2025 Draft prospects - thread 3

[Red Larrivee]

Players who get comped to Draymond almost never work out. Who's the last one that did?

Give the large number of appealing options, I definitely get why some don't want CMB. Different strokes. But I was curious about this line. The types of guys I see getting the Dray comp are usually late first rounder types and its basically just a reach for a comp in a mock draft. I can't recall the last time I saw a projected lottery pick being compared to Green.

The thing is:

1. CMB and Green are not even remotely identical as players and it's so tiring seeing it as a comp.
2. CMB is a lot better than Green was at this point in their respective careers.

The sell on CMB is absolutely not asking him to be an anomaly like Draymond.

He's great defensively. Offensively, he's solid to good at mostly everything, except three-point shooting, where he's bad. But, we're not talking a jump shot that can't be fixed here.

[CobysHairpick]

This. Coming in at 70% FT for a rookie big, not worrying about that. If his three-point range remains below average, but he's a great defender, rebounder, smart player, I'll take that all day. Highest ceiling is mostly a guessing game by the time you get to 12. That's what had us drafting Tyrus Thomas and Patrick Williams anyway over more proven players. Stop with these developmental prospects that have shown nothing. We see CMB playing defense and his energy and effort. That translates.

Apologies, when I say highest ceiling I don't mean just the best athlete. Highest ceiling must include good tape and traits as well. To me, Queen has a higher ceiling based on his 3pt shooting in his last two March Madness games. As does Demin based on his good shooting performance at the Combine, and even Newell and possibly Beringer. I also like Carter Bryant's potential considering he was a scorer in high school and has underrated handles. I'd take all of them before CMB, personally.

He is high upside because he went 2-3 and 1-4 in two March Madness games???

Higher than CMB to me, yes. Give me the highest ceiling at 12 yes.

[Red Larrivee]

Think if you comp any player to any other player other than centers in the NBA and the main point of contention is "can't shoot threes", it's going to be a high failure rate. He's good at basically everything thing else on both sides of the ball. A lot of Draymond's game is high effort and IQ, those are winning talents, better than good shooting. And usually leads to improved shooting, Draymond and Jimmy Butler are similar types. They're not great shooters, but they're passable now.

Aaron Gordon, Julius Randle, Scottie Barnes, and Jalen Johnson. All undersized 4s, who weren't strong three-point shooters entering the league, who are valuable in the NBA. All of them, except really Barnes, have improved their shot.

If CMB is merely an okay three-point shooter at any point in his career, he's going to be an elite two-way PF.

[CobysHairpick]

Players who get comped to Draymond almost never work out. Who's the last one that did?

Give the large number of appealing options, I definitely get why some don't want CMB. Different strokes. But I was curious about this line. The types of guys I see getting the Dray comp are usually late first rounder types and its basically just a reach for a comp in a mock draft. I can't recall the last time I saw a projected lottery pick being compared to Green.

The thing is:

1. CMB and Green are not even remotely identical as players and it's so tiring seeing it as a comp.
2. CMB is a lot better than Green was at this point in their respective careers.

The sell on CMB is absolutely not asking him to be an anomaly like Draymond.

He's great defensively. Offensively, he's solid to good at mostly everything, except three-point shooting, where he's bad. But, we're not talking a jump shot that can't be fixed here.

I'm pretty sure the Draymond comp comes from what CMB's role in the NBA would be, not what they did in college.

[Red Larrivee]

I'm pretty sure the Draymond comp comes from what CMB's role in the NBA would be, not what they did in college.

Their roles wouldn't be the same either. For the bulk of his career, Draymond has been a non-scoring and non-shooting threat. His biggest value on offense is what he brings as a hub with his passing.

I keep saying it, but for some reason people hear "can't shoot 3s" as "can't score". CMB is a legitimate offensive threat without a three-point shot. He has a legitimate handle, can get by his man, operate from the high post or the low block, and he can finish. He's a better passer than the TOV numbers show playing as the lead guy on a team of players that nobody can name.

Comparing CMB to Draymond in role or skill is disregarding so much of what CMB actually does well in games.

[DuckIII]

Players who get comped to Draymond almost never work out. Who's the last one that did?

Give the large number of appealing options, I definitely get why some don't want CMB. Different strokes. But I was curious about this line. The types of guys I see getting the Dray comp are usually late first rounder types and its basically just a reach for a comp in a mock draft. I can't recall the last time I saw a projected lottery pick being compared to Green.

The thing is:

1. CMB and Green are not even remotely identical as players and it's so tiring seeing it as a comp.
2. CMB is a lot better than Green was at this point in their respective careers.

The sell on CMB is absolutely not asking him to be an anomaly like Draymond.

He's great defensively. Offensively, he's solid to good at mostly everything, except three-point shooting, where he's bad. But, we're not talking a jump shot that can't be fixed here.

Completely agree. To be clear, I don't have Green as his comp. He's just who he is, and I love his game.

[Jcool0]

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[drosestruts]

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I wouldn't associate Jase nor Egor with the quote - "he doesn't know how to play yet"

[Infinity2152]

Give the large number of appealing options, I definitely get why some don't want CMB. Different strokes. But I was curious about this line. The types of guys I see getting the Dray comp are usually late first rounder types and its basically just a reach for a comp in a mock draft. I can't recall the last time I saw a projected lottery pick being compared to Green.

The thing is:

1. CMB and Green are not even remotely identical as players and it's so tiring seeing it as a comp.
2. CMB is a lot better than Green was at this point in their respective careers.

The sell on CMB is absolutely not asking him to be an anomaly like Draymond.

He's great defensively. Offensively, he's solid to good at mostly everything, except three-point shooting, where he's bad. But, we're not talking a jump shot that can't be fixed here.

Completely agree. To be clear, I don't have Green as his comp. He's just who he is, and I love his game.

Me too. We draft CMB, I think there's VERY little chance we're disappointed. He's the type of player everybody's going to love if he gets here. watching these Finals, I'm thirsty for an active defensive player. All we have is guys shooting 3's.

[Chi town]

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Context?

[drosestruts]

Player archetype is a thing I try to think about during the draft

I at times have been tantalized by the athleticism of Joan Beringer, but then think to myself, well we can just sign (and for cheap) a Kai Jones or Jaxson Hayes if we want an uber athletic big man who's still a project.


I have similar thoughts about CMB - he's an undersized defender. We can just sign Torrey Craig or Ziaire Williams or Bruce Brown or Matisse Thybulle (if he opts out) or Javonte Green.

The players in these archetypes are readily available.

Now what we can't go sign (due to financial reasons and scarcity in availability) are players like:

Kasparas Jakucionis
Nique Clifford
Egor Demin
Ace Bailey
Kon Knueppel
Ben Saraf
Will Reilly
Ryan Kalkbrenner


There's player potential and then there's the potential/impact of different player types

It's just hard for me to get excited about a player who's potential role can be filled by a vet min player

[DuckIII]

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Is Jase the guess or the answer? I assumed the answer was Beringer, who is actually one of my favorites.

EDIT: Its the answer. A little hard to accept at face value, actually. But as far as I'm concerned good news. Hate the idea of him for Chicago.

[Guru]

No Ceilings mock had us trading with OKC from 12 to 15 and 24 and taking Derik Queen and Rasheer Fleming. I cannot tell you how elated I would be.

[Guru]

Here is my big board

1 F-Cooper Flagg-Duke

2 G-Dylan Harper-Rutgers

3 G-VJ Edgecombe-Baylor

4 W-Ace Bailey-Rutgers

5 C-Derik Queen-Maryland

6 G-Tre Johnson-Texas
7 PG-Kasparas Jakuciois-Illinois
8 G-Jeremiah Fears-Oklahoma

9 F-Collin Murray-Boyles-S Carolina
10 F-Rasheer Fleming-St Joseph's

11 F-Carter Bryant-Arizona
12 F-Asa Newell-Georgia

13 W-Nique Clifford-Colorado St
14 F-Adou Thiero-Arkansas

15 F-Noa Essengue-Germany
16 F-Noah Penda-France

17 C-Danny Wolf-Michigan
18 C-Maxime Raynaud-Stanford

19 C-Ryan Kalkbrenner-Creighton
20 C-Khaman Maluach-Duke

21 F-Will Richard-Florida
22 W-Kon Kneuppel-Duke

23 C-Thomas Sorber-Georgetown

24 C-Joan Beringer-Slovenia
25 F-Cedric Coward-Washington St
26 F-Drake Powell-UNC
27 F-Hugo Gonzalez-Spain
28 G-Nolan Traore-France
29 C-Yanic Nedierhauser-Penn St
30 C-Hansen Yang-China
31 F-Alex Toohey-Australia
32 F-Johni Broome-Auburn
33 F-Jonathan Pierre-Belmont
34 F-Liam McNeeley-Uconn
35 G-Ben Saraf-Israel
36 W-Will Riley-Illinois
37 F-Obinna Anochili-Killen-Marshall
38 G-Max Shulga-VCU

39 G-RJ Felton-E Carolina
40 G-Jase Richardson-Michigan St
41 G-Egor Demin-BYU

42 C-Rocco Zikarsky-Australia
43 G-Owen Foxwell-Australia
44 Amari Williams-Kentucky

[Red Larrivee]

Player archetype is a thing I try to think about during the draft

I at times have been tantalized by the athleticism of Joan Beringer, but then think to myself, well we can just sign (and for cheap) a Kai Jones or Jaxson Hayes if we want an uber athletic big man who's still a project.


I have similar thoughts about CMB - he's an undersized defender. We can just sign Torrey Craig or Ziaire Williams or Bruce Brown or Matisse Thybulle (if he opts out) or Javonte Green.

I'm begging people to stop pretending that CMB is an one dimensional defender with little to no value on offense. Javonte Green?

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

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Context?

Of all the legitimate criticisms one might have of Jase as a prospect, “doesn’t know how to play” is bizarre. He has the most complete shot chart in the entire class.

[DuckIII]

I have similar thoughts about CMB - he's an undersized defender. We can just sign Torrey Craig or Ziaire Williams or Bruce Brown or Matisse Thybulle (if he opts out) or Javonte Green.

The players in these archetypes are readily available.

First, its a reasonable approach. The #1 reason I don't want Asa Newell is not because I think he'll bust. Its because I think even if he reaches his ceiling, he's just such an ordinary prototype lacking in any truly unique elements that he will be the type of guy you can just sign in free agency.

Second, I think you need to spend a significant amount more time watching CMB. Those comps are really poor, frankly. As Red noted earlier, CMB can't shoot threes but he is definitely a scoring threat with the ball. He's also a playmaker for others. And he's elite defensively, not just a try hard. I reject the Draymond comp as well, but yours are much, much further off the mark.

[nomorezorro]

that jase quote is from a college assistant, so not necessarily reflective of what actual nba personnel think of him

i don't really care for those kinds of Anonymous Scout-type pre-draft articles in general, tbh. it was novel when bob mcginn was doing it for the NFL a decade+ ago, but over time you realize it's less "whoa this is the real deal unvarnished insight from experts!" and more "damn there are a lot of cranks working in the scouting orbit, and the opinion of one or two guys willing to talk to a reporter under a veil of anonymity doesn't really mean that much"

[CobysHairpick]

I'm pretty sure the Draymond comp comes from what CMB's role in the NBA would be, not what they did in college.

Their roles wouldn't be the same either. For the bulk of his career, Draymond has been a non-scoring and non-shooting threat. His biggest value on offense is what he brings as a hub with his passing.

I keep saying it, but for some reason people hear "can't shoot 3s" as "can't score". CMB is a legitimate offensive threat without a three-point shot. He has a legitimate handle, can get by his man, operate from the high post or the low block, and he can finish. He's a better passer than the TOV numbers show playing as the lead guy on a team of players that nobody can name.

Comparing CMB to Draymond in role or skill is disregarding so much of what CMB actually does well in games.

Again, I'm well aware of CMB's game and the Draymond comp comes from teams projecting that CMB won't be the first or second scoring option on a good team, nor should he be. IMO, he should settle in at around a 15ppg scorer if he doesn't develop any further.

The (young) Randle comp is much more accurate scoring wise, but again, I don't think teams are viewing CMB as a primary scorer in the same vein that Randle is, especially if the 3pt shot never develops. But teams do know that the defense and passing/hub playstyle will translate at minimum and thus comes the Draymond comp since that is the role he'll most likely start with.

[DuckIII]

Think if you comp any player to any other player other than centers in the NBA and the main point of contention is "can't shoot threes", it's going to be a high failure rate. He's good at basically everything thing else on both sides of the ball. A lot of Draymond's game is high effort and IQ, those are winning talents, better than good shooting. And usually leads to improved shooting, Draymond and Jimmy Butler are similar types. They're not great shooters, but they're passable now.

Aaron Gordon, Julius Randle, Scottie Barnes, and Jalen Johnson. All undersized 4s, who weren't strong three-point shooters entering the league, who are valuable in the NBA. All of them, except really Barnes, have improved their shot.

If CMB is merely an okay three-point shooter at any point in his career, he's going to be an elite two-way PF.

Since we are still on CMB comps, if we have to pick one I think you identified the right guy in there: Julius Randle. But with zero 3 ball and significantly better defense.