons. Adjust about 1 or 2 games per season for the difference between the WC and WC, and you've got 2 teams that are very close -- both very good and worthy champions, but neither should be mentioned in the handful of great one-time champions.

[Inspektor1312]

Dallas, every day of the week.

[tsherkin]

No one on the Raps is stopping that version of Dirk.

Kawhi would do about as well as any other defender on him. In his actual run, Dirk had a bunch of grotesquely bad first-halves which are only forgotten because he had some big second halves after them while his teammates held down the fort. Worth recalling.

[mdonnelly1989]

No one on the Raps is stopping that version of Dirk.

Kawhi would do about as well as any other defender on him. In his actual run, Dirk had a bunch of grotesquely bad first-halves which are only forgotten because he had some big second halves after them while his teammates held down the fort. Worth recalling.

Dirk V Kawhi on total impact is IMO what this series comes down too. And DAMN imo thats a 7 game series then.

Dirk was more dominant offensively, but factoring in Kawhis defense.

[tsherkin]

Dirk V Kawhi on total impact is IMO what this series comes down too. And DAMN imo thats a 7 game series then.

Dirk was more dominant offensively, but factoring in Kawhis defense.

It'd be a great series, unquestionably.

The real trick is how well Dallas could hold up defensively against Toronto in those halves where Dick was bricking. That's what would ultimately decide the series for me, and I like the chances of what Toronto had that year versus even the strong performances from what Dallas had, you know? But not enough to beat them prior to a deciding Game 7, heh.

[Jadoogar]

No one on the Raps is stopping that version of Dirk.

idk raptors would be better equipped than most. Kawhi and Siakam as primary options. Ibaka and Gasol as help defenders.

[ShootersShoot]

No one on the Raps is stopping that version of Dirk.

idk raptors would be better equipped than most. Kawhi and Siakam as primary options. Ibaka and Gasol as help defenders.

Marion v kawhi would be a very interesting matchup as well. But yea, kawhi is exactly the type of defender that dirk had struggled with in the past.

[realball]

No one on the Raps is stopping that version of Dirk.

Who on the Mavs is stopping Kawhi?

If there's anyone who could guard '11 Dirk, it would be '19 Kawhi. Not to mention Marc mf'ing Gasol.

[ShootersShoot]

No one on the Raps is stopping that version of Dirk.

Who on the Mavs is stopping Kawhi?

If there's anyone who could guard '11 Dirk, it would be '19 Kawhi. Not to mention Marc mf'ing Gasol.

Tbf, the mavs basically shut lebron down in 2011.

[liquidswords]

Im really critical of the '19 raps (won mostly because of the catastrophic injuries GSW had) but this is a no contest..Raps in 5-6

That version of Kawhi would have terrorized Dirk. Also, the Raps had the size and length to be able to cause fits for the rest of the Mavs offense.

[ScrantonBulls]

No one on the Raps is stopping that version of Dirk.

Who on the Mavs is stopping Kawhi?

If there's anyone who could guard '11 Dirk, it would be '19 Kawhi. Not to mention Marc mf'ing Gasol.

Tbf, the mavs basically shut lebron down in 2011.

That was a very flawed team though. It was the big 3 surrounded by trash. No spacing. The Mavs focused solely on LeBron and let Wade go off. The Raptors had way better depth and supporting players.

[Texas Chuck]

No one on the Raps is stopping that version of Dirk.

Kawhi would do about as well as any other defender on him. In his actual run, Dirk had a bunch of grotesquely bad first-halves which are only forgotten because he had some big second halves after them while his teammates held down the fort. Worth recalling.

Tell me the bunch? I know game 6 of the Finals was bad from a shot making standpoint, but I'm not recalling a bunch more.

[ShootersShoot]

Who on the Mavs is stopping Kawhi?

If there's anyone who could guard '11 Dirk, it would be '19 Kawhi. Not to mention Marc mf'ing Gasol.

Tbf, the mavs basically shut lebron down in 2011.

That was a very flawed team though. It was the big 3 surrounded by trash. No spacing. The Mavs focused solely on LeBron and let Wade go off. The Raptors had way better depth and supporting players.

Very true, but those mavs had a very good defensive core. Stopping lebron under any circumstance is nothing to sneeze at and its not like he had no help. He was in his prime playing next to two perennial all stars

[tsherkin]

No one on the Raps is stopping that version of Dirk.

Kawhi would do about as well as any other defender on him. In his actual run, Dirk had a bunch of grotesquely bad first-halves which are only forgotten because he had some big second halves after them while his teammates held down the fort. Worth recalling.

Tell me the bunch? I know game 6 of the Finals was bad from a shot making standpoint, but I'm not recalling a bunch more.

Only looking at halves where he shot under 40% (except that G3 vs OKC), because he had a couple of 4/10 performances, but those aren't what I'd call "grotesquely bad," of course. G4 in the Finals is an example (4/10), and he had 2 or 3 other such first halves, but again... magnitude.

G1 vs Portland, 4/12 in the first half. 5 rebounds, 4 turnovers
G2 vs Portland, 3/10 FG
G3 vs Portland (switched it up, this is second half) 4/11 FG (36.4% FG)
G4 vs Portland (2nd half) 3/8 FG (37.5% FG)

G3 vs OKC, 2/5 for 4 points, then 5/16 (31.3% FG) in the second half

G1 vs MIA, 3/9 in the 2nd half
G2 vs MIA, 3/10 in the 1st half, 7/12 in the 2nd half
G5 vs MIA, 3/9 in the 2nd half (6/6 at the line and hit his only 3, though)
G6 vs MIA, 1/12 in the 1st half, 8/15 in the 2nd half

So, some things worth remembering. He had 7 or 8 pretty rough first halves if you add in those 4/10 games, and a bunch of putrid second halves.

He was, by and large, incandescent beyond words against the Lakers and the Thunder, and obviously he also had some pretty large 2nd halves, only a few of which I catalogued here. It was a great run overall, it's just a little lost that he had a bunch of stinkers in first and second halves. People talk about him as if he was Lakers-series Dirk in all 4 series, and that isn't what happened, that's all I'm trying to say.

[Texas Chuck]

Spoiler:

Kawhi would do about as well as any other defender on him. In his actual run, Dirk had a bunch of grotesquely bad first-halves which are only forgotten because he had some big second halves after them while his teammates held down the fort. Worth recalling.

Tell me the bunch? I know game 6 of the Finals was bad from a shot making standpoint, but I'm not recalling a bunch more.

Only looking at halves where he shot under 40% (except that G3 vs OKC), because he had a couple of 4/10 performances, but those aren't what I'd call "grotesquely bad," of course. G4 in the Finals is an example (4/10), and he had 2 or 3 other such first halves, but again... magnitude.

G1 vs Portland, 4/12 in the first half. 5 rebounds, 4 turnovers
G2 vs Portland, 3/10 FG
G3 vs Portland (switched it up, this is second half) 4/11 FG (36.4% FG)
G4 vs Portland (2nd half) 3/8 FG (37.5% FG)

G3 vs OKC, 2/5 for 4 points, then 5/16 (31.3% FG) in the second half

G1 vs MIA, 3/9 in the 2nd half
G2 vs MIA, 3/10 in the 1st half, 7/12 in the 2nd half
G5 vs MIA, 3/9 in the 2nd half (6/6 at the line and hit his only 3, though)
G6 vs MIA, 1/12 in the 1st half, 8/15 in the 2nd half

So, some things worth remembering. He had 7 or 8 pretty rough first halves if you add in those 4/10 games, and a bunch of putrid second halves.

He was, by and large, incandescent beyond words against the Lakers and the Thunder, and obviously he also had some pretty large 2nd halves, only a few of which I catalogued here. It was a great run overall, it's just a little lost that he had a bunch of stinkers in first and second halves. People talk about him as if he was Lakers-series Dirk in all 4 series, and that isn't what happened, that's all I'm trying to say.

Thanks for the data.

Funny what nostalgia does for you lol. I remember that game 6 performance, but none of these others.

[1993Playoffs]

Raptors have the best player
Better more modern offense
Better defense

They win.